Guild icon
Official Helium Community
⸺ HIP-Archive ⸺ / hip-58-poc-distance-limit
Avatar
## HIP 58: PoC Distance Limit - Author(s): @hashc0de , @mrpatrick1991, et al - Start Date: 2022-04-02 - Category: Technical - Original HIP PR: https://github.com/helium/HIP/pull/381 - Tracking Issue: https://github.com/helium/HIP/issues/384 - Status: In Discussion ## Summary The Proof-of-Coverage incentive model is crucial to the ongoing growth of the Helium Network. As the network grows, efforts to prevent Proof-of-Coverage gaming must be bolstered in order to encourage honest Hotspot deployment. One known gaming technique works by altering the information provided by beacon and witness packets to increase reported distances. This can make it appear that Hotspots provide coverage where they do not. An effective way to reduce the impact of this attack is to place an upper limit on the distance at which witnesses for hotspots will be considered valid by the blockchain and thus be considered for rewards. When PoCv11 was developed, a witness distance limit feature was written but never activated. If approved, this proposal would impose a 100 km limit to Proof-of-Coverage witnessing and this value can be modified further through governance in the future. Witnesses where the asserted distance is greater than 100 km would be marked invalid by the Challenger. This limit is further supported by the fact that most sensor deployments have a practical maximum distance of 30-50km. Although a Helium Hotspot may be able to see PoC beacons greater than 100 km, there are no current use cases at this range. # Rendered View https://github.com/helium/HIP/blob/main/0058-poc-distance-limit.md
HIP 58: PoC Distance Limit Author(s): @abhay, @mrpatrick1991, et al Start Date: 2022-04-02 Category: Technical Original HIP PR: #381 Tracking Issue: this Status: In Discussion Summary The Proof-of-...
Helium Improvement Proposals. Contribute to helium/HIP development by creating an account on GitHub.
edaatweets pinned a message to this channel. 04/04/2022 9:59 AM
Avatar
100km sounds more than fair (although I do get the occasional 150 to 200km witnesses due to the flatness of the terrain..) (edited)
10:07
When can we vote?😬
Avatar
obligatory tl;dr post PoC activity should continue to reward well placed hotspots. The current PoC mechanics allow manipulation of witness RF data at long distances and thus, we find evidence of gaming at the edges. This improvement implements a sanity check filter on Proof-of-Coverage and reduces the maximum range of PoC activity to 100km. We arrived at this number by considering that typical devices are able to be heard 30-50km away. We doubled that number to incentivize new Hotspot placements. The impact on a few legitimate witness events that are > 100km is limited as described in the dataset in the HIP. Please read up on the HIP to learn more. Open to questions here.
👍 2
Avatar
>100km witnesses are really cool to have, but don't realistically add anything to the network
Avatar
While I agree with the 100k limit and support it, 10k witness events is a relatively small sample size, that's 3 to 4 blocks worth of witnesses.
Avatar
Keep reading, there's a 4k block sample later
Avatar
150kms/200km or more would be better at least the hip wouldn't affect those who have got a got mountain location, and would only affect spoofers, as long as it can really transmit that distance why would we handicap the system just because they are currently 'no current case uses' is a terrible way to limit innovation long range applications in the future.
🙏 1
Avatar
Avatar
MoreDPS
150kms/200km or more would be better at least the hip wouldn't affect those who have got a got mountain location, and would only affect spoofers, as long as it can really transmit that distance why would we handicap the system just because they are currently 'no current case uses' is a terrible way to limit innovation long range applications in the future.
if there are long range applications in the future, then certainly we can expand the distance limit to 150km or 200km. the nice thing is that this is a chain var. we can use governance to change it the same way we're imposing it today.
👍 1
Avatar
Alex T 🇮🇹 04/04/2022 10:39 AM
I live in the flattest region of Italy and i approve of this implementation 🙂 I'll lose a few witnesses, but if it helps with combating cheaters....go for it! (edited)
Avatar
Avatar
hashc0de
Keep reading, there's a 4k block sample later
I read that, was more referring to estimating a distribution based on a relatively small sample. I ran some queries against the ETL and arrived at more or less the same values so I'll shut up now 🙂 As I've said before on this topic, great way to better align PoC with network usage 👍
🤝 2
👍 1
❤️ 1
Avatar
"Witnesses where the asserted distance is greater than 100 km would be marked invalid by the Challenger."
11:20
Why mark them invalid?
Avatar
continues to give us information. similar to marking witness too close as invalid. (edited)
Avatar
Especially in urban scenarios there are >14 witnesses per beacon
11:21
Just ignore the one over 100km and pick a closer hotspot that also received the beacon
Avatar
i guess this wasn't clear, btw. this current implementation is something that can be turned on days after a vote is completed. code is already on chain and has been since november.
👍 1
Avatar
Avatar
FezzFest
Just ignore the one over 100km and pick a closer hotspot that also received the beacon
That kills all possibility for potential analysis on distances in the future.
👆 1
Avatar
You're also preventing spoofers from causing denial of service attacks this way
Avatar
Avatar
groot
That kills all possibility for potential analysis on distances in the future.
this as well. if we do want to expand the distance in the future, we'd have the data available.
Avatar
Avatar
FezzFest
You're also preventing spoofers from causing denial of service attacks this way
They will mostly be making the remaining people happy because they will have well rewarded witness events. (edited)
Avatar
Yeah sure, a beacon with 14 invalid witnesses doesn't make the spoofers any money, but it also f*cks over the rewards for every legit hotspot in the vicinity
Avatar
Avatar
groot
They will mostly be making the remaining people happy because they will have well rewarded witness events. (edited)
Assuming the area is not dominated by spoofers
11:26
And spoofers "coverage areas" can get pretty big, as we've seen in the past
Avatar
Not really relevant here, but given enough spoofers that 5 of 14 places remain. The legit hotspots will share equal odds for those 5 spots. In the long run the legit hotspots will have an equal share of high-reward witness events within those 5 spots. Less consistent rewards, but similar to the whole 25, 18 or 14 witness beacons, it should work out the same.
Avatar
Avatar
groot
That kills all possibility for potential analysis on distances in the future.
Why? It's not because you select another witness from the pool you can't keep a record of the invalid witnesses
Avatar
Avatar
groot
Not really relevant here, but given enough spoofers that 5 of 14 places remain. The legit hotspots will share equal odds for those 5 spots. In the long run the legit hotspots will have an equal share of high-reward witness events within those 5 spots. Less consistent rewards, but similar to the whole 25, 18 or 14 witness beacons, it should work out the same.
Sure, unless you have a pool of >300 spoofers and 5 legit hotspots. Chances any of those 5 legit hotspots are selected to receive the beacon is rather low (edited)
11:30
The beacon will simply have 14 invalid witnesses and no one gets paid
Avatar
Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 04/04/2022 12:20 PM
considering the end goal = data transfer. I think this makes perfect sense. ☑
💯 1
Avatar
Make it 150 km i think that would be perfect for us all, i live on a hill and some of my witnesses are over 130km, i think 150 would be perfect.
Avatar
Make it 8.3km. None of my witnesses are further away than that.
😂 4
Avatar
Avatar
backtran
Make it 8.3km. None of my witnesses are further away than that.
🤪
Avatar
I’m sure we can bikeshed the number forever. I’d rather move to a vote if the proposal and the way the number was reached makes sense to people. This is weird one because: 1. Code is already written and ready to activate. 2. This vote would be both on the framework (a distance limit at all) and a value (100km) 3. We also assume that future proposals can change the number. Moving to a vote after 3-4 days and having a week of voting makes sense to me.
👍 5
Fizzy pinned a message to this channel. 04/04/2022 3:14 PM
Fizzy pinned a message to this channel. 04/04/2022 3:15 PM
Avatar
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 04/04/2022 3:41 PM
This hip is big stupid yo lmao 🤣
15:41
My offgrids send more data than any residential miners
15:41
They need the far witness to make them financially sound
15:42
And they cover large areas of uncovered land
15:42
So this hip would in essence kill offgrids which provide very large areas of good lorawan coverage
Avatar
At the current limit of 100km I formally dissent against this hip
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/04/2022 5:43 PM
100km is a good target for the reasons stated above. Double the realistic data transfer range (the whole point of the network), and yet still gives PoC rewards to help grow. A 100km radius is a lot of reach, even for rural off-grids.
Avatar
Avatar
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions)
They need the far witness to make them financially sound
Would love to see your hotspot account so we can look up the awesome witnesses!
Avatar
Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 04/04/2022 6:35 PM
^^ Double. Several other miner owners I know live by bays or on peninsula's or near lakes etc, and even with the clear waterways none of us see over 100Km witnesses, and we have antenna's that range from 10m + on ground level and hillsides.
Avatar
I mean what about when data transfer is important in rural areas like, package tracking etc? Its hard to incentivize people to get on when nobody is really around them and the only way for someone in a rural area to get their 'ROI' is to go with a high DBI antenna to reach the one other dude cities away
19:26
Like what is the point of restricting the coverage at all? If an antenna hits 200km, so be it
Avatar
Avatar
Mijelz
I mean what about when data transfer is important in rural areas like, package tracking etc? Its hard to incentivize people to get on when nobody is really around them and the only way for someone in a rural area to get their 'ROI' is to go with a high DBI antenna to reach the one other dude cities away
There is a very little chance that the signal of the sensor with a tiny antenna and reduced tx power would reach to 200km anyway (edited)
👆 1
Avatar
Max - Just Max 04/05/2022 12:21 AM
As the person who probably is most affected by this HIP, and loudest yeller when the 50km chainvar showed up, I'm fine with this version. 100km is a large enough distance and I'm happy we're doing this as a HIP now rather than an unannounced chain var like last time.
👍 1
🤝 1
Avatar
100km is a good start, but it won't make much difference in small countries or two nearby dense cities.
01:29
I think the distance will be reduced further sooner or later, so why not tie the distance to the transmit scale from now! Transmit scale 1.00 = 100km, 0.99 = 99km.... 0.01 = 1km (edited)
👍 1
Avatar
Avatar
Nian
I think the distance will be reduced further sooner or later, so why not tie the distance to the transmit scale from now! Transmit scale 1.00 = 100km, 0.99 = 99km.... 0.01 = 1km (edited)
Not a good ideia. A hotspot with a low transmit scale can still be providing coverage many km away, so they should still be rewarded for it
👍 1
Avatar
Avatar
ricopt5
Not a good ideia. A hotspot with a low transmit scale can still be providing coverage many km away, so they should still be rewarded for it
I know it can provide coverage (if high enough), but Transmite scale (reward scale) was introduced for a reason, and by Explorer map, it's not working as it supposed to. Someone with 0.10ts will still have 10km of coverage, which is enough for a such dense area.
Avatar
@nian it should be increased , countries like Australia the transmit strength limit here is 36DB /4Watts it is significantly stronger than other areas and those distances can be reached readily
Avatar
Avatar
MoreDPS
@nian it should be increased , countries like Australia the transmit strength limit here is 36DB /4Watts it is significantly stronger than other areas and those distances can be reached readily
Australia is 4000km, you'll still need more hotspots and off-grids to cover the needed areas. So why not distribute more Hs from now!
Avatar
Population density buddy. Nobody lives in the desert areas that make a large part of Australia
Avatar
How large are the batteries on those sensors transmitting at 4W?
Avatar
Avatar
Nian
I think the distance will be reduced further sooner or later, so why not tie the distance to the transmit scale from now! Transmit scale 1.00 = 100km, 0.99 = 99km.... 0.01 = 1km (edited)
Bad idea, 150 km max on all and good
Avatar
Avatar
MoreDPS
Population density buddy. Nobody lives in the desert areas that make a large part of Australia
I know, but you mention Australia as a whole. Populated areas are already covered as I can see!
Avatar
The op of this Hip hasn't addressed that different regions have different transmit restrictions and allowable levels
02:04
To set one distance for all when areas can transmit 2 ormore times further would be pointless
Avatar
Avatar
secretboy
Bad idea, 150 km max on all and good
The limit they proposed is 100km, and you can vote no with or without my suggestion/idea!
Avatar
Not going to debate distance this whole idea is baked if they don't do it by legally allowed maximum transmit strength by region
Avatar
Avatar
Nian
I know it can provide coverage (if high enough), but Transmite scale (reward scale) was introduced for a reason, and by Explorer map, it's not working as it supposed to. Someone with 0.10ts will still have 10km of coverage, which is enough for a such dense area.
You're missing the point. Let's give an extreme example. Imagine a hex has a hotspot in a basement providing almost no coverage and another hotspot in a tower. Both hotspots will be limited to 50km, which is very unfair to the tower one because it is the only one providing useful coverage. The witnessing distance limit is something that should be tied to sensor capabilities so that PoC behaves more like real network usage, not tied to PoC itself. (edited)
Avatar
Avatar
ricopt5
You're missing the point. Let's give an extreme example. Imagine a hex has a hotspot in a basement providing almost no coverage and another hotspot in a tower. Both hotspots will be limited to 50km, which is very unfair to the tower one because it is the only one providing useful coverage. The witnessing distance limit is something that should be tied to sensor capabilities so that PoC behaves more like real network usage, not tied to PoC itself. (edited)
Why would someone in a basement or ground floor keep his miner ON or where it is if his not gonna earn anything!
Avatar
Avatar
Nian
Why would someone in a basement or ground floor keep his miner ON or where it is if his not gonna earn anything!
I said "extreme example"
Avatar
50km can still land you 2HNT/day
👎 1
🤣 1
Avatar
I find it really enjoyable that so many people join these kind of HIP's to push their own narrative. I think the math in the HIP is pretty solid, as I've verified it myself after having questions about the 10k sample size. Anyone wanting to 'bikeshed', as hashc0de said it, another number should at least provide a similar analysis.
💯 1
Avatar
Avatar
backtran
Make it 8.3km. None of my witnesses are further away than that.
It's time to unbox your miner now - from it's location under the bed in the basement 😆
😄 1
Avatar
Avatar
Tango
It's time to unbox your miner now - from it's location under the bed in the basement 😆
I will first have to dig it up.
Avatar
I've personally have never seen a device go over 100km. I've read an article of someone doing it with a very custom setup. I've seen evidence of hotspots but at this stage with helium. People slap on massive antennas and get them 50+ meters above the ground. PoC is meant to show coverage for devices. It's pointless if you have a tower setup that's able to beacon a sister tower 100km when a device in the middle can't see either one. (edited)
💯 3
Avatar
Hi everyone when the light hotspot hits in the system with the update our full hotpot’s become light spots as well ?
Avatar
Avatar
TAha
Hi everyone when the light hotspot hits in the system with the update our full hotpot’s become light spots as well ?
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 04/05/2022 5:49 AM
19.04/20.04, see #announcements for more information
Avatar
100 km (I.e., 62 miles) of coverage per setup is sufficient, IMO. I see nothing wrong with setting a reasonable limit.
👍 1
Avatar
Rolling distance limit. Sensor-TOU. Daytime (100) sensorpower batt+solar , Nighttime (50) sensorpower batt. Power efficiency is key here.🤪
Avatar
While the 100km is not that bad it still kills a good part of the action for good offgrid setups, you can provide really good coverage even over 100km when you are at 1500m elevation. But what's terrible here is Helium's recurring way of solving problems by putting band-aids on them.
💯 1
👎 1
10:16
yeah but Helium team has the wrong mindset, only thinking of the easiest and most convenient solution to them, not about what's logical and fair.
👍 1
10:21
But these are bad decisions long term and they erode people's trust in the network. You invest a lot of time and money in good setups only to find out the next hip will cut in half your rewards. I know for sure i'm not investing more, it's like they are trying to make everybody earn equally, not proportional to the coverage they offer. And i'm not personally affected by this, i don't have any offgrids, i just don't like their approach.
💯 1
👍 1
👎 1
Avatar
Fuck helium
👎 1
10:52
100k for hotspots
10:52
And why?
10:53
Bad idea 100km
10:53
My 12 hotspots is 120 140 km
10:53
My elevation is 2000m
Avatar
Avatar
krby
Would love to see your hotspot account so we can look up the awesome witnesses!
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 04/05/2022 10:54 AM
I can’t post pics in this CHAT!! And since I’m running quite a few offgrid I don’t like sharing my wallet publicly
10:54
We can DM if u like 👍
Avatar
Totally agree with distance limit.... i could imagine little bit more than 100km let's say 150 or max 200km....... but today i broadcasted beacon and from 14 whitnesess 7 were stollers located 700km far away from my hotspot and this must be stopped!
Avatar
@chuckr My elev. 2000m and beacon real 237km
10:55
160 withmess
10:56
And.....
10:56
! for my money
10:57
l
10:58
After this hip helium price will be down
10:59
Hello world
10:59
Hahahaha
10:59
My be mining to btc
Avatar
Avatar
Anthonyra
I've personally have never seen a device go over 100km. I've read an article of someone doing it with a very custom setup. I've seen evidence of hotspots but at this stage with helium. People slap on massive antennas and get them 50+ meters above the ground. PoC is meant to show coverage for devices. It's pointless if you have a tower setup that's able to beacon a sister tower 100km when a device in the middle can't see either one. (edited)
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 04/05/2022 11:00 AM
This HiP is big stupid from the aspect it will force me to move my offgrids close to already well covered/saturated city’s and no longer I will be able to provide the value rural coverage that this network needs…
Avatar
@fsdfsdf if they set limit to 300km or 400km it's still better than without limit... now there is big space for speculators from my point of view
Avatar
300 400km is OK
Avatar
Honest question if we're done trolling here. If the point of the network is to serve actual data traffic from devices and all known use cases expect a shorter range than 100km then why expand it past there?
💯 4
Avatar
Avatar
hashc0de
Honest question if we're done trolling here. If the point of the network is to serve actual data traffic from devices and all known use cases expect a shorter range than 100km then why expand it past there?
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 04/05/2022 11:02 AM
Simple… if we could DM I could explain my argument but I will try in this chat
Avatar
I can put a super high dbi antenna up on a 100m mast to have a laser pointer like accuracy several hundred km away but then i'm not actually providing coverage again.
👆 1
Avatar
Avatar
hashc0de
I can put a super high dbi antenna up on a 100m mast to have a laser pointer like accuracy several hundred km away but then i'm not actually providing coverage again.
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 04/05/2022 11:03 AM
So if your transmitting data would you consider that value covrage?
11:04
Cause my argument is that PoC allows me to setup offgrid hotspots far out from city’s and provide usable coverage to large areas of the network
11:04
Without the PoC witnessing I wouldn’t not place them that far out
11:04
They would move close to city’s
Avatar
Avatar
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions)
This HiP is big stupid from the aspect it will force me to move my offgrids close to already well covered/saturated city’s and no longer I will be able to provide the value rural coverage that this network needs…
I'm not saying you're wrong. I just haven't seen the device data to prove that you're providing the coverage you say you are. You might be doing good with the current PoC but I'd admit it's far from what it needs to be to provide adequate evidence for good coverage in regards to a device. If you can prove your offgrids are relaying data from devices >100km away then I'd say that's enough to prove an increase in distance is needed in regards to the limit.
Avatar
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 04/05/2022 11:04 AM
Where the network is already well covered
Avatar
@hashc0de 12dbi 2000m ev.
Avatar
Avatar
Anthonyra
I'm not saying you're wrong. I just haven't seen the device data to prove that you're providing the coverage you say you are. You might be doing good with the current PoC but I'd admit it's far from what it needs to be to provide adequate evidence for good coverage in regards to a device. If you can prove your offgrids are relaying data from devices >100km away then I'd say that's enough to prove an increase in distance is needed in regards to the limit.
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 04/05/2022 11:05 AM
IF I COULD ONLY SHARE PICTURE LMFAO
Avatar
@Anthonyra my rent to 2000m elev is 200 usd to month
11:06
@Anthonyra for 1 antenatal 12 dbi montain
11:07
And my coverage is 3 cities
11:08
Bye helium
11:08
Hello world
11:10
everyone should be able to make settings. this restriction will deny us this cause for coverage. but you have that goal for sure
Avatar
Avatar
Anthonyra
I'm not saying you're wrong. I just haven't seen the device data to prove that you're providing the coverage you say you are. You might be doing good with the current PoC but I'd admit it's far from what it needs to be to provide adequate evidence for good coverage in regards to a device. If you can prove your offgrids are relaying data from devices >100km away then I'd say that's enough to prove an increase in distance is needed in regards to the limit.
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 04/05/2022 11:10 AM
You are right only way a actually prove what I’m saying is to get out with a mapper and do it yourself but even if I can’t transmit data tht far I still think the covrage I’m providing is very valuable and if their was a hip like this to pass I would just move my offgrid units close to city’s kinda defeats the point and am no longer building out the network
Avatar
There's just hard limitations when it comes to devices. Just because your setup can yell 100km away and the other towers can do the same thats fine but you still can only move data that a device can yell back at you. If the devices signal never reaches your setup, you can't provide it coverage
Avatar
Avatar
Anthonyra
There's just hard limitations when it comes to devices. Just because your setup can yell 100km away and the other towers can do the same thats fine but you still can only move data that a device can yell back at you. If the devices signal never reaches your setup, you can't provide it coverage
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 04/05/2022 11:15 AM
Yes.. I understand u are saying 100% (edited)
Avatar
and that means I have to move them to the city. yes i will do it i just have no choice. the question is to get back my investment of 100k. then I will break them and publish a video of how 120 devices break. to rejoice in helium
facepalm 1
Troll 1
Avatar
Avatar
Anthonyra
There's just hard limitations when it comes to devices. Just because your setup can yell 100km away and the other towers can do the same thats fine but you still can only move data that a device can yell back at you. If the devices signal never reaches your setup, you can't provide it coverage
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 04/05/2022 11:16 AM
But I’m providing RURAL covrage out in the sticks outside of the city’s the PoC allows me to do this if their was a limit implemented I would just move my miners into or outside of city’s where the covrage they provide is now redundant
11:16
I don’t understand and how that improves the network (edited)
Avatar
Avatar
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions)
But I’m providing RURAL covrage out in the sticks outside of the city’s the PoC allows me to do this if their was a limit implemented I would just move my miners into or outside of city’s where the covrage they provide is now redundant
@Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) this improves the pockets of manufacturers
👎 1
🤡 1
11:18
Network is Mish mash
Avatar
Avatar
Anthonyra
There's just hard limitations when it comes to devices. Just because your setup can yell 100km away and the other towers can do the same thats fine but you still can only move data that a device can yell back at you. If the devices signal never reaches your setup, you can't provide it coverage
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 04/05/2022 11:19 AM
150km and I’m happy I just think 100km is to limiting
Avatar
Avatar
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions)
150km and I’m happy I just think 100km is to limiting
that's 3-4x the range of all actual lorawan use cases today.
👆 1
Avatar
I actually thought 100km was already generous given the limited range of the average sensor.
💯 1
Avatar
Posting these for @Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) . These are his hotspots. For some reason he is not able to post pics (edited)
Avatar
Avatar
hashc0de
that's 3-4x the range of all actual lorawan use cases today.
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 04/05/2022 11:21 AM
Again my point is to be able to provide rural coverage where their is not already hotspots I’m able to do this by witnessing city’s that far away if I’m filling in the gaps between towns then I think that’s valuable coverage
Avatar
Avatar
krby
Posting these for @Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) . These are his hotspots. For some reason he is not able to post pics (edited)
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 04/05/2022 11:22 AM
Thanks 👍
Avatar
Avatar
krby
Posting these for @Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) . These are his hotspots. For some reason he is not able to post pics (edited)
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 04/05/2022 11:22 AM
Could u post the data aswell?
Avatar
Avatar
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions)
Could u post the data aswell?
I thought I did, damnit! Here it is. This is data transfer from @Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) , not me. (edited)
🙌 1
Avatar
i'm certain that data transfer is < 50km away (edited)
11:24
those overwater long shots are unreliable links. getting lucky that the right humidity conditions will hold when a real sensor comes by is some combination of luck and weather.
Avatar
Avatar
hashc0de
i'm certain that data transfer is < 50km away (edited)
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 04/05/2022 11:24 AM
But still I’m filling in basically uncovered areas of the network PoC allows me to do this…
Avatar
Avatar
hashc0de
those overwater long shots are unreliable links. getting lucky that the right humidity conditions will hold when a real sensor comes by is some combination of luck and weather.
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 04/05/2022 11:24 AM
Yea tht water shot is epic NGL
😄 1
Avatar
Avatar
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions)
But still I’m filling in basically uncovered areas of the network PoC allows me to do this…
i feel like we're talking past each other. your antenna is there but you're not listening to actual packets in that "uncovered area" so you're not actually covering it. (edited)
Avatar
Avatar
hashc0de
i feel like we're talking past each other. your antenna is there but you're not listening to actual packets in that "uncovered area" so you're not actually covering it. (edited)
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 04/05/2022 11:28 AM
Yea I’m confused now lmao
11:28
If I need to get outside this weekend and dive up and down California with my mapper I will
11:28
Even with gas at 6.40 a gallon
11:28
I’ll do it for the network
Avatar
Avatar
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions)
Even with gas at 6.40 a gallon
oof. i feel that. we get taxed more out here in CA too.
👍 1
🥲 1
💸 1
Avatar
Original message was deleted or could not be loaded.
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 04/05/2022 11:31 AM
@hashc0de @Deleted User this is what my mapper does at my offgrid site
11:32
With the stock seeed antenna I’m using a WiO terminal
11:32
Ran for about 20 mins up their full bore (edited)
Avatar
Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 04/05/2022 11:33 AM
nothing over 100km
Avatar
Avatar
Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST)
nothing over 100km
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 04/05/2022 11:34 AM
Yes I just need to scroll down…
Avatar
the real question is that if you can go out 150km and be heard by your hotspot without putting a yagi on the sensor 😛
11:35
using a laser-like antenna is probably a non-generalizable use case.
Avatar
Avatar
hashc0de
the real question is that if you can go out 150km and be heard by your hotspot without putting a yagi on the sensor 😛
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 04/05/2022 11:36 AM
This was done with the lil 2.3 stock seeed antenna
11:36
I was told by bfgneil don’t mess up mapper data by doing tht lmao
Avatar
Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 04/05/2022 11:37 AM
I used to live in BFE, so if there is use, i'm all for expanding the distance some. but in the end if it doesn't help the end goal of data transfer on an iot (or multi-protocol) network then it doesn't really matter.
Avatar
Avatar
hashc0de
the real question is that if you can go out 150km and be heard by your hotspot without putting a yagi on the sensor 😛
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 04/05/2022 11:38 AM
Bfgneil already told me this was bad… so I don’t do it or I submit the data to my own map when I do now…
11:41
Avatar
lol. that looks like a perfectly normal device 😛
11:50
i carry one of those antennas on my package tracker all the time 😛
✅ 2
Avatar
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 04/05/2022 11:52 AM
Yup standard IoT gear nothing special 😉
Avatar
Avatar
hashc0de
i carry one of those antennas on my package tracker all the time 😛
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 04/05/2022 11:52 AM
Wen super-hotspots doe?
Avatar
It'll be on the next Falcon 9 mission. Hold on, gotta call Elon.
👍 1
Avatar
He'll be too busy tweeting.
😂 2
Avatar
... went straight to voice mail. I think I'm getting screened. Maybe he's too busy on Twitter.
🐤 1
Avatar
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 04/05/2022 12:06 PM
Damn… lucky u got the musks number lol lmk what he’s shilling next
Avatar
I think there's a typo in my contact. It says Ethan Misk.
Avatar
Avatar
hashc0de
I think there's a typo in my contact. It says Ethan Misk.
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 04/05/2022 12:08 PM
Avatar
Avatar
fsdfsdf
My elevation is 2000m
Really? Above ground level?
Avatar
Avatar
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions)
IF I COULD ONLY SHARE PICTURE LMFAO
just dump it on imgur.com and post the link here
Avatar
Avatar
hashc0de
I think there's a typo in my contact. It says Ethan Misk.
ElonTusk!
😆 1
Avatar
Avatar
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions)
Yes I just need to scroll down…
So scroll down, post the pic here.
Avatar
Avatar
krby
ElonTusk!
he doesn't take my calls either.
🤣 1
Avatar
Avatar
molano
So scroll down, post the pic here.
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 04/05/2022 12:51 PM
To much work post to Imgur u can find the hex here tho if your interested @ https://mappers.helium.com/uplinks/hex/8929a468637ffff
Avatar
2 of the hotspots that picked up the tracker were > 100km based on some terrible text extraction (edited)
13:07
2 of the 565
Avatar
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 04/05/2022 1:12 PM
I guess I could live with 100Km your right most of the 100+km witnesses are bouncing off water are bouncing off water hard to get that far over land
13:13
125km would b a nice compromise from 150 😉
Avatar
110 km would work for my installation. Am still passing data packets every day even though the POC has dried up. Wish there was some way to ID how far away the packet data is from my miners. That might settle the hash....
Avatar
Avatar
SporadicE
110 km would work for my installation. Am still passing data packets every day even though the POC has dried up. Wish there was some way to ID how far away the packet data is from my miners. That might settle the hash....
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 04/05/2022 1:16 PM
You could check your local area on helium.mappers see if you were mapped if the data came through a mapper
Avatar
Avatar
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions)
To much work post to Imgur u can find the hex here tho if your interested @ https://mappers.helium.com/uplinks/hex/8929a468637ffff
Thanks. I apologize upfront for my theory that will follow. So you brought your mapper up that hill of 2000m and let it sent some beacons. By doing you proof that a (simple? - not sure what mapper and antenne you used) sensor can transfer his data up to 96 mi. However, you clearly also see in your mapping data that there are 564 other hotspots that can easily pick up that signal. And most of them are within the 100km range. So in this particular case that you are referring too, a coverage above 100km is certainly not needed. Next to that, you need to do it the other way around. Go with your mapper in e.g. Serra Mesa and try to get your mapper signal from downtown all the way up to your Camel hotspot. I bet you will never get there. I mean, the goal of this HIP is to align towards the average reachability of sensors. And an average sensor is not 2000m on a mountain. And that's the real coverage we are talking about: Can a sensor reach your hotspot? In this case, based on all the mapping already done from downtown, that's not happening. Even more, I went to https://coveragemap.net/heatmap/ where you can more cleary see the real sensor- reachability towards hotspots, but strangely enough your "Camel" hotspot (and I can only assume that's yours) is not on there. (edited)
💯 1
Avatar
Avatar
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions)
You could check your local area on helium.mappers see if you were mapped if the data came through a mapper
yes, i looked at your link. Went way up the coast and saw a bunch of little green dots all around my miners. Need to read the docs to know what it is about.
Avatar
So I took another one pretty closeby on that mountain and checked where that could be mapped with a simple mapper. Here is the result: (edited)
13:19
That's 57km. I rest my case. I think the 100km POC limit is already pretty generous.
💯 2
🧱 1
Avatar
Avatar
molano
That's 57km. I rest my case. I think the 100km POC limit is already pretty generous.
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 04/05/2022 1:22 PM
100km I can live with
Avatar
Avatar
SporadicE
yes, i looked at your link. Went way up the coast and saw a bunch of little green dots all around my miners. Need to read the docs to know what it is about.
Heliummapper is good. Helium mapper is bad as data source for this use HIP.
Avatar
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 04/05/2022 1:23 PM
Appreciate tht lol
Avatar
Avatar
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions)
100km I can live with
Sorry, I did not saw any personal info in there....
Avatar
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 04/05/2022 1:24 PM
Camel wasn’t my hotspot… but that one was…
Avatar
Lol. 😉
Avatar
Avatar
molano
Sorry, I did not saw any personal info in there....
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 04/05/2022 1:24 PM
All good man
13:24
Just luck
Avatar
Avatar
molano
Heliummapper is good. Helium mapper is bad as data source for this use HIP.
Tnx for the link. not sure how accurate it is. Says my miners been offline since April 1, but think thats the lack of seeds. Needs a lot more data points, but it is a good start. Tnx
Avatar
Avatar
SporadicE
Tnx for the link. not sure how accurate it is. Says my miners been offline since April 1, but think thats the lack of seeds. Needs a lot more data points, but it is a good start. Tnx
If you happen to use hntmonitor, @Wrath - demo.hntmonitor.com has also implemented a pretty good mapper map (only for you own mapper)
🔥 1
🪄 1
13:29
And another one I frequently use is https://ttnmapper.org/advanced-maps/. But also here, you need to put in the DeviceID of your own mapper.
Avatar
Avatar
molano
If you happen to use hntmonitor, @Wrath - demo.hntmonitor.com has also implemented a pretty good mapper map (only for you own mapper)
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 04/05/2022 1:29 PM
Guess who helped by submitting the mapper data while he was developing tht app…. 🗺
🥳 3
Avatar
Avatar
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions)
Guess who helped by submitting the mapper data while he was developing tht app…. 🗺
I think we both did. 😉
Avatar
Avatar
molano
I think we both did. 😉
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 04/05/2022 1:30 PM
Haha he never mentioned anyone else I was actually the one tht gave him the idea with some others from #general
Avatar
So, when vote??
🤣 1
💯 2
Avatar
Avatar
molano
So, when vote??
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 04/05/2022 1:49 PM
Can we bump it to 125km?
Avatar
No, we can do 75km in fact.
🤣 3
Avatar
My personal target stays 100km....
Avatar
Let's put a sliding bar in the vote and who wants X km should burn that much DC 😂 (edited)
Avatar
Avatar
bilalhp
Let's put a sliding bar in the vote and who wants X km should burn that much DC 😂 (edited)
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 04/05/2022 1:54 PM
I’m down 🔥
Avatar
Avatar
hashc0de
It'll be on the next Falcon 9 mission. Hold on, gotta call Elon.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/05/2022 1:54 PM
Give me some time. Someone stuck gum in the fuel injectors....
Avatar
Make it HNT not DC, that way we ensure a low number😂
😅 2
Avatar
Actually thought about that for a second😂
Avatar
Avatar
bilalhp
No, we can do 75km in fact.
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 04/05/2022 2:00 PM
😆 1
Avatar
tempted to put up an unscientific straw poll
14:19
(before a formal vote)
👍 1
Avatar
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 04/05/2022 2:22 PM
I’d be interested to see what Reddit has to say
Avatar
Avatar
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions)
I’d be interested to see what Reddit has to say
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/05/2022 2:26 PM
All depends on how it's presented. 😉
☝️ 1
Avatar
send em in here
coolcry 3
Avatar
im here
😄 1
Avatar
Avatar
Fizzy
im here
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 04/05/2022 2:33 PM
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
All depends on how it's presented. 😉
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 04/05/2022 2:33 PM
One second thought they would prly go for a 25km limit since they all have basement hotspots
😆 1
14:35
Could b a double edge sword sourcing this out to the community to decide
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/05/2022 2:35 PM
It's really simple. You want to sell the idea to people, you give them a calc to show their hotspot will not be affected and that it will have some effect on gamers. The vote at that point is easy.
😒 1
Avatar
Avatar
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions)
Could b a double edge sword sourcing this out to the community to decide
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/05/2022 2:35 PM
heh Always is. 😉
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
heh Always is. 😉
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 04/05/2022 2:52 PM
“Helium devs limit witnesses to stop gamers and high earners”
😆 1
Avatar
Avatar
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions)
“Helium devs limit witnesses to stop gamers and high earners”
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/05/2022 3:00 PM
Avatar
Avatar
bilalhp
No, we can do 75km in fact.
Naw...most of the world is rural. 110km is about right.
☝️ 1
Avatar
Avatar
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions)
“Helium devs limit witnesses to stop gamers and high earners”
"Please admin limit witnesses to stop gamers and high earners"
Avatar
Avatar
SporadicE
Naw...most of the world is rural. 110km is about right.
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 04/05/2022 3:23 PM
125 😉
Avatar
Avatar
bilalhp
"Please admin limit witnesses to stop gamers and high earners"
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 04/05/2022 3:23 PM
😆 1
Avatar
Avatar
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions)
125 😉
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/05/2022 3:28 PM
Avatar
100
👍 1
Avatar
Avatar
molano
100
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 04/05/2022 3:36 PM
101…
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Click to see attachment 🖼️
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 04/05/2022 3:39 PM
😆 2
Avatar
After almost 2 years, the world record of 702 km (436 miles) has been broken. Not once but twice. For a long time this record which was set on 26th of August […]
16:33
We don't set highway speed limits based on land speed records. 😉
💯 6
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
We don't set highway speed limits based on land speed records. 😉
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 04/05/2022 4:47 PM
Some people drive faster than others 😉
😄 2
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
We don't set highway speed limits based on land speed records. 😉
going to keep this line.
🍻 3
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Not really 🙂
Since we're into obtuse thought processes...🤪 Travelling at half the speed limit slows getting to where you're going and generally irritates everyone around you.
Avatar
Avatar
SporadicE
Since we're into obtuse thought processes...🤪 Travelling at half the speed limit slows getting to where you're going and generally irritates everyone around you.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/05/2022 6:22 PM
Actually that would get you a ticket.
👆 2
😆 1
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Actually that would get you a ticket.
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 04/05/2022 10:12 PM
😄 2
Avatar
This seams narrow minded that such a widespread network could only be used for little sensors. There would be much broader utility if the network incentivized coverage that could connect cities to one another. This would not only promote a healthier/faster expansion of the network but more utility as well, such as, complete coverage for flight data, logistics tracking/sensors, potential for a decentralized alternative backup to emergency communications systems, and many unforeseen use cases that may emerge down the road. The limitations of the network should be the physical limitations of the hotspots since the devices that use the network now (in its infancy stages) are use cases that do not require a large widespread network. There is no telling what IoT devices/systems may use helium down the road when the network is complete. There could easily be IoT devices in the future with just as powerful transceivers as the hotspots that support them. If this HIP is meant to remedy some aspects of gaming, it is only a bandaid and doesn’t solve the real issue of security vulnerabilities of the network. I would argue it would hurt the network in the long run, preventing wider utility and less efficient expansion of the network.
👎 1
👍 1
Avatar
Avatar
hforn
This seams narrow minded that such a widespread network could only be used for little sensors. There would be much broader utility if the network incentivized coverage that could connect cities to one another. This would not only promote a healthier/faster expansion of the network but more utility as well, such as, complete coverage for flight data, logistics tracking/sensors, potential for a decentralized alternative backup to emergency communications systems, and many unforeseen use cases that may emerge down the road. The limitations of the network should be the physical limitations of the hotspots since the devices that use the network now (in its infancy stages) are use cases that do not require a large widespread network. There is no telling what IoT devices/systems may use helium down the road when the network is complete. There could easily be IoT devices in the future with just as powerful transceivers as the hotspots that support them. If this HIP is meant to remedy some aspects of gaming, it is only a bandaid and doesn’t solve the real issue of security vulnerabilities of the network. I would argue it would hurt the network in the long run, preventing wider utility and less efficient expansion of the network.
If that were found to be the case, its easy to modify and remove. We have gameing we can stop today with this HIP vs a undefined future use edge case. Once HIP40 comes in (if ever) and is effective then this can be removed.
☝️ 2
🤡 1
Avatar
Avatar
backtran
If that were found to be the case, its easy to modify and remove. We have gameing we can stop today with this HIP vs a undefined future use edge case. Once HIP40 comes in (if ever) and is effective then this can be removed.
This shouldn’t be removed when HIP40 comes as it is not meant to stop gaming but it is meant to align the PoC rewards with actual network usage.
👍 3
Avatar
Well for me, this is why: https://explorer.helium.com/hotspots/11hsyViz32idrBHSrX4V5rdwwQJaZB4YnyV5vCkXVcfRTS8uYhj/activity On deny list and while less than before the ban it is still making way above average. All long distance.
Helium Explorer is a Block Explorer and Analytics Platform for Helium, a decentralized wireless connectivity platform
01:50
As long as this goes on, confidence is undermined and gives fodder to the fudders.
Avatar
Unukalhai🇱🇧🇦🇪 04/06/2022 3:34 AM
I'm sure there is a way to remove them completely from network
Avatar
Avatar
Unukalhai🇱🇧🇦🇪
I'm sure there is a way to remove them completely from network
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 04/06/2022 4:07 AM
There is not
Avatar
Avatar
backtran
Well for me, this is why: https://explorer.helium.com/hotspots/11hsyViz32idrBHSrX4V5rdwwQJaZB4YnyV5vCkXVcfRTS8uYhj/activity On deny list and while less than before the ban it is still making way above average. All long distance.
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 04/06/2022 6:37 AM
We don’t need a bandaid 🩹 we need a solution
06:38
Setting distance limits seems like a lazy answer to the issues at hand
👎 1
💯 2
06:38
If it’s meant to combat gaming
06:39
Then we should be able to come up with something that doesn’t effect legit setups
💯 1
☝️ 3
Avatar
Avatar
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions)
If it’s meant to combat gaming
If, but it's not. It's to better align the PoC rewards with actual network usage.
💯 1
Avatar
Avatar
groot
If, but it's not. It's to better align the PoC rewards with actual network usage.
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 04/06/2022 6:39 AM
We have different views on what “valuable” PoC is
06:40
I think building out the network is valuable
Avatar
Avatar
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions)
Then we should be able to come up with something that doesn’t effect legit setups
this guy is running at more than 1000km. Which possible legit setup could apply? (edited)
Avatar
Avatar
backtran
this guy is running at more than 1000km. Which possible legit setup could apply? (edited)
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 04/06/2022 8:37 AM
Very valid obviously that’s not okay I think the real debate here is at which point the distance limit should b set 100km I can live with I still think that gives wiggle room for “network expansion” obviously witnessing 1000km+ like that is not helpful in any way
👍 3
Avatar
I feel like the community call folks have spoken. @Joey wen vote?
Avatar
vote on all the things
10:34
how do we feel about 58,57, and 40 all at the same time?
👍 1
😅 1
Avatar
oh my goodness
10:36
can they all start today?
Avatar
Avatar
Joey
how do we feel about 58,57, and 40 all at the same time?
Do I get a discount on tx fees if I vote them all at once? 😉
💯 2
Avatar
not a chance
😆 4
Avatar
Max - Just Max 04/06/2022 10:38 AM
The HIP says the limit was written but was never activated. I just want to point out that it was activated at one point.
👆 1
Avatar
prev distance limit was RSSI/SNR based iirc
Avatar
Max - Just Max 04/06/2022 10:39 AM
50km
🤷‍♂️ 1
👆 1
Avatar
Avatar
Joey
how do we feel about 58,57, and 40 all at the same time?
Is there code for 40 and 57?
Avatar
Max - Just Max 04/06/2022 10:40 AM
It’s amazing the useless information you retain when you spend all day and all night for over a year on the same project.
😅 1
Avatar
Avatar
hashc0de
can they all start today?
stubbed-out vote welcome and would accelerate the addition.
Avatar
Avatar
PaulM
Is there code for 40 and 57?
There is not
Avatar
Temp check vote?
Avatar
Avatar
Joey
how do we feel about 58,57, and 40 all at the same time?
Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 04/06/2022 10:47 AM
Yay 58 & 40, Nay 57
💯 1
10:50
and it's been tossed around, doesn't 55 implementation pretty much implement 40, since the code has challengers with the deny list?
👆 1
Avatar
Avatar
Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST)
and it's been tossed around, doesn't 55 implementation pretty much implement 40, since the code has challengers with the deny list?
lacks transparency and thereby the continued availability of data for analysis. (edited)
Avatar
Avatar
groot
lacks transparency and thereby the continued availability of data for analysis. (edited)
Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 04/06/2022 10:54 AM
so the code is going to be re-written to leave hotspots holding the deny list? break it down for me a little.
Avatar
Off topic for this channel, but the current denylist works by having the challenger drop the witnesses or challenge. So that would move to validators with hip 55.
Avatar
Avatar
PaulM
Off topic for this channel, but the current denylist works by having the challenger drop the witnesses or challenge. So that would move to validators with hip 55.
Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 04/06/2022 10:57 AM
always coming through with the good stuff!!!
Avatar
Avatar
Joey
how do we feel about 58,57, and 40 all at the same time?
Can we add 44 while we're at it? 😅
👍 2
Avatar
Avatar
ricopt5
Can we add 44 while we're at it? 😅
Up to the author.
Avatar
Avatar
Joey
Up to the author.
@hashc0de ?
Avatar
Avatar
Joey
how do we feel about 58,57, and 40 all at the same time?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 04/06/2022 11:10 AM
Doooo ittttt
11:10
Movement would be amazing
💯 1
Avatar
Avatar
Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST)
always coming through with the good stuff!!!
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 04/06/2022 11:25 AM
Why nay on 57 that hip seems like it’s the best one ?
👎 1
Avatar
Avatar
ricopt5
Can we add 44 while we're at it? 😅
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 04/06/2022 11:25 AM
God pls not tht hot garbage lol
Avatar
Ok we’re not voting in here. Back to HIP58 discussion plz k thx
Avatar
Avatar
ricopt5
@hashc0de ?
Some data coming soon on HIP 44. As implemented, I'm not sure if it's going to have the impact we think it will given the way that people have changed the way they're gaming. (edited)
11:32
if reframed as a sanity check value, it's probably fine.
11:33
but if we wanted to do that, we should just have a hard cap on witnessing within an epoch
Avatar
Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 04/06/2022 11:33 AM
im all for 100km, limit. i'd have gone for 80.4 originally, american so 50 miles seems great to me.
Avatar
Avatar
hashc0de
but if we wanted to do that, we should just have a hard cap on witnessing within an epoch
Could be done with the current code with the right values. exclusion limit as well as an incredibly high decay.
Avatar
Avatar
groot
Could be done with the current code with the right values. exclusion limit as well as an incredibly high decay.
maybe. we'll re-run analysis if you have a particular proposal, drop in #hip-44-witness-reward-decay and tag me?
👍 1
11:34
Just to say, i'm not ready to bring it to a vote (as currently described) (edited)
👍 3
Avatar
Should change the limit to 200KM. Understood that "no sensors" would have this kind of elevation or line-of-sight to a hotspot; but why "intentionally" handicap the system? 915MHz Signal with 26dBm output power, and line-of-sight has a respectable -86dBm recieve on the far end with reasonable directional/high dBi antennas. And around -105dBm for high gain omnis. If your intent is to stop a specific type of 'gamer' I would say that this should be policed by reviewing beacon distances and using some formula like Haversine or similar; and automating some type of denylist addition based. No reason to intentionally stop legitimate users who can hit ~150km from being able to do this. ... Not for now at least (and without a firm commitment to timeframe, I would say delay or kill it). (edited)
Avatar
Avatar
tacoman
Should change the limit to 200KM. Understood that "no sensors" would have this kind of elevation or line-of-sight to a hotspot; but why "intentionally" handicap the system? 915MHz Signal with 26dBm output power, and line-of-sight has a respectable -86dBm recieve on the far end with reasonable directional/high dBi antennas. And around -105dBm for high gain omnis. If your intent is to stop a specific type of 'gamer' I would say that this should be policed by reviewing beacon distances and using some formula like Haversine or similar; and automating some type of denylist addition based. No reason to intentionally stop legitimate users who can hit ~150km from being able to do this. ... Not for now at least (and without a firm commitment to timeframe, I would say delay or kill it). (edited)
"Understood that "no sensors" would have this kind of elevation or line-of-sight to a hotspot" You just answered yourself. The purpose of this HIP is to align rewards with real word usage. Helium Network exists to provide coverage to sensors, so if sensors are not able to communicate at 100km, why should POC still reward hotspots at that distance?
👆 1
💯 1
Avatar
Avatar
ricopt5
"Understood that "no sensors" would have this kind of elevation or line-of-sight to a hotspot" You just answered yourself. The purpose of this HIP is to align rewards with real word usage. Helium Network exists to provide coverage to sensors, so if sensors are not able to communicate at 100km, why should POC still reward hotspots at that distance?
If there are no sensors yet, why jump the gun and implement something that doesn't currently benefit anyone? This seems like a bandaid fix for a bigger problem, or it's year 1500 and bandaids haven't been invented yet.
😂 1
🙌 1
👎 1
💯 1
Avatar
Avatar
ricopt5
"Understood that "no sensors" would have this kind of elevation or line-of-sight to a hotspot" You just answered yourself. The purpose of this HIP is to align rewards with real word usage. Helium Network exists to provide coverage to sensors, so if sensors are not able to communicate at 100km, why should POC still reward hotspots at that distance?
Who is also to say that a helium sensor for some facility isn't installed at the top of a tower? Monitor weather data, or some type of unattended sites gate-sensor? But in any case, then why not just completely handicap the system to 5km if that's the logic? (edited)
Avatar
Avatar
tacoman
If there are no sensors yet, why jump the gun and implement something that doesn't currently benefit anyone? This seems like a bandaid fix for a bigger problem, or it's year 1500 and bandaids haven't been invented yet.
It's not about benefiting anyone, it's about aligning POC with the network purpose.
💯 1
👎 1
Avatar
Avatar
tacoman
Who is also to say that a helium sensor for some facility isn't installed at the top of a tower? Monitor weather data, or some type of unattended sites gate-sensor? But in any case, then why not just completely handicap the system to 5km if that's the logic? (edited)
There will always be edge cases, but that's what they are, minorities. 5km is too little. Sensors are more than capable of 30km-50km. More than that starts to become rare. Read the HIP for an analysis on the numbers (edited)
Avatar
Avatar
ricopt5
It's not about benefiting anyone, it's about aligning POC with the network purpose.
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 04/06/2022 1:51 PM
isnt one purpose of PoC to verify the network as it grows?
👎 1
Avatar
Avatar
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions)
isnt one purpose of PoC to verify the network as it grows?
Verify sensor coverage
Avatar
Avatar
ricopt5
There will always be edge cases, but that's what they are, minorities. 5km is too little. Sensors are more than capable of 30km-50km. More than that starts to become rare. Read the HIP for an analysis on the numbers (edited)
Opinion still stands, second read of the HIP and it should be an inclusive network, as opposed to exclusive. The details are in the approach. Perhaps this HIP should be more about a new metric that can be tracked per hotspot for "level of fishiness" and the devs can set what ever arbitrary number they want to help reduce gaming efforts, and can those hotspots that meet specific criteria. Setting a hard cap to the upper limit within viable RF propagation limits, just means the "spoofers and gamers" will learn to comply with these limits; a 6 year old who knows SCRATCH can figure that out how to get around such a simple input obstacle. (edited)
Avatar
Avatar
ricopt5
Verify sensor coverage
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 04/06/2022 2:08 PM
☝️ 1
14:08
Boom
👍 1
Avatar
Avatar
tacoman
Opinion still stands, second read of the HIP and it should be an inclusive network, as opposed to exclusive. The details are in the approach. Perhaps this HIP should be more about a new metric that can be tracked per hotspot for "level of fishiness" and the devs can set what ever arbitrary number they want to help reduce gaming efforts, and can those hotspots that meet specific criteria. Setting a hard cap to the upper limit within viable RF propagation limits, just means the "spoofers and gamers" will learn to comply with these limits; a 6 year old who knows SCRATCH can figure that out how to get around such a simple input obstacle. (edited)
There's a draft for another HIP which assigns scores to hotspots, which is more in line with what you said. I don't have the link to it right now. But again, this HIP 58 is about more than gaming.
Avatar
Avatar
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions)
Click to see attachment 🖼️
Is that the same one hashc0de analysed that there are 2 out of 500+ at 100km+?
Avatar
Avatar
ricopt5
There's a draft for another HIP which assigns scores to hotspots, which is more in line with what you said. I don't have the link to it right now. But again, this HIP 58 is about more than gaming.
Assuming you're right, Without reviewing patch or software changes. The way the GitHub is written: specifically targets gaming, no other use-cases or examples of problems it is trying to solve are provided. (edited)
Avatar
Avatar
groot
Is that the same one hashc0de analysed that there are 2 out of 500+ at 100km+?
Avatar
Avatar
groot
Is that the same one hashc0de analysed that there are 2 out of 500+ at 100km+?
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 04/06/2022 2:26 PM
if you look on the map u can find plenty more than 2 he did a poor text search also look around some of the hexs in that area plenty go over 100 km
Avatar
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 04/06/2022 2:26 PM
whats your point you... i realize know how to be a smartass?
Avatar
Avatar
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions)
Click to see attachment 🖼️
I thought we went over that yesterday already?
Avatar
Avatar
molano
I thought we went over that yesterday already?
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 04/06/2022 2:32 PM
We did and I realize the area is covered by 500 other hotspots 😉
Avatar
So no need to have POC over 100km since the sensordata can easily be picked up by closer hotspots. 😉
👍 2
Avatar
Avatar
molano
So no need to have POC over 100km since the sensordata can easily be picked up by closer hotspots. 😉
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 04/06/2022 2:34 PM
Yea no NEED but it doesn’t really help people that are trying to build the network out now I will be forced to place hotspot outside of cities which doesn’t help the network grow
Avatar
Avatar
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions)
Yea no NEED but it doesn’t really help people that are trying to build the network out now I will be forced to place hotspot outside of cities which doesn’t help the network grow
It does help! You can now place multiples. One 80km from city center and another one another 80 km. Double your POC rewards!
Avatar
Avatar
molano
It does help! You can now place multiples. One 80km from city center and another one another 80 km. Double your POC rewards!
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 04/06/2022 2:40 PM
100km i can live with okay lol
Avatar
Avatar
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions)
100km i can live with okay lol
So let's support 100km all together in that case.
Avatar
Avatar
molano
So let's support 100km all together in that case.
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 04/06/2022 2:42 PM
live with doesnt mean to b happy with 😉
Avatar
Avatar
molano
So let's support 100km all together in that case.
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 04/06/2022 2:43 PM
150km id b happy unless the PoC witness selection process changes it looks about 15-30% of my beacons sent will become invalids
Avatar
Avatar
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions)
150km id b happy unless the PoC witness selection process changes it looks about 15-30% of my beacons sent will become invalids
Which - if true - is indeed a considerable portion....
Avatar
Avatar
molano
Which - if true - is indeed a considerable portion....
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 04/06/2022 2:46 PM
Take this beacon it was the last one I sent 3 of the witnesses would fall invalid out of the 14 if this hip passes with no selection change
14:48
I get I fall into a small handful of hotspot owners that have these issues but I would appreciate the community supporting people that go the extra effort
Avatar
Avatar
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions)
Take this beacon it was the last one I sent 3 of the witnesses would fall invalid out of the 14 if this hip passes with no selection change
My argument stays: take your mapper to those far-end points and try to map your own hotspot from there.
👆 1
Avatar
Avatar
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions)
I get I fall into a small handful of hotspot owners that have these issues but I would appreciate the community supporting people that go the extra effort
The extra effort IMHO is 100km, instead of something way lower.
Avatar
Avatar
molano
My argument stays: take your mapper to those far-end points and try to map your own hotspot from there.
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 04/06/2022 2:49 PM
So I should move my hotspots closer to the ground basically is what u are saying I’m not sure how else to stop beacons from traveling so far even with low dbi antennas they go 150km+ sometimes
Avatar
Avatar
ricopt5
"Understood that "no sensors" would have this kind of elevation or line-of-sight to a hotspot" You just answered yourself. The purpose of this HIP is to align rewards with real word usage. Helium Network exists to provide coverage to sensors, so if sensors are not able to communicate at 100km, why should POC still reward hotspots at that distance?
Ricopt5 wrote and others have said "The purpose of this HIP is to align rewards with real word usage." Please go back to the first few paragraphs of this HIP. This is about gaming. Not about aligning rewards. If you want to realign the rewards you'd write a HIP allowing 0.5 HNT for each data packet. This HIP throws serious shade at the placement of rural miners. 2% of the world's surface is urbanized. Less than 15 % of the world's surface has had some kind of action done on it by humans. So keep in mind that a real network will include and emphasize the rural miners. Having said all that and formerly being against any kind of limit put on a natural phenomena like a radio wave, it is necessary to hinder the gamers who threaten the viability and integrity of the network. Limiting rewards by limiting the distance will be effective. It appears to be more than a band-aid. 100 to 110 km is a resonable limit. Reliable communication between miners at that distance is a fact. Lets get this voted on sooner than later.
🙌 4
Avatar
I was just about to type the same. 😄 😉
👍 1
Avatar
Avatar
PaulM
Is there code for 40 and 57?
Not that I know any erlang, but...code for 40 should not too hard? I MVP could be: - Look in <dir> for files - For each file, check for a simple format, like hotspot addr and a human readable comment - add those all to a Set-type collection - during PoC selection and witnessing filter out anything in Set-type thing.
Avatar
Avatar
krby
Not that I know any erlang, but...code for 40 should not too hard? I MVP could be: - Look in <dir> for files - For each file, check for a simple format, like hotspot addr and a human readable comment - add those all to a Set-type collection - during PoC selection and witnessing filter out anything in Set-type thing.
It's not quite that easy. Once each validator determines if it on their list or not then they need to reach consensus on whether or not to deny it otherwise there will be disagreement on the transaction
Avatar
Avatar
SporadicE
Ricopt5 wrote and others have said "The purpose of this HIP is to align rewards with real word usage." Please go back to the first few paragraphs of this HIP. This is about gaming. Not about aligning rewards. If you want to realign the rewards you'd write a HIP allowing 0.5 HNT for each data packet. This HIP throws serious shade at the placement of rural miners. 2% of the world's surface is urbanized. Less than 15 % of the world's surface has had some kind of action done on it by humans. So keep in mind that a real network will include and emphasize the rural miners. Having said all that and formerly being against any kind of limit put on a natural phenomena like a radio wave, it is necessary to hinder the gamers who threaten the viability and integrity of the network. Limiting rewards by limiting the distance will be effective. It appears to be more than a band-aid. 100 to 110 km is a resonable limit. Reliable communication between miners at that distance is a fact. Lets get this voted on sooner than later.
The 0.5 HNT per data packet you mention is a naive solution that is easily gameable. See HIP 10 to understand why it used to be this way but was changed.
Avatar
Avatar
rawrmaan
The 0.5 HNT per data packet you mention is a naive solution that is easily gameable. See HIP 10 to understand why it used to be this way but was changed.
I agree with you 100% about HIP10 and why it happened. I'm sorry you took the ludicrous, outlandish, bombastic suggestion seriously. Sometimes responding with hyperbole to hyperbole isn't effective in a written medium.
Avatar
Avatar
PaulM
It's not quite that easy. Once each validator determines if it on their list or not then they need to reach consensus on whether or not to deny it otherwise there will be disagreement on the transaction
...and I always forget there is a consensus protocol. facepalm Thanks for the reminder, I needed it!
Avatar
Avatar
SporadicE
I agree with you 100% about HIP10 and why it happened. I'm sorry you took the ludicrous, outlandish, bombastic suggestion seriously. Sometimes responding with hyperbole to hyperbole isn't effective in a written medium.
Ah yeah, I see now that you weren't necessarily suggesting it but just using it as a tool of comparison. My bad.
👍 1
Avatar
Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 04/06/2022 7:16 PM
Now that's the speed I like to see on a well done HIP
19:16
let's get this baby rolling
Avatar
Notice to this channel - this HIP is now up for a vote. See the announcement https://discord.com/channels/404106811252408320/813452716286017557/961449096328138772 (edited)
🤘 1
Avatar
Avatar
Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST)
Now that's the speed I like to see on a well done HIP
you're quick
Joey pinned a message to this channel. 04/06/2022 7:17 PM
Avatar
Avatar
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions)
whats your point you... i realize know how to be a smartass?
Exactly as molano concluded; I thought we went over that one and concluded it wasn’t a good argument for a higher distance limit.
Avatar
Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 04/06/2022 7:29 PM
vote ✅
Avatar
how is this already at the voting stage , the 100km limit is easily attainable in regions where limits arent 16db , like aus 30db, this should be shelved , HIP 45 is being shelved for ignoring the same region issues. (edited)
👎 2
✅ 1
Avatar
Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 04/06/2022 7:33 PM
apples to oranges
Avatar
Avatar
MoreDPS
how is this already at the voting stage , the 100km limit is easily attainable in regions where limits arent 16db , like aus 30db, this should be shelved , HIP 45 is being shelved for ignoring the same region issues. (edited)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/06/2022 7:33 PM
You might want to re-read the statement. Hip45 is not being shelved.
Avatar
in the propsed format it got shelved for the time being (its not what was originally announced anymore) (edited)
facepalm 1
19:34
not incorrect.
👎 1
Avatar
Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 04/06/2022 7:37 PM
AS to 58 though, this will address a current pool of current past and future gamers, as well as aligning the PoC with the DATA Transfer goal. IT's easily coded if not already inactive in the code needing two variable changes, 1 for distance and 1 for activation. And both sides have given their input, why not vote now, and get it done?
Avatar
Avatar
MoreDPS
in the propsed format it got shelved for the time being (its not what was originally announced anymore) (edited)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/06/2022 7:37 PM
"Under current Helium Network governance HIP-45 is still considered approved (see Github)."
19:38
The proposed frequency change is not the same as hip45
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
"Under current Helium Network governance HIP-45 is still considered approved (see Github)."
i agre it is, but making an arguement to nuance my words , when you understood the intended statement isnt productive
Avatar
Avatar
MoreDPS
i agre it is, but making an arguement to nuance my words , when you understood the intended statement isnt productive
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/06/2022 7:39 PM
Your statement was factually incorrect. (edited)
Avatar
your saying that whats happenign with the HIp45 is the same as what originally was proposed?
19:40
because that was my statement that the original plan had been shelved , its changed.
19:40
so its not the same plan ,
Avatar
Avatar
MoreDPS
your saying that whats happenign with the HIp45 is the same as what originally was proposed?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/06/2022 7:41 PM
The proposed frequency change was hip45 being used. The change got shelved, not the hip.
Avatar
yes, but you knew what i meant
19:41
why nuance><
Avatar
Avatar
MoreDPS
yes, but you knew what i meant
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/06/2022 7:41 PM
Factually incorrect
19:42
Last thing we need around here is more misinformation
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
The proposed frequency change was hip45 being used. The change got shelved, not the hip.
you just acknowledge there was a change.
19:42
so its not the same.
Avatar
Avatar
Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST)
AS to 58 though, this will address a current pool of current past and future gamers, as well as aligning the PoC with the DATA Transfer goal. IT's easily coded if not already inactive in the code needing two variable changes, 1 for distance and 1 for activation. And both sides have given their input, why not vote now, and get it done?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/06/2022 7:43 PM
Well the vote is active, so you got your wish. 😁
❤️‍🔥 1
Avatar
Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 04/06/2022 7:44 PM
i know, already voted soon as it hit announcements
🍻 1
Avatar
Avatar
MoreDPS
you just acknowledge there was a change.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/06/2022 7:44 PM
You said "HIP 45 is being shelved for ignoring the same region issues." That is not true.
☝️ 1
facepalm 1
Avatar
Why is there always a bunch of people who seem to argue for the sake of arguing on this stuff
Avatar
https://discord.com/channels/404106811252408320/908961947830071316/961094118593929296 "we'd like to halt any decision or vote that would modify the status quo of AU915 as the default LoRaWAN regional frequency for the Helium Network in Australia or New Zealand."
19:47
id call that a shelfing of a part of 45
Avatar
Static Laws 04/06/2022 7:48 PM
I don't really see the point in limiting the distance other than to target some gamers. If a hotspot can witness another hotspots 100+ km then it can witness a sensor. Also limiting hotspots POC distance but not data transfer range in my opinion is seems to be targeting well placed hotspots.
👎 1
👍 2
Avatar
the proposal is to drop the witness responses >100km, not denylist the hotspot if it ever witnesses another hotspot over 100km
💯 1
Avatar
Avatar
MoreDPS
id call that a shelfing of a part of 45
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/06/2022 7:50 PM
And you would be wrong
Avatar
Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 04/06/2022 7:51 PM
If a hotspot can witness another hotspots 100+ km then it can witness a sensor. is not exactly the case. Since most small sensors have no added 6dbi+ antenna sitting 30-100m in the air.
👍 2
👆 1
Avatar
Avatar
MoreDPS
id call that a shelfing of a part of 45
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/06/2022 7:51 PM
You should read what 45 actually is
Avatar
Can you both take 45 discussion to #hip-45-lora-frequency-selection
👍 3
Avatar
Avatar
Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST)
If a hotspot can witness another hotspots 100+ km then it can witness a sensor. is not exactly the case. Since most small sensors have no added 6dbi+ antenna sitting 30-100m in the air.
Static Laws 04/06/2022 7:51 PM
My mapper see 127 miles
👍 1
Avatar
Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 04/06/2022 7:52 PM
no way my non-local deployments, are getting data off my door sensor. my home deployment sure, maybe even the closest hotspot to me.
Avatar
Avatar
Static Laws
My mapper see 127 miles
how big of an antenna do you have on your mapper ?
☝️ 1
💯 1
Avatar
Avatar
Static Laws
My mapper see 127 miles
Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 04/06/2022 7:53 PM
let me know when you indoor air sensor, or doorway or foot traffic sensors are doing that.
👆 1
19:53
This is it
💪 1
Avatar
Avatar
Static Laws
Click to see attachment 🖼️
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/06/2022 7:53 PM
Those are hotspots, not sensors
Avatar
Its entirely possibly to get that kind of distance with small antennas.
💯 1
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Those are hotspots, not sensors
Static Laws 04/06/2022 7:53 PM
Wrong
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Those are hotspots, not sensors
those are hotspots receiving senors
Avatar
Avatar
Static Laws
Click to see attachment 🖼️
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/06/2022 7:54 PM
Mapping from the observatory?
👍 1
Avatar
Hm wow I was just alerted about this HIP. My thoughts: a 100km cap is inadequate and meaningless and there are better ways to resolve gaming and abuse of the system. In Australia there are many hotspots that reach over 100km (the top hotspots in Western Australia have 230km++ distance receipts over the flat land). Also this type of range is normal and expected where cattle can be spread over a large area. I have voted against HIP58
💯 3
👎 1
👍 2
Avatar
Avatar
Joey
those are hotspots receiving senors
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/06/2022 7:57 PM
Ahhh
Avatar
>100km is certainly an outlier, but not unheard of (edited)
Avatar
Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 04/06/2022 7:58 PM
i love all the people who help map the network, amazing tool and service they do for the network/community. I don't feel those represent end use case DATA transfer scenarios...
👍 2
❤️ 1
Avatar
that said, I'll still probably vote for this hip because I hate gaming more.
🙌 2
Avatar
Avatar
Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST)
i love all the people who help map the network, amazing tool and service they do for the network/community. I don't feel those represent end use case DATA transfer scenarios...
Its exactly the intent of the mapping project
Avatar
Avatar
Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST)
i love all the people who help map the network, amazing tool and service they do for the network/community. I don't feel those represent end use case DATA transfer scenarios...
The signal strength of a mapping device is pretty similar to a LoRa sensor
Avatar
they are LoRa sensors
Avatar
Avatar
Joey
that said, I'll still probably vote for this hip because I hate gaming more.
Static Laws 04/06/2022 7:59 PM
I agree the witness I will lose are worth it (edited)
🤝 2
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/06/2022 7:59 PM
This is not supposed to collect every edge case. Transmitting from the Hawaii observatories over water is of course going to have large ranges. Lol
Avatar
am I correct that if approved, the proposed action of this HIP would be to implement the distance variable that has always been there
👍 1
Avatar
Avatar
BiggieJohn
am I correct that if approved, the proposed action of this HIP would be to implement the distance variable that has always been there
That’s correct. The code is ready to go as soon as it’s approved.
Avatar
Avatar
Joey
Its exactly the intent of the mapping project
Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 04/06/2022 8:01 PM
when i see a mapper, helium tags, and lora trackers, door sensors etc do not seem the same, but amazing to know, and amazing foresight on the development.
20:02
mapper, helium tags, and lora trackers
(edited)
Avatar
Avatar
BiggieJohn
am I correct that if approved, the proposed action of this HIP would be to implement the distance variable that has always been there
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/06/2022 8:02 PM
Yeah. It was activated once before, but the 50km it was set to caused a large backlash
Avatar
Static Laws 04/06/2022 8:02 PM
Is is cool to see the power of the network when someone gets a legit 100+km witness
👍 1
Avatar
Avatar
Static Laws
Is is cool to see the power of the network when someone gets a legit 100+km witness
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/06/2022 8:03 PM
Yeah, I hit a couple of crazy 158km last week shooting down the CA central valley.
Avatar
for the few people with hotspots at high elevations . . . what perctetage of your current receive distances are over 100km WHEN NO OTHER CLOSER DATA IS RECEIVED, ie you ONLY see packets from >100km
Avatar
Avatar
BiggieJohn
for the few people with hotspots at high elevations . . . what perctetage of your current receive distances are over 100km WHEN NO OTHER CLOSER DATA IS RECEIVED, ie you ONLY see packets from >100km
Static Laws 04/06/2022 8:06 PM
Mine is very low 1 of 40 witness
Avatar
This is very normal in Australia
Avatar
Avatar
Static Laws
Mine is very low 1 of 40 witness
so you would lose out on 1 DC every 40 received . . .
👍 1
Avatar
Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 04/06/2022 8:07 PM
2.5%
Avatar
Avatar
BiggieJohn
so you would lose out on 1 DC every 40 received . . .
Static Laws 04/06/2022 8:07 PM
Probably less
Avatar
im interestd in data, not trying to argue that its not an issue
☝️ 1
Avatar
Avatar
BiggieJohn
im interestd in data, not trying to argue that its not an issue
Static Laws 04/06/2022 8:09 PM
Data will still work
Avatar
Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 04/06/2022 8:09 PM
I'm learning a lot here. felt all smart with my door sensor.
Avatar
I think that the argument about data coverage for remote farms and stuff is completely moot, both because it's a limit on PoC and not data, and nobody would deploy a sensor network at a remote location when the nearest hotspots are that far away
Avatar
Static Laws 04/06/2022 8:10 PM
It will effect gamers more than it will me. (edited)
👍 1
Avatar
Avatar
Static Laws
Data will still work
good point, this is only for PoC, not data from sensors, so all the cattle 250km away from a hoitspot will still be tracked
💯 5
Avatar
Static Laws 04/06/2022 8:11 PM
There are hotspots getting 700km witness that are gaming the network
Avatar
To stop gaming I would focus more on clusters of hotspots that are only witnessing each other. Also there is a lot of PoC manipulation going on in gaming clusters
👍 1
20:14
I think those are more important factors than distance. Distance could be capped at 300km imo
Avatar
This is just one of many tools to prevent gaming. More HIPs on deck (edited)
💥 1
Avatar
Avatar
ScuL
I think those are more important factors than distance. Distance could be capped at 300km imo
Static Laws 04/06/2022 8:18 PM
It could be a bit higher range. Not sure why it was set at 100. If I knew more about the technology and what is an acceptable range.
🙂 1
Avatar
looking at the statistics in the info provided, the number of witnesses >100km is very very low
20:37
for hotspots NOT on the denylist (edited)
Avatar
Just laying things out on the table, this Hotspot that has transferred data for my Mapper would see its witnesses cut roughly in half at the 100km threshold. https://mappers.helium.com/uplinks/hex/8928308a36bffff https://explorer.helium.com/hotspots/112gjDCudnzxfqCQw3YdsEz16CLgSAXyRGotHhArL8D4RYTmBeer/witnessed
😢 1
Avatar
ohhhh, well 1 totally legit hotspot might be affected . . . cant do it
Avatar
Not what I'm saying, but I think it's worth evaluating all angles
Avatar
Avatar
Joey
Just laying things out on the table, this Hotspot that has transferred data for my Mapper would see its witnesses cut roughly in half at the 100km threshold. https://mappers.helium.com/uplinks/hex/8928308a36bffff https://explorer.helium.com/hotspots/112gjDCudnzxfqCQw3YdsEz16CLgSAXyRGotHhArL8D4RYTmBeer/witnessed
I can relate. I hit 100km+ all the time sometimes over 200km. I must say this does make me sad that we are at the point where this has to be an option. I wish there was a better solution.
Avatar
I'm still onboard with this HIP. Better to ship this now and revisit with more information later for a 150km, 200km, etc change. The great thing is that the data will all be recorded on chain. (edited)
Avatar
We should be arguing for a lower value; that way we can increase the need for hotspots to move out of the dense urban areas out to the vast plains everyone seems to be arguing about covering. Since the network does NOT exist to provide PoC to people and it will allow data sent from over 100 km through your hotspot, I vote for 60 km.
21:21
The Earth curves about 8 inches per mile. As a result, on a flat surface with your eyes 2575 feet or so off the ground, the farthest edge that you can see is about 62.1 miles away (100 km). What sensors will be more than 2575 feet off the ground and not closer than 62.1 miles from a hotspot? And if they are, what is wrong with putting a hotspot closer? Oh wait, the data will pass if the hotspot that hears the sensor from >100km.
21:21
That's right, the network does NOT exist for you to earn tokens from hotspots far away. It exists to be a conduit for sensor data and the hotspot is the gateway for that data.
😂 1
Avatar
well, there are legit hotspots on mountains at over 2x that height . . .snd they moght lose a few witnesses
Avatar
The network does not exist to provide PoC rewards.
👍 2
Avatar
(yes, im playing devils advocate here)
Avatar
And I asked about sensors...but yes a sensor could be on top of a mountain by Denver. But sensor data will make it through.
21:26
The quality of a hotspot location is determined by how much data will pass through it once sensors become plentiful. If someone is arguing about PoC rewards, then they did the wrong math for their location. (edited)
Avatar
if you managed to put a hotspot >200km from any otehr hotspot . . .why cant you put another one halfway
Avatar
I completely concur.
21:26
You will get more rewards any ways for doing so.
👆 4
Avatar
Avatar
Joey
Just laying things out on the table, this Hotspot that has transferred data for my Mapper would see its witnesses cut roughly in half at the 100km threshold. https://mappers.helium.com/uplinks/hex/8928308a36bffff https://explorer.helium.com/hotspots/112gjDCudnzxfqCQw3YdsEz16CLgSAXyRGotHhArL8D4RYTmBeer/witnessed
Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 04/06/2022 9:45 PM
This would just force him to optimize his setup to hit the five areas he isn't hitting within the range, that he is currently over shooting. move it a little lower, or lower down the hill. lower dbi antenna various solutions. I think as it goes this will give an incentive to optimize for real world coverage Vs. outdated PoC optimization.
👍 2
Avatar
Such tunnel vision to stop gamers yet being executed so poorly. PoC security issues? Why fix the issue when we can just nerf coverage🥴
👎 1
☝️ 1
Avatar
Avatar
Joey
Just laying things out on the table, this Hotspot that has transferred data for my Mapper would see its witnesses cut roughly in half at the 100km threshold. https://mappers.helium.com/uplinks/hex/8928308a36bffff https://explorer.helium.com/hotspots/112gjDCudnzxfqCQw3YdsEz16CLgSAXyRGotHhArL8D4RYTmBeer/witnessed
This hotspot that witnessed your mapper, along with 354 of his closest friends. It really is too bad we can't see the other way around on mapper (e.g. which hexes a hotspot saw), but from the looks of it that hotspot is optimized for those long distances and it sees little (according to my limited ability clicking hexes) else.
Avatar
Avatar
groot
This hotspot that witnessed your mapper, along with 354 of his closest friends. It really is too bad we can't see the other way around on mapper (e.g. which hexes a hotspot saw), but from the looks of it that hotspot is optimized for those long distances and it sees little (according to my limited ability clicking hexes) else.
Soon! There’s a partially finished PR up for that feature.
Avatar
I really wish we had delegated staking so that when I vote for this HIP I would be able to vote all of my tokens rather than just the batch I earned since the 1st of the month.
😩 1
Avatar
As a hotspot owner who has genuinely hit 194km, 150km witness, in a small town with a few hotspots installed this is a big deal to me. Gamers will just move there cluster together I cant
Avatar
I voted for, I would like to see it set a bit further
Avatar
jertsu lil hnt boi 04/06/2022 11:16 PM
voted
Avatar
everyone complaining they hit >100Knm . .. why not deploy another hotspot at that distance ?
Avatar
Avatar
BiggieJohn
everyone complaining they hit >100Knm . .. why not deploy another hotspot at that distance ?
jertsu lil hnt boi 04/06/2022 11:27 PM
i wish i had such good relatives
Avatar
I think all of the extreme range hotspots are out in rural mountains . .. find another lower peak
23:32
if anyone witnessing >100km in a city . . .please letus know
23:34
you should be seeing plenty of other hotspots near you, why are you concerned about a few hotspos >100km
Avatar
I've seen city hotspots do it, but only when the network is about to die because otherwise the 300 hotspots in between make the odds of being one of 14 slim to none.
Avatar
Avatar
BiggieJohn
you should be seeing plenty of other hotspots near you, why are you concerned about a few hotspos >100km
jertsu lil hnt boi 04/06/2022 11:35 PM
i dunno homie ya all wont be happy with me but i voted against it
Avatar
Avatar
BiggieJohn
I think all of the extreme range hotspots are out in rural mountains . .. find another lower peak
I dont think the correct path forward is to discriminate against hotspots locations, whether the be metro , or lucky enough to provide coverage in rural areas. also being concerned about a few hotspots because for rural areas thats may be all there is, deincentivising areas that need more expansion is counter intuitive to network growth
☝️ 1
💯 1
Avatar
So far we've seen two hotspots that provided coverage (for sensors) above 100km and one of them is (in my opinion) disqualified for only providing coverage far away while neglecting near coverage. If you don't cover both the whole argument of 'but I'm providing coverage in rural areas' goes away.
💯 1
👎 1
Avatar
Avatar
MoreDPS
I dont think the correct path forward is to discriminate against hotspots locations, whether the be metro , or lucky enough to provide coverage in rural areas. also being concerned about a few hotspots because for rural areas thats may be all there is, deincentivising areas that need more expansion is counter intuitive to network growth
exclave rural areas should see the others in that area, not ONLY hotspots >100km out (edited)
Avatar
Avatar
groot
So far we've seen two hotspots that provided coverage (for sensors) above 100km and one of them is (in my opinion) disqualified for only providing coverage far away while neglecting near coverage. If you don't cover both the whole argument of 'but I'm providing coverage in rural areas' goes away.
maybe there needs to be some sort of density scaling, hexes in rural areas could reasonably have a furhter reach then hexes extremely dense areas should only see within a few hexes
👍 1
Avatar
It is going to be extremely difficult for a blockchain to correctly identify what a rural area is since it doesn't have that information. Besides, I don't think limitations that artificial are a good idea. The whole 100km thing is a sanity check because, as hashc0de pointed out in yesterdays community call, current use case and range is <50km and 100km is already double that.
👍 1
👎 1
Avatar
Avatar
BiggieJohn
maybe there needs to be some sort of density scaling, hexes in rural areas could reasonably have a furhter reach then hexes extremely dense areas should only see within a few hexes
this i could agree with this or , each regions max DB allowed put thru FSPL algo so each region has a different limit which would correspond with their legal broadcast limit.
Avatar
Avatar
groot
It is going to be extremely difficult for a blockchain to correctly identify what a rural area is since it doesn't have that information. Besides, I don't think limitations that artificial are a good idea. The whole 100km thing is a sanity check because, as hashc0de pointed out in yesterdays community call, current use case and range is <50km and 100km is already double that.
when they were doing these test what region were they in ? 16db EU ? this info makes all the difference
Avatar
Does it? If you think so please prove it.
Avatar
well areas with for example 30DB are going to be able to Transmit further than 16db ? we agree on this?
23:47
they wouldnt have broken local compliance for their testing if it was to be in spec for testing.
Avatar
30dBm is going to transmit further than 16dBm given exactly the same SF's etc, yes we can agree on that.
Avatar
the same being said for that different frequencies travel further better ( generally lower freq attentuate less) , so if were trying to paint 433Mhz with the same brush as 868 and 915 all with different Transmit levels one limit isnt sufficient
Avatar
the difference between 905 and 923 isnt that significant
Avatar
no but 433 to 915 is
Avatar
i dont know the math on that, yes there is a differnce, physics should tell us how much that should be (edited)
Avatar
Is it normal for everyone that the witnesses are disappearing?will it be fixed?
Avatar
i do support the idea of a limit to prevent gaming, but as its being implemented as a one size fits all, when clearly it doesnt take into account , 1) region TX limits diffrence 2) the different frequency will travel attentuate differently for 433,868,915 and as a result will travel differrent distance.
👎 1
Avatar
You can't look at it solely from a 'Moah Powah!' perspective though. You have to take into account that US915 uses SF9 and EU868 uses SF12.
Avatar
yes channel and side channel interference for respective areas will affect real world implemtation too if you want to go that far.
Avatar
Well, I wouldn't exactly call looking at SF a stretch to be honest, there is significant sensitivity difference between SF9 and SF12. About 8dB according to most literature.
Avatar
https://www.everythingrf.com/rf-calculators/free-space-path-loss-calculator basic 30db case difference between 433 and 928 (edited)
00:16
at 100km @433 95.1 db vs @928 101.8 db loss (edited)
00:16
6 db is only about 4x signal
Avatar
which still returns values greater than -128db ive seen miners witness at. (edited)
00:26
at 100km
Avatar
Obviously Free Space Path Loss is not going to accurately predict realistic path loss.
Avatar
no its best case sceanrio 🙂
00:27
and unrealistic
Avatar
Whats the minimum dBm your miners at US915 witness? -130 or something? (edited)
Avatar
if you do the numbers correctly for some regions the proposed value of 100km doesnt even make sense when it well below what is achiveable, not 30-50km and double what they claim in the HIP information on the vote page is misleading (edited)
👎 1
👍 1
00:33
i think -130 not certain , im not in that region.
00:34
proably more dpend on chipset sensitivity at that point
Avatar
Avatar
MoreDPS
proably more dpend on chipset sensitivity at that point
That was the point I tried to make, sensitivity is much higher at SF12 than SF9🙃
Avatar
gotcha 🙂
Avatar
SX1276, a often used chip in sensors, only outputs 20dBm max btw with high efficiency mode at 14dBm
Avatar
im going to do the calcs for each region and see if there actually is a region which matches up with their numbers.
01:05
even china at 433mhz and 10dbm according to wiki (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LPD433) , is going to be above -130dbm reception @ 100km in perfect case scenario by loss of 115db , leaving at least 15DB to -130. also in RL more loss is expected. (edited)
LPD433 (low power device 433 MHz) is a UHF band in which license free communication devices are allowed to operate in some regions. The frequencies correspond with the ITU region 1 ISM band of 433.050 MHz to 434.790 MHz, and operation is limited to CEPT countries. The frequencies used are within the 70-centimeter band, which is currently reserve...
Avatar
Avatar
BiggieJohn
if anyone witnessing >100km in a city . . .please letus know
319km legit
01:10
china is more adversely affected by this limit than i realised.
Avatar
Avatar
619OTA
319km legit
feuerkralle2011 04/07/2022 1:25 AM
But how many witnesses does one loose vs how much can we regain from gaming hotspots? I assume that legit hotspots dont actually reach too far that often (maybe edge case people with water) but on the other hand there is no real benefit going with coverage over 100km considering that sensors have small antennas and transmit little energy to be able to run on batteries.
💯 1
Avatar
Hi, how can i vote over Helium app?
Avatar
Avatar
Magician
Hi, how can i vote over Helium app?
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 04/07/2022 2:41 AM
You can vote here by scanning the QR of your choice https://heliumvote.com/14KhDJUdvAXNVVP5m5cqEaLGNC859sXvpHtxWX9r999pZKC8xAs
HIP 58 seeks to nullify a certain gaming vector of Proof of Coverage rewards by aligning the expected range of PoC with the range of LoRaWAN devices. The current PoC mechanics allow manipulation of witness RF data at long distances and thus, we find evidence of gaming at the edges. This improvement implements a sanity check filter on Proof of C...
Avatar
Avatar
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪
You can vote here by scanning the QR of your choice https://heliumvote.com/14KhDJUdvAXNVVP5m5cqEaLGNC859sXvpHtxWX9r999pZKC8xAs
Yes, thank you for your kind help but i couldnt find from which menu i must scan the QR in Hellium app
Avatar
Avatar
Magician
Yes, thank you for your kind help but i couldnt find from which menu i must scan the QR in Hellium app
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 04/07/2022 2:46 AM
You have to click on either for or against HIP58, then it shows you a qr code
Avatar
Yes i found it but i couldnt find how i must scan it in the helium app, i couldn find any menu in the Helium app to scan this QR code. I will scan it with directly my devices cam?
Avatar
Avatar
Magician
Yes i found it but i couldnt find how i must scan it in the helium app, i couldn find any menu in the Helium app to scan this QR code. I will scan it with directly my devices cam?
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 04/07/2022 2:50 AM
Ah, sorry i misunderstood you, if you go to send hnt, you can use the QR logo to activate your camera
Avatar
No need sorry, it is my fault i can not speak understandable English 🙂 I m sorry. Should i pay any HNT for voting?
Avatar
Avatar
Magician
No need sorry, it is my fault i can not speak understandable English 🙂 I m sorry. Should i pay any HNT for voting?
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 04/07/2022 3:00 AM
Your English is really good! I just misunderstood what you said haha. Yeah you'll be paying a small fee in DC (it's less than a dollar)
Avatar
Thank you so much, for your kind help. Take care 🙂
Avatar
Avatar
Magician
Thank you so much, for your kind help. Take care 🙂
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 04/07/2022 3:06 AM
You're welcome! 👍
Avatar
Avatar
619OTA
319km legit
Legit but not needed whatsoever and very unlikely that my soil sensor, dog tracker, or tractor trailer locator makes it that far.
👎 2
🤬 2
💯 3
👍 1
👆 1
Avatar
Avatar
KeithR
Legit but not needed whatsoever and very unlikely that my soil sensor, dog tracker, or tractor trailer locator makes it that far.
Wtff xd
03:59
If i earn less money im gonna power off my lora gateway in this situation u never find your dog
😂 5
Avatar
darksarcasm 04/07/2022 4:22 AM
We need more hip about VPN users. Also this hip good for honest miners 👏
Avatar
Avatar
619OTA
319km legit
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/07/2022 5:46 AM
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Click to see attachment 🖼️
This is about the level of luck involved.
Avatar
Avatar
groot
This is about the level of luck involved.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/07/2022 5:50 AM
That is actual a skill shot. Seems two golfers just did that in a recent golf tourney. The shots were so similar the balls hit each other on the putting green. Lol
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
That is actual a skill shot. Seems two golfers just did that in a recent golf tourney. The shots were so similar the balls hit each other on the putting green. Lol
This proves I know nothing of golf 😂
😄 1
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/07/2022 5:51 AM
Was hearing about on the radio yesterday 🙂
05:52
Honestly never heard of a deliberate shot like that before either. 😄
Avatar
Avatar
619OTA
319km legit
looks like a significant number of witnesses <100km, the few >100km that would be lost would be of minimal impact
Avatar
Original message was deleted or could not be loaded.
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 04/07/2022 6:38 AM
If you would write your opinion with less name calling and more formal, I'm sure it will be received better by anyone reading it.
❄️ 1
Avatar
Original message was deleted or could not be loaded.
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 04/07/2022 6:39 AM
That's called being emotional
❄️ 1
Avatar
Original message was deleted or could not be loaded.
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 04/07/2022 6:40 AM
I prefer constructive and rational criticism instead of "REEEEEE WHY YOU STEAL MY REWARDS URGH"-statements
Avatar
Original message was deleted or could not be loaded.
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 04/07/2022 6:42 AM
bad management sorry ... seems you guys try to fuck people with great setups who invested a lot , never forget helium encourgaged for great setups ..... imagine a big company with critical holes that leave the door open for years .... it's a joke sorry but yeah those days it's easy to say i'm dev maybe start learn some basics about the thing you want to enroll and shout ...
That's some CoD-Lobby level of criticism
Avatar
Original message was deleted or could not be loaded.
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 04/07/2022 6:44 AM
i think
Are you doubting your own words? Anyway i just wanted to say that you could deliver your criticism more rational with less emotions, it doesn't help the discussion
Avatar
Original message was deleted or could not be loaded.
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 04/07/2022 6:44 AM
Watch your language
Avatar
Original message was deleted or could not be loaded.
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 04/07/2022 6:45 AM
It's freedom of speech, not freedom of shit talking
😂 2
👍 2
❄️ 1
06:47
Just do away with the "fecal expressions" alright? You can complain all you want then
🤐 1
Avatar
Original message was deleted or could not be loaded.
feuerkralle2011 04/07/2022 6:52 AM
If you actually think that this is the case... or you experience that right now for yourself then you are in the wrong here. There is a big difference between someone having the antenna indoors and the ones who got it outdoors with masts and stuff
👍 1
💯 1
Avatar
Original message was deleted or could not be loaded.
feuerkralle2011 04/07/2022 6:55 AM
Sounds like your placement isn't as good as you try to make it look like here
💯 2
06:55
I dont need anything from you however if you loose against a indoor miner you do something wrong
Avatar
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 04/07/2022 6:56 AM
@Deleted User Thats cool and all, but you are getting off topic, if you wanna flex with your setups, please go to #general and keep this #hip-58-poc-distance-limit related
Avatar
Original message was deleted or could not be loaded.
The purpose of this HIP is solely to combat some recent cheaters that managed to abuse the system to witness ridiculous distances. The solution is a lazy one and everyone knows it, but some people are trying to mask the laziness behind the "sensors don't reach over 100km anyway" argument. Will this actually stop the cheaters? Maybe they won't get 15 hnt per day but only 10 with this new rule. Maybe they will move to very dense areas to combat the 100km rule? What then, move the limit to 30km? And the implementation has one big flaw: every witness over the limit is invalid. So imagine 2 setups: one is a great setup with great line of sight and is able to reach 150km, one is a normal setup, able to reach 30-50km. They both send a beacon but the great setup has a few invalid witnesses and makes less money on the beacon than the poor setup, simply because he has better coverage. How ridiculous is that?
👎 1
☝️ 1
💯 1
✅ 1
👍 1
Avatar
Original message was deleted or could not be loaded.
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 04/07/2022 7:01 AM
Removing off-topic
Avatar
Avatar
belzebut
The purpose of this HIP is solely to combat some recent cheaters that managed to abuse the system to witness ridiculous distances. The solution is a lazy one and everyone knows it, but some people are trying to mask the laziness behind the "sensors don't reach over 100km anyway" argument. Will this actually stop the cheaters? Maybe they won't get 15 hnt per day but only 10 with this new rule. Maybe they will move to very dense areas to combat the 100km rule? What then, move the limit to 30km? And the implementation has one big flaw: every witness over the limit is invalid. So imagine 2 setups: one is a great setup with great line of sight and is able to reach 150km, one is a normal setup, able to reach 30-50km. They both send a beacon but the great setup has a few invalid witnesses and makes less money on the beacon than the poor setup, simply because he has better coverage. How ridiculous is that?
feuerkralle2011 04/07/2022 7:05 AM
the amount of legit witnesses above 100km isn't very high. Yes very great setups will loose some witnesses however reducing the amount stolen by gamers will probably even this out. And yes, sensors aren't very good in transmitting on such big distances. You are using a frequency with less then 1w of energy after all and run those sensors on battery. And, after all, if we find 100km doesn't lead to the results we hope for we can't only decrease it but also increase it if deemed necessary
💯 3
Avatar
but the great setup has a few invalid witnesses and makes less money on the beacon than the poor setup, simply because he has better coverage
That's only because the witness is marked as invalid instead of being dropped. That part I can agree with you that it doesn't make much sense, but the other side is that we still have the data in the blockchain for analysis
Avatar
Avatar
ricopt5
but the great setup has a few invalid witnesses and makes less money on the beacon than the poor setup, simply because he has better coverage
That's only because the witness is marked as invalid instead of being dropped. That part I can agree with you that it doesn't make much sense, but the other side is that we still have the data in the blockchain for analysis
It should definitely be dropped. But that involves additional coding and work, and the devs don't like doing that. And while they're at it, they might as well display the full list of witnesses, not just the 14 that won the lottery.
Avatar
Avatar
belzebut
It should definitely be dropped. But that involves additional coding and work, and the devs don't like doing that. And while they're at it, they might as well display the full list of witnesses, not just the 14 that won the lottery.
On the one hand you want it to be dropped on the other hand you want to list all witnesses? I don't think I understand what you want anymore. The great setups in your example above would be bidirectionally great, I assume, so the poor setup will also have a few invalids as it is witnessed by the great setups or do I misunderstand your example?
Avatar
Avatar
belzebut
It should definitely be dropped. But that involves additional coding and work, and the devs don't like doing that. And while they're at it, they might as well display the full list of witnesses, not just the 14 that won the lottery.
And while they're at it, they might as well display the full list of witnesses
That would make the transaction too big. That needs to be off-chain #hip-50-display-all-witnesses
💯 1
Avatar
Avatar
groot
On the one hand you want it to be dropped on the other hand you want to list all witnesses? I don't think I understand what you want anymore. The great setups in your example above would be bidirectionally great, I assume, so the poor setup will also have a few invalids as it is witnessed by the great setups or do I misunderstand your example?
That was a bit off-topic but yes, all witness should be listed to provide more transparency of the network, so people can improve their setups by working with real data, not selective variance-driven data that requires running a setup for long periods of time to have a decent grasp of what is happening. In my example the great setup loses rewards when beaconing (due to invalids), the poor one does not. The poor setup might get invalids to great setups but surely not to the same extent.
👎 1
Avatar
The ETL is down so I am unable to provide more data than in the HIP, but the amount of witnesses > 100km is limited.
💯 1
Avatar
so im trying to decide on the vote. but my issue is... im asserted correctly but if i have a lot of activity with a wrongfully asserted hotspots 100+km my rewards will decrease as i will start having more invalids...is this the case? or it will be on the badly asserted one?
Avatar
Avatar
WTV
so im trying to decide on the vote. but my issue is... im asserted correctly but if i have a lot of activity with a wrongfully asserted hotspots 100+km my rewards will decrease as i will start having more invalids...is this the case? or it will be on the badly asserted one?
Both will be "penalized". But I seriously doubt your hotspot mostly talks with hotspots farther than 100km.
Avatar
Avatar
WTV
so im trying to decide on the vote. but my issue is... im asserted correctly but if i have a lot of activity with a wrongfully asserted hotspots 100+km my rewards will decrease as i will start having more invalids...is this the case? or it will be on the badly asserted one?
Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 04/07/2022 8:25 AM
atm poc interval, 1 hotspot would equal roughly 1 witness lost per 48 hours. - one would assume, the amount not earned by cheaters re-distributed to legit setups would counter balance the tiny loss you would see from that 100km+ witness
Avatar
Avatar
ricopt5
Both will be "penalized". But I seriously doubt your hotspot mostly talks with hotspots farther than 100km.
didnt say mostly. but my mapper around a place i wanted to deploy an antenna made contact with 2 hotspots 800+km away
08:35
why have them as invalid?? why not just take them out of the random 14, if they are 100+km away just take them out of the equation. not fair to have them invalids
Avatar
Avatar
WTV
didnt say mostly. but my mapper around a place i wanted to deploy an antenna made contact with 2 hotspots 800+km away
Ah! They are not really 800km away! Those are definitely cheaters using packet forwarders or wrong assertion! (edited)
👍 1
Avatar
Avatar
WTV
why have them as invalid?? why not just take them out of the random 14, if they are 100+km away just take them out of the equation. not fair to have them invalids
Two reasons I think. 1. The code is already in place 2. Marking as invalid instead of dropping makes it so that the witness is recorded on the Blockchain for analysis
Avatar
Avatar
ricopt5
Ah! They are not really 800km away! Those are definitely cheaters using packet forwarders or wrong assertion! (edited)
or just asserted in the wrong location...
Avatar
Avatar
WTV
or just asserted in the wrong location...
Yes, I also stated that
👍 1
Avatar
but you penalizing correctly asserted hotspots..
👎 1
Avatar
Avatar
WTV
but you penalizing correctly asserted hotspots..
Well, yes. But it's a very very small percentage of rewards. And hotspots shouldn't be rewarded for useless coverage anyway.
💯 1
Avatar
Avatar
ricopt5
Well, yes. But it's a very very small percentage of rewards. And hotspots shouldn't be rewarded for useless coverage anyway.
exactly but with this in place you will be punishing correctly asserted ones also.
👆 3
👎 1
Avatar
If I send out a beacon, and one of them is over 100kms away (they are cheating, not me) and then I only get a 13 witness beacon. Isn't that affecting the legit setups?
Avatar
Avatar
WTV
exactly but with this in place you will be punishing correctly asserted ones also.
Huh. My answer to that is exactly what you responded to
Avatar
if they can find a way to see the activity of a HS and see everything they do is 100+km then put it on deny list . no need to punish correclty asserted location
Avatar
You're right, this is going to affect very very few hot spots (edited)
08:52
Just weird tho
Avatar
You might win more by the fact that the same holds for everyone
Avatar
I just think it might be better to ignore the 100km witness and move onto another so we still get 14 witnesses
Avatar
there is no winning... if they are part of the lottery and can be counted for invalids there is no good from this hip
08:55
just the risk of having a few more invalids
Avatar
"3. We also assume that future proposals can change the number. " this is encouraging tho
🤣 1
Avatar
Avatar
WTV
there is no winning... if they are part of the lottery and can be counted for invalids there is no good from this hip
It will still be a zero sum game so every invalid will make others earn more. Simple as that.
☝️ 2
Avatar
I like this idea and am 100% on board with the hard, 100km limit. Seems like it's really niche edge cases where two great setups are able to witness each other >100km away that this HIP could catch out. I get the point of keeping those >100km as invalids however; It could mean hotspots beaconing are unnecessarily penalised when other witnesses nearer could have taken the place of an invalid > 100km. According to HIP-15, it would reduce the earnings of the baconer in this scenario https://github.com/helium/HIP/blob/main/0015-beaconing-rewards.md. It would be great to see them dropped and recorded as dropped, rather than being placed as invalid. The dropped list could then be used to identify serial offenders and add to the banlist. A dropped list could potentially be maintained by Validators when #hip-55-validator-challenges comes into play as part of them orchestrating challenges. (edited)
🤤 1
👎 1
💩 1
👍 2
💯 1
🤌 1
Avatar
It will reduce the beaconers reward from 1.89 reward units down to 1.87 reward units, that's so far behind the dot (in HNT) that you probably won't even notice. (edited)
Avatar
As soon as the cheaters find out you're hard capping at 100km they will work around that in less than 24hrs making this HIP pretty well pointless tbh.
💯 2
☝️ 3
👍 1
👎 1
facepalm 1
Avatar
Avatar
r4wk
As soon as the cheaters find out you're hard capping at 100km they will work around that in less than 24hrs making this HIP pretty well pointless tbh.
This 👆 this thing will only lower the range of devices,nothing else
💯 2
👎 1
Avatar
Avatar
r4wk
As soon as the cheaters find out you're hard capping at 100km they will work around that in less than 24hrs making this HIP pretty well pointless tbh.
Exactly!! it’s like we are talking about gun control. 🤣 Oh gamers witness over 100km?! Ok let’s make nobody witness over 100km
👆 2
facepalm 1
👎 1
Avatar
Okay but what about ppl like me who deployed their hotspots at high places(above sea level) with this in mid to send and receive signal from distant places ?
☝️ 3
09:51
because i am in a very rural area and this is my only option so making this cap is like my hotspot its useless
09:52
and i dont cheat the system
09:53
mind*
Avatar
Avatar
TheArchon
Okay but what about ppl like me who deployed their hotspots at high places(above sea level) with this in mid to send and receive signal from distant places ?
Yeah good setups will be nerfed. Devs don’t want to fix the cybersecurity holes that have existed for a while. Because it’s easier to put a bandaid on it than restructure PoC mechanics. (edited)
👎 1
Avatar
well thats not fair
09:55
i mean this is “peoples network”
Avatar
Too bad the ETL is down because I would've loved to do some queries to figure out not just how many witnesses are invalidated from this but also how much per hotspot.
Avatar
and you clap your greatest contributors to the network
👎 1
Avatar
Avatar
TheArchon
because i am in a very rural area and this is my only option so making this cap is like my hotspot its useless
you ONLY see witnesses >100km ?
Avatar
i know this is the new hip but i am asking what about ppl like me who see witnesses from more than 100km
10:11
and with good setups
10:13
because i am in a rural area and i install my hotspot really high so i can see from more than 100 km
Avatar
Avatar
BiggieJohn
you ONLY see witnesses >100km ?
aaah no you can only witness from less than 100km but no more than 100km
Avatar
Avatar
TheArchon
i know this is the new hip but i am asking what about ppl like me who see witnesses from more than 100km
feuerkralle2011 04/07/2022 10:21 AM
Well, to be honest, people like you will loose some witnesses. At least for the ones above 100km
10:22
Do you have any number about how often you see witnesses reaching further then 100km ?
Avatar
Avatar
feuerkralle2011
Do you have any number about how often you see witnesses reaching further then 100km ?
every single day between 10 and 25
Avatar
Pirate_ProfTK 04/07/2022 10:44 AM
I don't know whether this was mentioned before. But this HIP would hurt OTG and lone wolves. I am mainly looking at lone wolves in the middle of boonies. If the only PoC they see are miners over 100km away, after this HIP is the expectation of the Devs is that rural miners will move closer to the clusters? Also is there alternatives to incentivise rural hotspots establishments, since industries I personally look into such as overland logistics tracking may rely on some middle of nowhere hotspots.
👆 1
Avatar
seems like an opportuinty to place more hotspots . . .less then 100km apart (edited)
Avatar
This part is an issue.. If approved, this proposal would impose a 100 km limit to Proof-of-Coverage witnessing and this value can be modified further through governance in the future What if after 100km they lower it to 50km. In my humble opinion this is just patching an issue not really finding a solution for it (edited)
💯 1
Avatar
no one ever said this was the be all , end all solution to gamers
Avatar
Avatar
TheArchon
and with good setups
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/07/2022 11:32 AM
This myth of "a good setup" needs to go away. A hotspot that is witnessing over 100km is not a "good setup". It's useless to the network. The point of the network is data, not POC. (edited)
💯 1
👎 2
Avatar
Avatar
BiggieJohn
no one ever said this was the be all , end all solution to gamers
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/07/2022 11:33 AM
Exactly, this it one tool of many.
Avatar
I see the same pro argument over and over, average hotspot will not be affected. Yeah man, we got that, like a long time ago. What you don't understand is that is affecting the top setups by a lot. And that is really bad. I have been refraining myself for a long time to say it, but it seems to me like there's a communist mentality looming over this "people's network". And that is really bad for the network, as there is no incentive to improve the setup. And this is not the only HIP working against that. Helium should actually focus on doing the opposite, increase the reward gap between a shit setup and a top setup as these are the most useful to the network and with the right incentive people will compete for it.
facepalm 1
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
This myth of "a good setup" needs to go away. A hotspot that is witnessing over 100km is not a "good setup". It's useless to the network. The point of the network is data, not POC. (edited)
How could you be more wrong than this? If it's witnessing over 100km, be sure that hotspot has a great signal at 0-30km and can be used reliably for data.
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/07/2022 11:37 AM
They are not "top setups"... they are setups to maximise POC, not data.
👆 1
Avatar
It is very unfortunate that the ETL is currently out of business, but top hotspot will likely be defined as a crazy high mountain with a very specific antenna setup that is optimized just for far witnesses.
👍 1
Avatar
increase rewards for shit setups ? why ?
Avatar
Avatar
groot
It is very unfortunate that the ETL is currently out of business, but top hotspot will likely be defined as a crazy high mountain with a very specific antenna setup that is optimized just for far witnesses.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/07/2022 11:37 AM
Yeah, what happend to the ETL? I think I missed a memo. 😦
Avatar
Don't know, one day it was, next day it wasn't
😢 1
Avatar
Avatar
619OTA
increase rewards for shit setups ? why ?
Do you have a setup that will be severely affected by this limit?
Avatar
Avatar
belzebut
I see the same pro argument over and over, average hotspot will not be affected. Yeah man, we got that, like a long time ago. What you don't understand is that is affecting the top setups by a lot. And that is really bad. I have been refraining myself for a long time to say it, but it seems to me like there's a communist mentality looming over this "people's network". And that is really bad for the network, as there is no incentive to improve the setup. And this is not the only HIP working against that. Helium should actually focus on doing the opposite, increase the reward gap between a shit setup and a top setup as these are the most useful to the network and with the right incentive people will compete for it.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/07/2022 11:39 AM
"communist mentality"? lmao... Couldn't be further from the truth. This is pure capitolism. We need s functional network so we can all make money. Not some POC pity party.
Avatar
hard to tell with the network right now. but yes. half my witeness are over 100km (edited)
11:39
im on a mountain peak outside the city.
11:40
bump the distance to 200km and ill be on board with this hip
Avatar
Avatar
619OTA
hard to tell with the network right now. but yes. half my witeness are over 100km (edited)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/07/2022 11:40 AM
Your what now? 😉 lol
😂 1
Avatar
still drinking coffee 😂
😆 1
11:41
that tax video got to me
11:41
still spelt it wrong. dont care. lol
😆 1
Avatar
Avatar
619OTA
hard to tell with the network right now. but yes. half my witeness are over 100km (edited)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/07/2022 11:43 AM
I mean, I do get it, this will affect hotspots like yours. But I feel like we have to treat this as we were getting rewards we really shouldn't have been if Helium had set this up right in the first place.
Avatar
Bump it to 500 and everyone will be onboard and at the same time it will be useless.
💯 1
Avatar
500 is dumb.
💯 1
Avatar
Many will say the same about 200
Avatar
i would say 300 max. ive seen legit 300+ ... but like ET said. is it useful for the network
👍 1
11:46
im saying 200 cuz the 300s are rare. 100s are common... you wanna be able to grow the network. dont limit it to 100
Avatar
Avatar
groot
It is very unfortunate that the ETL is currently out of business, but top hotspot will likely be defined as a crazy high mountain with a very specific antenna setup that is optimized just for far witnesses.
So it's optimized just for far witness and has poor coverage at 0-100km distance? How does that make any sense? I'm now more inclined to think people don't like the truth that you don't need so many hotspots to make a good network, and the fact that a mountain or tower install provides the value and coverage of 20 mediocre hotspots.
Avatar
100s are not at all common, have you read the HIP? If not there are some great explanations in there about the proposed values.
Avatar
Avatar
619OTA
i would say 300 max. ive seen legit 300+ ... but like ET said. is it useful for the network
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/07/2022 11:46 AM
I feel like this will also help spread the network. If you can't just sprikle a few hotspots around an area and instead need to fill in the gaps in a 100km world, we'd get better real data coverage.
Avatar
ive been around for almost 9 months now! seems every vote always get passed when can we vote on the VOTING SYSTEM!!???
11:47
may be the wrong place but this is an active vote
Avatar
you can vote now
Avatar
Avatar
belzebut
So it's optimized just for far witness and has poor coverage at 0-100km distance? How does that make any sense? I'm now more inclined to think people don't like the truth that you don't need so many hotspots to make a good network, and the fact that a mountain or tower install provides the value and coverage of 20 mediocre hotspots.
Directional antennas...
Avatar
Avatar
619OTA
you can vote now
no point with my little hnt.i vote every time
11:48
whales take over
Avatar
Avatar
Rainnmakerr
no point with my little hnt.i vote every time
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/07/2022 11:48 AM
Every vote counts, but not every vote can sway a vote. Same as any other voting.
Avatar
Excellent hip. F the gamers the packet forwarders
Avatar
Avatar
Rainnmakerr
whales take over
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/07/2022 11:48 AM
minnows can kill a whale 😉
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Every vote counts, but not every vote can sway a vote. Same as any other voting.
care to elaborate on the hnt part
Avatar
Yes yes yes to the vote
Avatar
That's a bad argument about voting in general, and this time not at all true as currently the avg amount of HNT in the 'for' camp is lower than in the 'against' camp.
Avatar
I have had enough of this gaming
Avatar
Avatar
Rainnmakerr
care to elaborate on the hnt part
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/07/2022 11:49 AM
I didn't mention HNT?
Avatar
Avatar
groot
Directional antennas...
Of course there is no point of installing an omni with a mountain behind your back to pick up noise from nothing. And so is on a balcony install. I don't see the relevance.
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
minnows can kill a whale 😉
seems to not work as of now, i always see a greta amout of people against but the vote says diff. every time
Avatar
Avatar
Rainnmakerr
seems to not work as of now, i always see a greta amout of people against but the vote says diff. every time
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/07/2022 11:49 AM
You need to re-look at previous votes...
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
I didn't mention HNT?
thats what im saying, whales out vote MOST! NO?
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
You need to re-look at previous votes...
ok will do, i could be wrong
Avatar
Avatar
belzebut
I see the same pro argument over and over, average hotspot will not be affected. Yeah man, we got that, like a long time ago. What you don't understand is that is affecting the top setups by a lot. And that is really bad. I have been refraining myself for a long time to say it, but it seems to me like there's a communist mentality looming over this "people's network". And that is really bad for the network, as there is no incentive to improve the setup. And this is not the only HIP working against that. Helium should actually focus on doing the opposite, increase the reward gap between a shit setup and a top setup as these are the most useful to the network and with the right incentive people will compete for it.
Dude i have one of the top most location with 10 dbi and i dont reach 100 kms. Only gamers / packet forwarders can achieve this .
Avatar
it just seems that way ya know!
Avatar
Avatar
Rainnmakerr
thats what im saying, whales out vote MOST! NO?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/07/2022 11:50 AM
Soundslike a discussion for #hip-41-governance-by-token-lock-v2 , not here. 🙂
👍 1
Avatar
Avatar
chicagomed
Dude i have one of the top most location with 10 dbi and i dont reach 100 kms. Only gamers / packet forwarders can achieve this .
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/07/2022 11:50 AM
Well no... there are legit setups that hit over 100km
✅ 2
Avatar
Avatar
belzebut
Of course there is no point of installing an omni with a mountain behind your back to pick up noise from nothing. And so is on a balcony install. I don't see the relevance.
Yesterday we had a prime example of a hotspot with a beautifully focussed antenna that witnessed both beacons and mappers at 200km but nothing <100km.
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Well no... there are legit setups that hit over 100km
Less than 1%
Avatar
Avatar
chicagomed
Less than 1%
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/07/2022 11:51 AM
Back that up with data
Avatar
i may not be reading clearly, but whats the max distance in this hip?
Avatar
Avatar
chicagomed
Less than 1%
Depends on the topology, maybe you live in a very flat area
Avatar
Avatar
Rainnmakerr
i may not be reading clearly, but whats the max distance in this hip?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/07/2022 11:51 AM
100km for POC. Data has no distance cap.
👍 1
Avatar
the incentive of F ing the gamers is much more than losing 1%
11:52
I occasionally crosses 100 km
11:52
I have 8 top locations
11:52
I am happy to give that up to stop gaming
11:53
I know how to setup packet forwarders forwarding poc packets to multiple miners but never did .
11:53
I want helium to excel
11:54
This hip is an excellent step towards stopping the gaming at the same time not affecting the avg hotspot at all , may effect 1% legitimate setups but stop 80% of gaming happening at the moment
Avatar
Avatar
chicagomed
I know how to setup packet forwarders forwarding poc packets to multiple miners but never did .
But you don't want Helium to fix that problem. You just want a distance limit.
facepalm 1
👎 1
Avatar
Avatar
belzebut
But you don't want Helium to fix that problem. You just want a distance limit.
I assume you have a setup with witnesses above 100k? How many witnesses total and how many above 100k?
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
This myth of "a good setup" needs to go away. A hotspot that is witnessing over 100km is not a "good setup". It's useless to the network. The point of the network is data, not POC. (edited)
Agree
🤝 2
Avatar
here is the kicker... Sorry my OTG friends is that our hotspots transmit at 0.5w. sensors and such generally dont transmit nearly that much power. that being said how is the data device even gunna reach our great setups?
👆 1
Avatar
Avatar
belzebut
But you don't want Helium to fix that problem. You just want a distance limit.
Even apple isnt 100% secure. We cant expect helium to have 100% gaming proof software but these sort of decisions will definitly curb the gamjng
Avatar
Avatar
groot
I assume you have a setup with witnesses above 100k? How many witnesses total and how many above 100k?
Nope, i have mostly city setups with very few over 100km and will not be affected by this. I just think it's a bad idea for the reasons mentioned.
Avatar
my 0.25w tracker will reach about 25-30km when im on a hill over looking the hotspots. (results my differ)
12:00
with a 1.2dbi antenna
Avatar
That's too bad, I would honestly love to hear someone with one of those 'great' setups how many witnesses he is actually going to lose. I doubt that there are many. And as Mogual correctly surmised (and part of the reason of this HIP) sensors are never going to scream back at 4W.
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/07/2022 12:02 PM
grumblefinetimeforthedamnetltogodowngrumble
12:02
lol
Avatar
Avatar
Moguai
here is the kicker... Sorry my OTG friends is that our hotspots transmit at 0.5w. sensors and such generally dont transmit nearly that much power. that being said how is the data device even gunna reach our great setups?
your "great setup" is only great for PoC . . .the network is built to pass data, not just prove coverage
👆 1
💯 1
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/07/2022 12:06 PM
checks in on voting Looks like the yes currently has 85.79% of the weighted vote, and 84.29% of votes.
12:07
So, no whales swaying the vote so far.
Avatar
Pirate_ProfTK 04/07/2022 12:08 PM
I think the better discussion that needs to have is how can the people be incentivise to put hotspots to cover gaps of coverage (along interstate highways, etc). cause those types of lone wolves get effected by this
💯 2
Avatar
Avatar
Pirate_ProfTK
I think the better discussion that needs to have is how can the people be incentivise to put hotspots to cover gaps of coverage (along interstate highways, etc). cause those types of lone wolves get effected by this
Counter question: why should they be rewarded for 300km of coverage when they only provide 100km?
👍 1
Avatar
Avatar
Pirate_ProfTK
I think the better discussion that needs to have is how can the people be incentivise to put hotspots to cover gaps of coverage (along interstate highways, etc). cause those types of lone wolves get effected by this
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/07/2022 12:09 PM
There was some talk a while back of altering the reward structure a bit to incentivize for rural install/expansion.
12:09
Haven't had time to play with the idea.
Avatar
i find the 2 i have in low pop areas actually do pretty good. they seem slow but get paid when PoC happens
Avatar
Avatar
groot
That's too bad, I would honestly love to hear someone with one of those 'great' setups how many witnesses he is actually going to lose. I doubt that there are many. And as Mogual correctly surmised (and part of the reason of this HIP) sensors are never going to scream back at 4W.
I did some tests with glamos for a mountain location at 1000m, and it was about 50% over 100km
12:10
i can share the data if you are interested
Avatar
Avatar
Moguai
i find the 2 i have in low pop areas actually do pretty good. they seem slow but get paid when PoC happens
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/07/2022 12:11 PM
Yeah, you likely benefit from not having a full witness list all the time since the sweet spot for rewards as a witness is 4 witnesses. 🙂 (edited)
Avatar
Carl-bot BOT 04/07/2022 12:11 PM
Witnesses are informational and based on a rolling 5-day period of successful Proof-of-Coverage witness receipts. The list also resets if a Hotspot updates location, changes antenna, or elevation. Read more here: https://docs.helium.com/troubleshooting/understanding-witnesses
Witnesses on the Helium network are Hotspots that have seen (or witnessed) a Proof-of-Coverage packet from a Hotspot. This single-stage Proof-of-Coverage challenge is also known as a "Beacon".
Avatar
Avatar
belzebut
i can share the data if you are interested
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/07/2022 12:12 PM
Data is always good 🙂
Avatar
@ElonTusk | 5Gchipped yup. if i keep it below 6-7 im happy
💯 1
Avatar
Avatar
groot
Counter question: why should they be rewarded for 300km of coverage when they only provide 100km?
Pirate_ProfTK 04/07/2022 12:13 PM
cause that one hotspot in middle of 200km stretch of road with nothing will provide much value data for asset tracking, even if withing a radius of 100km.
12:13
this is my view as an enterprise IoT solutions provider
👍 1
Avatar
so add 1 at 100km
12:14
are your senors gunna transmit 200km?
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Data is always good 🙂
How can i share it?
12:14
I have the list from glamos app with hotspot address, rssi, snr and distance
Avatar
Avatar
Pirate_ProfTK
cause that one hotspot in middle of 200km stretch of road with nothing will provide much value data for asset tracking, even if withing a radius of 100km.
So because you are providing (in your opinion) 100km of very valuable coverage you should be rewarded for 200km? No, if you are not rewarded enough within 100km there is something wrong with the incentive structure but in my opinion you shouldn't be rewarded for the coverage you are not providing. (edited)
Avatar
Avatar
belzebut
i can share the data if you are interested
Sure 🙂
Avatar
Avatar
Moguai
are your senors gunna transmit 200km?
Pirate_ProfTK 04/07/2022 12:20 PM
no, but to see the sensor at the remote location the gateway needs to be there in the middle of nowhere. but the poc limit would reduce the incentive to be there. now the burden would fall on solutions providers who seek such coverage
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
There was some talk a while back of altering the reward structure a bit to incentivize for rural install/expansion.
Pirate_ProfTK 04/07/2022 12:20 PM
this would be amazing
👍 1
Avatar
seems like it wouldnt be very hard to provide an incentive for being the first in an unclaimed hex, or a certian distance from other 1.0 hexes, maybe even a penalty for adding a new hotspot in an already oversubscribed hex
Avatar
Avatar
groot
So because you are providing (in your opinion) 100km of very valuable coverage you should be rewarded for 200km? No, if you are not rewarded enough within 100km there is something wrong with the incentive structure but in my opinion you shouldn't be rewarded for the coverage you are not providing. (edited)
Pirate_ProfTK 04/07/2022 12:30 PM
All coverages are not made equal. I think it is wrong to think they are. 1 hotspot in the middle of PA provide more value to the network than 100 on nyc. now I know rewards scale penalize them. but this HIP does indeed hurt that lone hotspot's chance of earning.
Avatar
Avatar
BiggieJohn
seems like it wouldnt be very hard to provide an incentive for being the first in an unclaimed hex, or a certian distance from other 1.0 hexes, maybe even a penalty for adding a new hotspot in an already oversubscribed hex
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/07/2022 12:31 PM
That latter bit is just hip15+17
Avatar
Pirate_ProfTK 04/07/2022 12:32 PM
this HIP encourages boundary expansion... instead of random emergence of hotspots
Avatar
So what you are actually advocating for stricter and more penalizing reward scales. Offering you rewards for coverage you don't provide is nonsense.
12:35
Let me put it this way: say you have this stretch of highway that you want to cover and there are no other hotspots. If the distance between coverage areas is > 200km you will need more than 1 hotspot to cover this stretch of highway and thus placing two of them will have one hit the one coverage area and one the other coverage area while they both hit eachother. If the distance between coverage areas is less than 200km you will hit both coverage areas with 1 hotspot. In both cases you will get rewarded for your coverage.
Avatar
Avatar
groot
So what you are actually advocating for stricter and more penalizing reward scales. Offering you rewards for coverage you don't provide is nonsense.
Pirate_ProfTK 04/07/2022 12:35 PM
no, I just want to see model that can encourage someone to put a hotspot at a rural place
Avatar
Now I agree that if you accept blind spots and place one hotspot in the middle of the > 200km uncovered highway you are going to have a lone wolf setup that will only earn from data credits, but that will be equally true with a distance limit of 200km or 300km, albeit at different distances. (edited)
12:38
I don't disagree with your wish for better incentives for lone wolfs, but I also have two caveats: at any distance limit this issue will exist and secondly making lone wolf installations too lucrative will most likely create a lot of farms that aren't actually in the middle of nowhere at all.
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
This myth of "a good setup" needs to go away. A hotspot that is witnessing over 100km is not a "good setup". It's useless to the network. The point of the network is data, not POC. (edited)
Yes i know and my hotspot transfers data to the city next to mine which is 75km away and how i know that you will ask cuz in my small town there is no one who uses IOT devices
👍 1
12:39
so really dont say it cant transfer data it can and it does
Avatar
Avatar
groot
Now I agree that if you accept blind spots and place one hotspot in the middle of the > 200km uncovered highway you are going to have a lone wolf setup that will only earn from data credits, but that will be equally true with a distance limit of 200km or 300km, albeit at different distances. (edited)
Pirate_ProfTK 04/07/2022 12:40 PM
may be a algorithm that test number of witnesses a hotspot gets and determine enact the limitations ie- so if a low earning hotspot see far witness it get counted (edited)
12:44
If the 24hour average earnings are at the bottom 25% of network average, if they see a far witness, it counts given it doesn't more than 10 witnesses per day or something (edited)
Avatar
Looking at the data i just provided and the discussion we had earlier about good setups that don't exist, i found some very long distance witnesses with very good signal, better than your average city hotspot has a few km distance. (13) 112cwpyR5a5WBfgaQNvpnXJGCXZBAnNfc3ABqDMLbZAESyWBowSy -101 3 Virtual Brunette Goldfish 74.84km (16) 11s5n56Ws2K6TqDuQA92HZwua7g1QbqhMW1SAoYjdeoV3Qos7zT -102 4.8 Tangy Flint Lizard 76.91km (18) 112jaSQ9sH6iDgj5zv7vsrhhLCZJqHGbhdkAcu6nYvvtMzfTuJid -102 1.2 Obedient Jade Ferret 121.31km (31) 11japtS72FpA152h2miR4wiiHzxu7ZQqz87M8P6TW93xKsptZTr -106 0.5 Spicy Charcoal Fly 113.96km (38) 112eqqXvde1ktzcVP1nSAEygLp36UdriXzAfPVsbYYMZXaKCc5eG -109 1.8 Old Onyx Millipede 107.25km (57) 115s7KLPKuacgdiqHp7UxVUxMa7dURsagssxKzFo9eT7fxNN9Bc -112 1.8 Atomic Umber Parrot 102.58km Just some numbers from a single beacon. Done with a 6dbi omni, not some 25dbi yagi. I rest my case.
🤨 1
Avatar
6dbi omni on the hotspot or the mapper ?
Avatar
A hotspot placed here would provide better coverage than MANY other hotspots at the same time. At a glance 50% of witnesses are over 100km. After HIP 58 a setup like this would probably earn like a regular city hotspot.
Avatar
Avatar
BiggieJohn
6dbi omni on the hotspot or the mapper ?
yes
12:50
on the mapper
Avatar
thats a huge antenna for a mapper, far larger then any sensor would have
💯 1
Avatar
agree, but just compare the signal strength and rssi with an average hotspot running a 6dbi to figure out the difference in coverage it provides
12:55
i was planning to install an offgrid here to provide coverage, but there's no point now, i'm not going to work my ass off for peanut rewards, i'll just deploy it in an oversaturated city area to earn 0.2
Avatar
Avatar
belzebut
i was planning to install an offgrid here to provide coverage, but there's no point now, i'm not going to work my ass off for peanut rewards, i'll just deploy it in an oversaturated city area to earn 0.2
You went to a mountain. Sensors are 98% of the time in lower locations. Try that test again in a lower altitude and you'll see you will not reach any hotspot >100km
👍 1
Avatar
Avatar
ricopt5
You went to a mountain. Sensors are 98% of the time in lower locations. Try that test again in a lower altitude and you'll see you will not reach any hotspot >100km
You did a test run on SF7 a while back right?
Avatar
Avatar
groot
You did a test run on SF7 a while back right?
Sf12
Avatar
What was your 95th percentile? (edited)
Avatar
Avatar
ricopt5
You went to a mountain. Sensors are 98% of the time in lower locations. Try that test again in a lower altitude and you'll see you will not reach any hotspot >100km
What does it matter where the sensor is? All that matters if i can hear it or not. It's just how rf works, from a mountain you will hear everyone
Avatar
SF12, so that's approx 8dB more than SF9 right?
Avatar
Avatar
groot
What was your 95th percentile? (edited)
I did not calculate it. But I think they were mostly under 40km. I only had a couple above 70km
👍 1
Avatar
Avatar
belzebut
What does it matter where the sensor is? All that matters if i can hear it or not. It's just how rf works, from a mountain you will hear everyone
Not sure I agree with you on this one, we were talking about coverage for sensors, not coverage for single channel hotspots with huge antenna's.
Avatar
Avatar
groot
SF12, so that's approx 8dB more than SF9 right?
Not sure honestly. But I don't think it can be compared like that
Avatar
Avatar
ricopt5
Not sure honestly. But I don't think it can be compared like that
https://lora-developers.semtech.com/uploads/documents/files/Understanding_LoRa_Adaptive_Data_Rate_Downloadable.pdf Table 1, that's how I read it but I could be very wrong of course. I'm not an RF expert.
Avatar
Avatar
groot
https://lora-developers.semtech.com/uploads/documents/files/Understanding_LoRa_Adaptive_Data_Rate_Downloadable.pdf Table 1, that's how I read it but I could be very wrong of course. I'm not an RF expert.
Oh ok! Learned something today!
Avatar
That's also why EU868 SF12 @ 16dBm is pretty potent even though the tx power is so much lower, at least from what I understand.
Avatar
Any fix on not seeing the HIP 58 vote in Helium app? Mine only shows 54 and 55 messages
Avatar
heliumvote.com doesn't list them?
Avatar
It does but gives a link back to the helium app to cast vote
Avatar
Avatar
bentogrizz
It does but gives a link back to the helium app to cast vote
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/07/2022 1:21 PM
Yes, you need to cast the vote via the helium app 🙂
13:22
I assume you're on your phone right now?
13:23
If so, just tap the option you want (yes or no), and there will be a link that opens the app. The info will all already be populated, you just hit send. 🙂
Avatar
Avatar
groot
What was your 95th percentile? (edited)
100th: 74km 99th: 54km 98th: 40km 95th: 24km 90th: 17km
Avatar
It's a limited study but it gives an indication that Nova isn't wrong on their guestimate 🙂
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/07/2022 1:27 PM
We have a ton of mapping data, right? Can't we just pull from that to get a clear picture of the real world data transmission distances?
Avatar
Avatar
groot
Not sure I agree with you on this one, we were talking about coverage for sensors, not coverage for single channel hotspots with huge antenna's.
This whole sensor talk is misleading and only used selectively as an excuse here. Right now we use PoC to reward coverage and test the network hotspot to hotspot. Many times the signal from PoC transactions is too weak for actual sensor use. I have signals at 100km with -100db and positive SNR. Now look at the average hotspot and try to find the longest distance with that signal strength. It won’t be more than a few km. If i can’t hear a sensor at 100km with that signal, neither will the average hotspot 3km away. So if you really care that much about sensors you should be equally penalizing these transactions too, where a hotspot can beacon over 3km but don’t provide any real sensor coverage further than that.
👎 1
Avatar
@ElonTusk | 5Gchipped - appreciate the help here but the app is not allowing me to vote. I have voted before and experienced what you explained but just not working this time. FYI - i have signed out of the app and signed back in. I am using v4.0.1
Avatar
Avatar
belzebut
This whole sensor talk is misleading and only used selectively as an excuse here. Right now we use PoC to reward coverage and test the network hotspot to hotspot. Many times the signal from PoC transactions is too weak for actual sensor use. I have signals at 100km with -100db and positive SNR. Now look at the average hotspot and try to find the longest distance with that signal strength. It won’t be more than a few km. If i can’t hear a sensor at 100km with that signal, neither will the average hotspot 3km away. So if you really care that much about sensors you should be equally penalizing these transactions too, where a hotspot can beacon over 3km but don’t provide any real sensor coverage further than that.
Not the intention of PoC at all, but it is true that non-representative data is used.
Avatar
Avatar
groot
Not the intention of PoC at all, but it is true that non-representative data is used.
What? It's literally in the name, it's called proof of coverage.
Avatar
Avatar
bentogrizz
@ElonTusk | 5Gchipped - appreciate the help here but the app is not allowing me to vote. I have voted before and experienced what you explained but just not working this time. FYI - i have signed out of the app and signed back in. I am using v4.0.1
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/07/2022 1:32 PM
Hmm... interesting. I'm still on an older version. Might be an issues with the newer app. #hotspot-app-development You can also just use the QR code on the website (computer) or even do a burn transaction to the wallet address for the side you wish to vote for. 🙂
💪 1
Avatar
Avatar
belzebut
What? It's literally in the name, it's called proof of coverage.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/07/2022 1:33 PM
Yes, coverage of iot devices
Avatar
Avatar
belzebut
What? It's literally in the name, it's called proof of coverage.
I meant that Proof of Coverage was not intended to verify hotspot to hotspot but instead trying to verify hotspot to sensor coverage.
👆 1
Avatar
Avatar
groot
I meant that Proof of Coverage was not intended to verify hotspot to hotspot but instead trying to verify hotspot to sensor coverage.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/07/2022 1:35 PM
jinx 😉 lol
Avatar
In the mapper data you sent there are quite a few of these wonderful specimens. They should be denylisted not used as evidence.
😄 1
👍 1
Avatar
@ElonTusk | 5Gchipped I figured it out, on Apple iOS you have to close the helium app, go back to helium vote, click the link and it opens the voting at the beginning of the helium app load.
🎉 1
Avatar
I'm unconvinced by either side, so I'll abstain. I think this proposal needs more support with actual numbers before it goes to a vote.
Avatar
Avatar
rando
I'm unconvinced by either side, so I'll abstain. I think this proposal needs more support with actual numbers before it goes to a vote.
Numbers are in the HIP, unless you've seen those and deem them incomplete (also a completely valid opinion of course).
Avatar
Avatar
rando
I'm unconvinced by either side, so I'll abstain. I think this proposal needs more support with actual numbers before it goes to a vote.
Helium Improvement Proposals. Contribute to helium/HIP development by creating an account on GitHub.
Avatar
Avatar
bentogrizz
@ElonTusk | 5Gchipped I figured it out, on Apple iOS you have to close the helium app, go back to helium vote, click the link and it opens the voting at the beginning of the helium app load.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/07/2022 1:40 PM
Nice! 🙂
Avatar
Avatar
rando
I'm unconvinced by either side, so I'll abstain. I think this proposal needs more support with actual numbers before it goes to a vote.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/07/2022 1:41 PM
What numbers are you looking for? (that aren't provided at this point) (edited)
Avatar
Avatar
groot
I meant that Proof of Coverage was not intended to verify hotspot to hotspot but instead trying to verify hotspot to sensor coverage.
Come on man, i laid it to you on a plate and you don't want to see it. the hotspot is acting like a sensor when it's beaconing. Everyone gave the argument that hotspots have higher power than the sensor. Yet you still use that same power when you beacon in a dense city to reach another hotspot 10 streets away and 5 buildings between you. But if a tiny sensor would do that you would not hear it. But still you reward it.
Avatar
Avatar
belzebut
Come on man, i laid it to you on a plate and you don't want to see it. the hotspot is acting like a sensor when it's beaconing. Everyone gave the argument that hotspots have higher power than the sensor. Yet you still use that same power when you beacon in a dense city to reach another hotspot 10 streets away and 5 buildings between you. But if a tiny sensor would do that you would not hear it. But still you reward it.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/07/2022 1:41 PM
Hotspots are not sensors...
Avatar
Avatar
belzebut
Come on man, i laid it to you on a plate and you don't want to see it. the hotspot is acting like a sensor when it's beaconing. Everyone gave the argument that hotspots have higher power than the sensor. Yet you still use that same power when you beacon in a dense city to reach another hotspot 10 streets away and 5 buildings between you. But if a tiny sensor would do that you would not hear it. But still you reward it.
So what you are saying is that we actually need to limit the distance even further because of this difference? You've completely lost me, what point are you arguing again?
Avatar
Avatar
groot
So what you are saying is that we actually need to limit the distance even further because of this difference? You've completely lost me, what point are you arguing again?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/07/2022 1:43 PM
Yeah, I'm a bit confused on that one too. 😄
Avatar
Vote NO!
👎 2
👆 1
Avatar
Distance is irrelevant to sensors. Signal IS relevant. 120km with clear line of sight could be the same signal strength 3km away but with obstacles. You won't reward the first scenario but you will reward the second one even though they provide the same coverage in this particular scenario.
13:47
No offense but I had the impression i am taking with someone that has some RF knowledge, it seems i'm just talking to walls here
facepalm 1
Avatar
I didn't read the GitHub before
Avatar
Avatar
ANIBAL.90
Vote NO!
BUT WHY. explain please
👍 1
Avatar
Those limits are huge bullsh*t. There's no need for that!
Avatar
It hurts that so many didn't read the HIP yet still have an opinion.
💩 2
Avatar
It seems like a more conservative proposal would be to limit the amount of witnessing at those distances, rather than block it entirely. This seems like at least a better starting point, and is consistent with the last graph on the GitHub.
Avatar
Maybe we could increase the limit to let's say 200km
👍 1
13:54
So the tower deployments don't get affected so hard
13:54
Avatar
Avatar
belzebut
Distance is irrelevant to sensors. Signal IS relevant. 120km with clear line of sight could be the same signal strength 3km away but with obstacles. You won't reward the first scenario but you will reward the second one even though they provide the same coverage in this particular scenario.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/07/2022 1:54 PM
Sensor data transfers are not limited by this HIP
Avatar
I don't get this, why would their earnings increase?
Avatar
Avatar
13
Click to see attachment 🖼️
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/07/2022 1:56 PM
I need to go re-read that. That bullet point seems odd.
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
I need to go re-read that. That bullet point seems odd.
It's at deployment impact
13:57
I think that the hip can have a positive impact, but let's not leave out the ones who invested hundreds in tower setups
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Sensor data transfers are not limited by this HIP
Bro you just seem clueless about everything, and it doesn't seem like you add anything to any discussion, so what is your purpose here?
🤦‍♂️ 1
Avatar
And increase the limit to let's say 200-250
13:58
👍 1
13:58
After looking at this graph, 200km is just right
🤨 1
Avatar
Avatar
belzebut
Bro you just seem clueless about everything, and it doesn't seem like you add anything to any discussion, so what is your purpose here?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/07/2022 1:58 PM
Not your bro
Avatar
That graph has no 200 km info!
👆 1
Avatar
Avatar
13
Click to see attachment 🖼️
How do you figure that? The graph represents number of witnesses and number of witnesses above 100k, there is nothing about 200k.
👆 1
Avatar
Avatar
belzebut
Bro you just seem clueless about everything, and it doesn't seem like you add anything to any discussion, so what is your purpose here?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/07/2022 1:59 PM
Maybe you should re-read the HIP. This is about POC distance, not data.
Avatar
Avatar
groot
How do you figure that? The graph represents number of witnesses and number of witnesses above 100k, there is nothing about 200k.
Nevermind I read it wrong
13:59
I thought it was indicating the distance over 100km, my bad
👍 2
Avatar
Not a problem, that seems to happen quite often as I've heard statements about what distance it should've been based on this chart all day. (edited)
Avatar
I think a chart indicating that info would be useful though
Avatar
Avatar
belzebut
Bro you just seem clueless about everything, and it doesn't seem like you add anything to any discussion, so what is your purpose here?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/07/2022 2:01 PM
Also, keep your insults to yourself #rules
Avatar
Avatar
13
I think a chart indicating that info would be useful though
I completely agree, but the ETL went AWOL
😢 2
Avatar
✌️
Avatar
I can see some hotspots in the USA providing coverage over the desert
14:02
If you look on the mappers explorer
14:03
You'll see some one who apparently flew a plane of the middle of the USA
👍 1
14:03
With a mapper on him
14:03
Madlad
Avatar
Would've been a dick move as the mapper explicitly indicates ground-level coverage 😭
Avatar
Avatar
groot
Would've been a dick move as the mapper explicitly indicates ground-level coverage 😭
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/07/2022 2:04 PM
I thought the data was filtered for that sort of thing?
14:04
(I might be thinking of a different flight)
Avatar
Still an impressive feat to be honest
💯 2
14:04
I'd like to try and track my package in planes with helium if that would even be possible
14:05
It already can do that with trucks, next step is tracking the voyager 2 😂 (edited)
🤘 1
Avatar
Avatar
13
I'd like to try and track my package in planes with helium if that would even be possible
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/07/2022 2:05 PM
USPS: "I'm sorry sir, we don't know where your package is" Helium user: "BS... it's in the back left corner of your office..." 😆
Avatar
shippers really hate people mailing trackers . . . proves how fraudlent most claims are of "lost" pacakges
👍 1
Avatar
Is hip 58 good bad
passed 1
💩 1
Avatar
Avatar
MasterAwo
Is hip 58 good bad
depends, are you in the .01% that operates a hotspot on a mountain top and regularly sees witnesses 250km+ away ?
Avatar
Avatar
MasterAwo
Is hip 58 good bad
DYOR
🤣 1
Avatar
Ugh. Vote no. This hip hurts good setups.
👍 3
👎 1
Avatar
you can see the line, guy 100% flew his own plane
Avatar
Don’t need to be on a mountain to witness over 100km
Avatar
Avatar
BiggieJohn
shippers really hate people mailing trackers . . . proves how fraudlent most claims are of "lost" pacakges
yep,im pretty sure plenty of employees get free stuff and then company covers it
Avatar
Avatar
Marvelous
Ugh. Vote no. This hip hurts good setups.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/07/2022 2:13 PM
The "good setup" myth.
Avatar
Avatar
Marvelous
Ugh. Vote no. This hip hurts good setups.
If it hurt good setups, my question is does it affects positive the "bad setups" ?(newbie here) (edited)
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/07/2022 2:13 PM
Good setup for POC is not the point of the network.
Avatar
Avatar
GIV3R
If it hurt good setups, my question is does it affects positive the "bad setups" ?(newbie here) (edited)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/07/2022 2:14 PM
"Bad setups" would be unaffected because they would not reach over 100km in the first place. 🙂
14:15
And the type of cheater setups that "witness" crazy distances would be clipped. (a nice side benefit) (edited)
Avatar
Avatar
BiggieJohn
depends, are you in the .01% that operates a hotspot on a mountain top and regularly sees witnesses 250km+ away ?
No
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
And the type of cheater setups that "witness" crazy distances would be clipped. (a nice side benefit) (edited)
Sorry guys but I'll vote yes. This seems fair.
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Good setup for POC is not the point of the network.
Building the network in rural areas or off grid in areas with little to no coverage does help the network. Your punishing these setup. Less incentive to expand the network in areas that need it.
💯 2
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
And the type of cheater setups that "witness" crazy distances would be clipped. (a nice side benefit) (edited)
And more easily detected since it will have a lot of invalid witnesses
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
And the type of cheater setups that "witness" crazy distances would be clipped. (a nice side benefit) (edited)
Thanks for your answer mate!
👍 1
Avatar
Avatar
GIV3R
Sorry guys but I'll vote yes. This seems fair.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/07/2022 2:17 PM
Well I will always advise reading the HIP also before voting. Don't just rely on us loud folks. 😉
💯 1
Avatar
Avatar
Marvelous
Building the network in rural areas or off grid in areas with little to no coverage does help the network. Your punishing these setup. Less incentive to expand the network in areas that need it.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/07/2022 2:18 PM
Not at all. 100km radius is still a huge area fpr POC. Are we building for POC or for Data?
Avatar
I don’t see why devs don’t fix the actual security holes that allow for cheating instead of trying to indirectly target gamers and restrict coverage and expansion of the network
Avatar
There are areas with few hotspots that can be seen by the high altitude hotspots. TYhey are gonna loose some conections/areas
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Not at all. 100km radius is still a huge area fpr POC. Are we building for POC or for Data?
+120.83 dBm 04/07/2022 2:18 PM
Why are these not the same thing?
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/07/2022 2:18 PM
Hmm yeah, possibly. 🙂
Avatar
Avatar
hforn
I don’t see why devs don’t fix the actual security holes that allow for cheating instead of trying to indirectly target gamers and restrict coverage and expansion of the network
why devs don’t fix the actual security holes
It's a hard problem to solve
Avatar
I’m seriously baffled people think this is a good fix
Avatar
Avatar
hforn
I don’t see why devs don’t fix the actual security holes that allow for cheating instead of trying to indirectly target gamers and restrict coverage and expansion of the network
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/07/2022 2:19 PM
Denylist, HIPs 40, 42, 44 and this. If you have other ideas, you should right a HIP. 🙂
Avatar
gardenweazel 04/07/2022 2:19 PM
How does one vote?
Avatar
gardenweazel 04/07/2022 2:19 PM
Thanks
👍 1
Avatar
Avatar
Marvelous
Building the network in rural areas or off grid in areas with little to no coverage does help the network. Your punishing these setup. Less incentive to expand the network in areas that need it.
Spot on… legit the worst HIP I have seen so far
Avatar
This hip is not fair to people who have their setup near bodies of water. I frequently have witnesses over 100km (at least I used to, before the number of witnesses has dropped so drastically).
Avatar
It would require restructuring PoC system but could easily be done with a time delay before witnesses are counted (edited)
Avatar
Avatar
+120.83 dBm
Why are these not the same thing?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/07/2022 2:20 PM
Because sensors' transmit power is nowhere near a hotspot's.
Avatar
Legit punishing the best and most to thought threw setups with this
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Because sensors' transmit power is nowhere near a hotspot's.
+120.83 dBm 04/07/2022 2:20 PM
Why?
Avatar
Avatar
+120.83 dBm
Why?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/07/2022 2:21 PM
Because they don't?
Avatar
Avatar
hforn
It would require restructuring PoC system but could easily be done with a time delay before witnesses are counted (edited)
Write up a HIP. This is a community network, not a centralized network. It's the community job to improve it
💯 1
Avatar
Original message was deleted or could not be loaded.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/07/2022 2:21 PM
"great setup"
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Because they don't?
+120.83 dBm 04/07/2022 2:22 PM
It's supposed to be proof of coverage. Why do the hotspots not reduce their transmit power when sending beacons so as to emulate the signal a sensor would send?
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
"great setup"
Direction antenna on top of a mountain does over 100km easy
Avatar
Avatar
+120.83 dBm
It's supposed to be proof of coverage. Why do the hotspots not reduce their transmit power when sending beacons so as to emulate the signal a sensor would send?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/07/2022 2:22 PM
It's Proof of Coverage for iot devices
Avatar
Avatar
+120.83 dBm
It's supposed to be proof of coverage. Why do the hotspots not reduce their transmit power when sending beacons so as to emulate the signal a sensor would send?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/07/2022 2:23 PM
The idea of the HIP is to split the difference to still give reasonable rewards at twice the distance of the normal range of a sensor.
Avatar
Avatar
Big Owl
Direction antenna on top of a mountain does over 100km easy
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/07/2022 2:24 PM
Highway speed limits are not set based on land speed records. 😉
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
The idea of the HIP is to split the difference to still give reasonable rewards at twice the distance of the normal range of a sensor.
+120.83 dBm 04/07/2022 2:25 PM
There is no "normal range of a sensor". A better setup will be capable of receiving a signal from it at a greater distance than a bad setup.
Avatar
Original message was deleted or could not be loaded.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/07/2022 2:25 PM
The core problem is the Helium/Nova team should have set this limit from the beginning.
Avatar
Avatar
+120.83 dBm
There is no "normal range of a sensor". A better setup will be capable of receiving a signal from it at a greater distance than a bad setup.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/07/2022 2:26 PM
mapping real world says otherwise.
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
mapping real world says otherwise.
Not when people are near a body of water
Avatar
+120.83 dBm 04/07/2022 2:26 PM
So I've heard plenty of reasons to disapprove of this HIP. What are some reasons to want it?
Avatar
Avatar
+120.83 dBm
There is no "normal range of a sensor". A better setup will be capable of receiving a signal from it at a greater distance than a bad setup.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/07/2022 2:26 PM
You can't hear someone is a noisy nightclub when the other person is whispering.
Avatar
Avatar
dschroed
Not when people are near a body of water
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/07/2022 2:27 PM
Yes, there will always be outliers
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
The core problem is the Helium/Nova team should have set this limit from the beginning.
There’s no telling what use case helium could serve in the future and if you limit it to the range of tiny sensors you are restricting the vast utility of what helium could be used for with a far more complete network
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
The core problem is the Helium/Nova team should have set this limit from the beginning.
Then why push outside setups? Every helium store sells 5.8 and 8dbi antennas. If the limit should have been 100km from the start, then there would be no need for these types of antennas.
Avatar
Avatar
+120.83 dBm
So I've heard plenty of reasons to disapprove of this HIP. What are some reasons to want it?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/07/2022 2:28 PM
Incetivize building the network to support the end goal of data transmission. And the nice side effect of clipping one method of cheating.
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Yes, there will always be outliers
Outliers like most of San Diego, who is already screwed by Res 4
👎 1
Avatar
Avatar
hforn
There’s no telling what use case helium could serve in the future and if you limit it to the range of tiny sensors you are restricting the vast utility of what helium could be used for with a far more complete network
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/07/2022 2:28 PM
It's not set in stone. If you read the HIP you would know that. The chain var is very easy to change. in fact, it's already in the code, just inactive.
Avatar
My coastal locations, and the other 30 plus rooftop sniped installs I have with 5.8 and 8 that regularly witness over 100km, and every single off gridder who’s built coverage in dead zones all being hurt with this hip. (edited)
Avatar
Avatar
Marvelous
Then why push outside setups? Every helium store sells 5.8 and 8dbi antennas. If the limit should have been 100km from the start, then there would be no need for these types of antennas.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/07/2022 2:29 PM
The "high dbi = better rewards" myth has been pushed by antenna sellers.
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Incetivize building the network to support the end goal of data transmission. And the nice side effect of clipping one method of cheating.
+120.83 dBm 04/07/2022 2:30 PM
What method of cheating relies on super long distance witnessing?
Avatar
Avatar
Marvelous
Then why push outside setups? Every helium store sells 5.8 and 8dbi antennas. If the limit should have been 100km from the start, then there would be no need for these types of antennas.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/07/2022 2:30 PM
And the system pre-POCv11 did assume stock antennas.
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
The "high dbi = better rewards" myth has been pushed by antenna sellers.
As someone who runs many locations with some high dBi and others low, I would not use the word “myth” mister community mentor
Avatar
roaring20s.eth 04/07/2022 2:31 PM
Is this a good solution to this problem?
Avatar
Avatar
Marvelous
My coastal locations, and the other 30 plus rooftop sniped installs I have with 5.8 and 8 that regularly witness over 100km, and every single off gridder who’s built coverage in dead zones all being hurt with this hip. (edited)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/07/2022 2:31 PM
Building for POC is not the point of the network.
Avatar
Original message was deleted or could not be loaded.
An omni does too
Avatar
Original message was deleted or could not be loaded.
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 04/07/2022 2:32 PM
Dude, i already muted you once for being off topic in this channel...
Avatar
Original message was deleted or could not be loaded.
I rephrase: an omni an a standard house roof of normal people, do.
Avatar
Avatar
+120.83 dBm
What method of cheating relies on super long distance witnessing?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/07/2022 2:32 PM
There is a current cheat method that somehow shows valid POC for +500km. Not sure the exact method
Avatar
Deleted User 04/07/2022 2:32 PM
What is hip 58
🤦‍♂️ 1
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
There is a current cheat method that somehow shows valid POC for +500km. Not sure the exact method
+120.83 dBm 04/07/2022 2:32 PM
So this HIP is aiming to solve a problem that is not fully understood?
Avatar
Original message was deleted or could not be loaded.
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 04/07/2022 2:33 PM
Next mute will be 7 days, stop posting off topic stuff here
Avatar
Avatar
Marvelous
As someone who runs many locations with some high dBi and others low, I would not use the word “myth” mister community mentor
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/07/2022 2:33 PM
I would. Range/rewards is about line of sight, not dbi
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
There is a current cheat method that somehow shows valid POC for +500km. Not sure the exact method
200km limit would be better.
Avatar
Avatar
+120.83 dBm
So this HIP is aiming to solve a problem that is not fully understood?
it's meant to stop cheaters cause the devs are either lazy/incapable of fixing exploits
Avatar
Avatar
belzebut
it's meant to stop cheaters cause the devs are either lazy/incapable of fixing exploits
+120.83 dBm 04/07/2022 2:34 PM
A blunt instrument.
Avatar
Avatar
Deleted User
What is hip 58
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/07/2022 2:34 PM
Helium Improvement Proposals. Contribute to helium/HIP development by creating an account on GitHub.
👍 1
Avatar
Avatar
belzebut
it's meant to stop cheaters cause the devs are either lazy/incapable of fixing exploits
Propose a way to fix it. It's a community network, so it's the community job to improve it.
Avatar
Monterosso1991 04/07/2022 2:35 PM
Distance limit is bullshit. I’m witnessing from island to island and over sea I’m making ton of distance. This would hardly suck with a limit!
Avatar
Avatar
ricopt5
Propose a way to fix it. It's a community network, so it's the community job to improve it.
What's my incentive to do so?
Avatar
Avatar
+120.83 dBm
So this HIP is aiming to solve a problem that is not fully understood?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/07/2022 2:35 PM
no... I don't know the exact method. i know one of the major symptoms (distance). Other know the details. 🙂 (edited)
Avatar
Avatar
ricopt5
Propose a way to fix it. It's a community network, so it's the community job to improve it.
Create a delay in the witness receipts and lock in witnesses before data is accessible for people to spoof
Avatar
Avatar
belzebut
What's my incentive to do so?
Cheaters get less (or no) rewards, which means you get better rewards
Avatar
Avatar
hforn
Create a delay in the witness receipts and lock in witnesses before data is accessible for people to spoof
Write up a HIP
Avatar
Avatar
Monterosso1991
Distance limit is bullshit. I’m witnessing from island to island and over sea I’m making ton of distance. This would hardly suck with a limit!
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/07/2022 2:36 PM
for hotspot to hotspot, sure. How about data?
Avatar
Avatar
ricopt5
Write up a HIP
Too busy building the actual network (edited)
🤘 3
Avatar
Avatar
belzebut
What's my incentive to do so?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/07/2022 2:36 PM
A better network that makes you money of course 🙂
Avatar
Avatar
hforn
Too busy building the actual network (edited)
Then don't complain about something you are not willing to fix
Avatar
Deleted User 04/07/2022 2:36 PM
ima jus go w the vast majority of votes
Avatar
This HIP was written in an office, has nothing to do with the real situations out there, geography, valleys, unseen locations etc
Avatar
Original message was deleted or could not be loaded.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/07/2022 2:37 PM
Knock off the insults #rules
Avatar
Avatar
hforn
Create a delay in the witness receipts and lock in witnesses before data is accessible for people to spoof
Also, there's already a 20 block delay before witnesses are submited to the blockchain
Avatar
Avatar
sebys81
This HIP was written in an office, has nothing to do with the real situations out there, geography, valleys, unseen locations etc
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/07/2022 2:38 PM
100% not correct
Avatar
Avatar
ricopt5
Also, there's already a 20 block delay before witnesses are submited to the blockchain
Why doesn’t that work then?
Avatar
Avatar
hforn
Why doesn’t that work then?
Because you don't understand how cheating is done
👆 1
Avatar
Anybody knows how you can test the distance with a real sensor?
Avatar
Avatar
ricopt5
Because you don't understand how cheating is done
Real constructive
Avatar
Avatar
hforn
Why doesn’t that work then?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/07/2022 2:38 PM
Because the data is already altered when it arrives at the Challenger
Avatar
Avatar
hforn
Real constructive
Well. I can explain the whole POC if you want, but that's off topic. Also, I'm sorry. That was a bad response, I admit. (edited)
Avatar
Avatar
belzebut
Anybody knows how you can test the distance with a real sensor?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/07/2022 2:39 PM
Mapper units/devices (edited)
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Mapper units/devices (edited)
Like a glamos with the tiniest antenna?
Avatar
Avatar
belzebut
Like a glamos with the tiniest antenna?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/07/2022 2:40 PM
I'd say with a antenna like a sensor would have, yeah. 🙂
Avatar
+120.83 dBm 04/07/2022 2:41 PM
Well I think I might be able to support this idea with a 200km limit, but a 100km limit is going to impact too many legitimate setups.
👍 1
Avatar
RIP all the people building the network in rural areas, off gridders, coastal setups. Imagine you’re in an area with little to no hotspots around, so you take the time to get your mount up high with a 6-8dbi and then comes along this hip to slash half your witnesses.
👏 1
Avatar
Avatar
+120.83 dBm
Well I think I might be able to support this idea with a 200km limit, but a 100km limit is going to impact too many legitimate setups.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/07/2022 2:41 PM
if the etl wasn't down we could look at hard data 🙂
Avatar
Avatar
Marvelous
RIP all the people building the network in rural areas, off gridders, coastal setups. Imagine you’re in an area with little to no hotspots around, so you take the time to get your mount up high with a 6-8dbi and then comes along this hip to slash half your witnesses.
Deleted User 04/07/2022 2:41 PM
welp should’ve known the risk
😂 1
Avatar
Avatar
+120.83 dBm
Well I think I might be able to support this idea with a 200km limit, but a 100km limit is going to impact too many legitimate setups.
200km sounds much better
Avatar
Avatar
+120.83 dBm
Well I think I might be able to support this idea with a 200km limit, but a 100km limit is going to impact too many legitimate setups.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/07/2022 2:42 PM
And the nice thing is this is very easy to edit if the data changes 🙂
14:42
it's just a chain var
Avatar
Finally gonna vote this time. Putting validator votes against this.
Avatar
will this do it? it says it's a 0 dbi antenna
Avatar
Avatar
Marvelous
RIP all the people building the network in rural areas, off gridders, coastal setups. Imagine you’re in an area with little to no hotspots around, so you take the time to get your mount up high with a 6-8dbi and then comes along this hip to slash half your witnesses.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/07/2022 2:43 PM
I have costal and rural setups... 😉
Avatar
Avatar
belzebut
will this do it? it says it's a 0 dbi antenna
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/07/2022 2:43 PM
I'm not super up on mappers, but I'm some folks in here are 🙂
Avatar
Avatar
Marvelous
Finally gonna vote this time. Putting validator votes against this.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/07/2022 2:43 PM
And here come the whales. sigh
14:44
THIS is why voting with HNT is BS
14:44
anyway...
Avatar
I wanna prove this think reaches over 100km, but i need to know the rules
👍 1
14:45
it is ok to transmit with the mapper from the mountain?
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/07/2022 2:46 PM
87.05% of voters have voted for this so far (voters, not hnt votes)
Avatar
What SF does a sensor use? What tx power?
Avatar
Avatar
belzebut
it is ok to transmit with the mapper from the mountain?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/07/2022 2:46 PM
I would map from where sensors would be to get a realistic range of results
Avatar
Avatar
belzebut
What SF does a sensor use? What tx power?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/07/2022 2:47 PM
no idea. I bet the folks in the #sensor-usage channel would know 🙂 (edited)
Avatar
What about us that live next to the water? Our signal carries well over 100km! This is BS!
👍 1
Avatar
Avatar
AntOrt
What about us that live next to the water? Our signal carries well over 100km! This is BS!
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/07/2022 2:54 PM
Your hotspot signal or sensor signals? (edited)
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Your hotspot signal or sensor signals? (edited)
Witnesses
Avatar
Avatar
AntOrt
Witnesses
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/07/2022 2:55 PM
Exactly 🙂
Avatar
Avatar
+120.83 dBm
Well I think I might be able to support this idea with a 200km limit, but a 100km limit is going to impact too many legitimate setups.
I agree... 200km limit would b perfect, but don't screw us at 100km!
Avatar
Avatar
AntOrt
I agree... 200km limit would b perfect, but don't screw us at 100km!
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/07/2022 2:56 PM
If you don't mind me asking, what is the hotspot that would be screwed? More data is always good 🙂 (edited)
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
If you don't mind me asking, what is the hotspot that would be screwed? More data is always good 🙂 (edited)
Here is an example "Fantastic Brick Barracuda" In my area there r many people that get witnesses over 100km
👍 1
Avatar
150km would be acceptable for me (edited)
14:58
I get 130km or so from a mountaintop miner of mine
Avatar
+120.83 dBm 04/07/2022 3:00 PM
I don't know the HS names, but there's a guy who deploys on Palomar Mountain who says he witnesses > 100km regularly.
👍 1
Avatar
I hit 100km to im on hill so what
15:01
Bs
15:01
You guys ruin this network one day with this kind of hips
Avatar
does beaconing that far actually correspond to actual coverage being provided?
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Your hotspot signal or sensor signals? (edited)
Although current sensors are generally much lower tx power there is nothing stopping them from being just as powerful as the hotspots that support them, even higher if adopted by a company that has fcc license for their devices
15:02
I just feel it’s very narrow minded to shape the network based on todays use case
Avatar
Avatar
+120.83 dBm
I don't know the HS names, but there's a guy who deploys on Palomar Mountain who says he witnesses > 100km regularly.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/07/2022 3:02 PM
Is that the one in Portugal on the highest mountain?
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Is that the one in Portugal on the highest mountain?
+120.83 dBm 04/07/2022 3:03 PM
This is in California.
Avatar
Avatar
mattyk84
does beaconing that far actually correspond to actual coverage being provided?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/07/2022 3:03 PM
Exactly the point 🙂
Avatar
Avatar
+120.83 dBm
This is in California.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/07/2022 3:03 PM
Ah ok 🙂
Avatar
Avatar
hforn
I just feel it’s very narrow minded to shape the network based on todays use case
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/07/2022 3:03 PM
The use case is very easily changed if the data supports it. It's just a chain var. 🙂
Avatar
Yes it may effect legitimate setups but less than 1% on the other hand it almost totally curbs the current form of gaming earning 40 hnt/day
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
The use case is very easily changed if the data supports it. It's just a chain var. 🙂
But if it’s not incentivized now the network will not be built to support it
Avatar
what I'm trying to understand here is; Are the setups geared toward capturing long-distance witnesses really doing any good for the network, or is it simply exploiting the PoC mining? Would hotspot owners still deploy in such a way once rewards shift toward data processing, or will they change their placements to data driven vs. distance driven?
👍 1
Avatar
My setup ll be effected as well but i favour this. I have 8 on mountains
Avatar
We need to do the footwork first to allow for such versatility in the future
Avatar
Avatar
chicagomed
Yes it may effect legitimate setups but less than 1% on the other hand it almost totally curbs the current form of gaming earning 40 hnt/day
+120.83 dBm 04/07/2022 3:05 PM
I have my doubts that gaming will be significantly impacted.
☝️ 1
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/07/2022 3:05 PM
Well to be fair, I know know what % of gaming is the type that shows up as crazy distance witnessing 🙂
Avatar
Avatar
+120.83 dBm
I have my doubts that gaming will be significantly impacted.
Have u seen the recent hotspots earning 2000 kms away
Avatar
Avatar
hforn
But if it’s not incentivized now the network will not be built to support it
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/07/2022 3:06 PM
Sensors are built to be low power. It's kind of the point.
Avatar
Avatar
chicagomed
Have u seen the recent hotspots earning 2000 kms away
+120.83 dBm 04/07/2022 3:06 PM
No, but I've seen plenty that don't rely on long distances.
Avatar
Avatar
mattyk84
what I'm trying to understand here is; Are the setups geared toward capturing long-distance witnesses really doing any good for the network, or is it simply exploiting the PoC mining? Would hotspot owners still deploy in such a way once rewards shift toward data processing, or will they change their placements to data driven vs. distance driven?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/07/2022 3:07 PM
They should be building towards the end goal: A network for iot data transmission, not PoC rewards.
Avatar
They are earning extremely low numbers . Or almost nil. On the other hand these hs with over 2000 km witnesses earning 40 hnt/day
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Sensors are built to be low power. It's kind of the point.
+120.83 dBm 04/07/2022 3:07 PM
Then beaconing should be low power too, if it aims to measure the coverage a sensor would experience.
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Sensors are built to be low power. It's kind of the point.
It could easily be used for flight data or trucking data if the network could cover larger remote areas, in which case power wouldn’t be an issue (edited)
Avatar
I am not saying it will eliminate gaming 100% but majority high reward it will
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
They should be building towards the end goal: A network for iot data transmission, not PoC rewards.
thats what I'm getting at, which this would favor the end goal, would it not? Regardless of how much it impacts gaming?
👍 1
Avatar
Avatar
+120.83 dBm
Then beaconing should be low power too, if it aims to measure the coverage a sensor would experience.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/07/2022 3:08 PM
I mean, isn't that basically what we are doing here? 🙂 (edited)
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
I mean, isn't that basically what we are doing here? 🙂 (edited)
+120.83 dBm 04/07/2022 3:08 PM
No, it's not.
Avatar
Avatar
+120.83 dBm
No, it's not.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/07/2022 3:09 PM
it's limiting the distance, same as lowering beacon power would.
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
it's limiting the distance, same as lowering beacon power would.
+120.83 dBm 04/07/2022 3:09 PM
Why not instead lower the beacon power?
Avatar
Avatar
hforn
It could easily be used for flight data or trucking data if the network could cover larger remote areas, in which case power wouldn’t be an issue (edited)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/07/2022 3:09 PM
100km radius is still a huge area. that's 200km diameter.
Avatar
Avatar
+120.83 dBm
Why not instead lower the beacon power?
That wouldn’t fix the current gaming issue
Avatar
Avatar
mattyk84
thats what I'm getting at, which this would favor the end goal, would it not? Regardless of how much it impacts gaming?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/07/2022 3:10 PM
Yes. Hurting the gamers is just icing on the cake far as I'm concerned. 🙂
Avatar
Avatar
+120.83 dBm
Why not instead lower the beacon power?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/07/2022 3:11 PM
because this is easier. The code is already in. Has been for quite some time. Nova would just set the chain var and turn it on. (edited)
Avatar
Monterosso1991 04/07/2022 3:11 PM
Helium Explorer is a Block Explorer and Analytics Platform for Helium, a decentralized wireless connectivity platform
Avatar
Avatar
hforn
That wouldn’t fix the current gaming issue
+120.83 dBm 04/07/2022 3:11 PM
It would fix this issue that seems to keep surfacing where people say that PoC doesn't really represent coverage because of the difference in power between a HS beacon and a sensor transmitting data.
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Yes. Hurting the gamers is just icing on the cake far as I'm concerned. 🙂
Seems to me that cheaters are gaming the system, where long-range setups exploit the heart of the project
Avatar
Avatar
+120.83 dBm
Why not instead lower the beacon power?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/07/2022 3:12 PM
And i also suspect because cheaters could boost the tx power to easily counteract it. With a distance limit, they can't get around that.
Avatar
Avatar
mattyk84
Seems to me that cheaters are gaming the system, where long-range setups exploit the heart of the project
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/07/2022 3:13 PM
It's one of the cheat methods, yep. This won't fix all cheating, but it's a nice kick to their junk. 😉 lol
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
And i also suspect because cheaters could boost the tx power to easily counteract it. With a distance limit, they can't get around that.
+120.83 dBm 04/07/2022 3:14 PM
They could change their own TX power, but not anyone else's.
Avatar
I have locations that will lose 50% of there witnesses with hip 58. I wish there was a better way to solve the gaming problem, it sucks that all the effort put into off grid and remote tower setups could now feel like nothing in terms of HNT rewards. I guess you dont care unless your personally affected by it and the few that do are far outnumbered. It seems this could encourages more saturation which equals less HNT rewards for everyone, which is what the network needs for sensors but it could nerf POC rewards alot faster than they already are. Its sad how HIP 58 and the community is pointing at these remote setups and putting them in the same classification as gamers. (edited)
👍 6
👎 1
Avatar
Avatar
+120.83 dBm
They could change their own TX power, but not anyone else's.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/07/2022 3:15 PM
Right, but if they're only beaconing to their own 'spots, it's all the same 😉
Avatar
Avatar
Toad
I have locations that will lose 50% of there witnesses with hip 58. I wish there was a better way to solve the gaming problem, it sucks that all the effort put into off grid and remote tower setups could now feel like nothing in terms of HNT rewards. I guess you dont care unless your personally affected by it and the few that do are far outnumbered. It seems this could encourages more saturation which equals less HNT rewards for everyone, which is what the network needs for sensors but it could nerf POC rewards alot faster than they already are. Its sad how HIP 58 and the community is pointing at these remote setups and putting them in the same classification as gamers. (edited)
me too man me too
Avatar
Avatar
Toad
I have locations that will lose 50% of there witnesses with hip 58. I wish there was a better way to solve the gaming problem, it sucks that all the effort put into off grid and remote tower setups could now feel like nothing in terms of HNT rewards. I guess you dont care unless your personally affected by it and the few that do are far outnumbered. It seems this could encourages more saturation which equals less HNT rewards for everyone, which is what the network needs for sensors but it could nerf POC rewards alot faster than they already are. Its sad how HIP 58 and the community is pointing at these remote setups and putting them in the same classification as gamers. (edited)
To what range does a remote setup provide coverage?
Avatar
Avatar
Toad
I have locations that will lose 50% of there witnesses with hip 58. I wish there was a better way to solve the gaming problem, it sucks that all the effort put into off grid and remote tower setups could now feel like nothing in terms of HNT rewards. I guess you dont care unless your personally affected by it and the few that do are far outnumbered. It seems this could encourages more saturation which equals less HNT rewards for everyone, which is what the network needs for sensors but it could nerf POC rewards alot faster than they already are. Its sad how HIP 58 and the community is pointing at these remote setups and putting them in the same classification as gamers. (edited)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/07/2022 3:16 PM
This isn't to solve gaming. This is guiding the network to build to the end goal.
Avatar
i climbed a f***ing wind turbine to place it
👍 3
🤩 2
🤣 2
❤️ 3
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
This isn't to solve gaming. This is guiding the network to build to the end goal.
+120.83 dBm 04/07/2022 3:16 PM
That's not what the HIP says.
👍 2
🤣 2
❤️ 2
Avatar
Avatar
Toad
I have locations that will lose 50% of there witnesses with hip 58. I wish there was a better way to solve the gaming problem, it sucks that all the effort put into off grid and remote tower setups could now feel like nothing in terms of HNT rewards. I guess you dont care unless your personally affected by it and the few that do are far outnumbered. It seems this could encourages more saturation which equals less HNT rewards for everyone, which is what the network needs for sensors but it could nerf POC rewards alot faster than they already are. Its sad how HIP 58 and the community is pointing at these remote setups and putting them in the same classification as gamers. (edited)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/07/2022 3:17 PM
And to be perfectly clear, I would be affected.
Avatar
Avatar
Toad
I have locations that will lose 50% of there witnesses with hip 58. I wish there was a better way to solve the gaming problem, it sucks that all the effort put into off grid and remote tower setups could now feel like nothing in terms of HNT rewards. I guess you dont care unless your personally affected by it and the few that do are far outnumbered. It seems this could encourages more saturation which equals less HNT rewards for everyone, which is what the network needs for sensors but it could nerf POC rewards alot faster than they already are. Its sad how HIP 58 and the community is pointing at these remote setups and putting them in the same classification as gamers. (edited)
Show us ?
Avatar
Avatar
+120.83 dBm
That's not what the HIP says.
fair
Avatar
Avatar
TheArchon
i climbed a f***ing wind turbine to place it
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/07/2022 3:17 PM
That's effing cool.
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
This isn't to solve gaming. This is guiding the network to build to the end goal.
Hip clearly states it’s to combat gaming
Avatar
Avatar
+120.83 dBm
That's not what the HIP says.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/07/2022 3:18 PM
Yes, I disagree with how it's written.
Avatar
If I understand correctly, the reward mechanism will switch primarily to data processing at some point... Will that not make remote setups entirely pointless at that point?
Avatar
Avatar
mattyk84
If I understand correctly, the reward mechanism will switch primarily to data processing at some point... Will that not make remote setups entirely pointless at that point?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/07/2022 3:18 PM
That day is 20 years away...
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
That's effing cool.
just look at this
❤️ 7
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/07/2022 3:19 PM
Avatar
Avatar
TheArchon
i climbed a f***ing wind turbine to place it
Gecko Perth 04/07/2022 3:19 PM
What range did you get? I had the same idea.
Avatar
179 km max
Avatar
Avatar
TheArchon
just look at this
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/07/2022 3:19 PM
sweet!
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
That day is 20 years away...
ha. ok well then nevermind on that
Avatar
how much data do you see with a hotspot that high up ?
Avatar
Avatar
mattyk84
ha. ok well then nevermind on that
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/07/2022 3:20 PM
to be fair, that's the date of the end of POC rewards. I'd say the 50/50 point is much closer.
Avatar
Avatar
BiggieJohn
how much data do you see with a hotspot that high up ?
well everyday there is data transfer like 20-50 times
🤘 1
Avatar
Avatar
TheArchon
179 km max
Gecko Perth 04/07/2022 3:20 PM
Nice! What height was the turbine and did you get permission to use the turbines power and internet?
Avatar
ClickBangHeadshot! 04/07/2022 3:20 PM
personal;ly i am trying top set up an antenna in coburg to beam across the water distances are 98km and 113-120 km distanc e limitations on hotspots providing valid coverage..... this would hurt me
Avatar
Avatar
Gecko Perth
Nice! What height was the turbine and did you get permission to use the turbines power and internet?
its mine 😁
😮 1
15:21
and its 400 meters above the sea level
👍 2
Avatar
Avatar
ClickBangHeadshot!
personal;ly i am trying top set up an antenna in coburg to beam across the water distances are 98km and 113-120 km distanc e limitations on hotspots providing valid coverage..... this would hurt me
well dont
Avatar
Avatar
TheArchon
and its 400 meters above the sea level
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/07/2022 3:22 PM
how much above ground local ground level?
Avatar
we are f***d
🤣 1
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
how much above ground local ground level?
340meters (edited)
🤘 4
Avatar
Avatar
TheArchon
well dont
ClickBangHeadshot! 04/07/2022 3:22 PM
bro the mast is already up miner is in hand, contract is signed waiting on the antenna
Avatar
Avatar
TheArchon
we are f***d
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/07/2022 3:23 PM
No, unless you only built to soak up POC rewards...
Avatar
well the HIP will be approved
Avatar
Avatar
TheArchon
340meters (edited)
Gecko Perth 04/07/2022 3:23 PM
Lift no working?
Avatar
Avatar
TheArchon
well everyday there is data transfer like 20-50 times
i would expect to see a lot more data then that if your PoC coverage really emulates your data coverage area
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
No, unless you only built to soak up POC rewards...
+120.83 dBm 04/07/2022 3:23 PM
What do you think the rewards are for?
🤣 1
Avatar
Avatar
TheArchon
well the HIP will be approved
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/07/2022 3:23 PM
Maybe. I've seen bigger flips.
Avatar
Avatar
BiggieJohn
i would expect to see a lot more data then that if your PoC coverage really emulates your data coverage area
well its a rural area as I said before
Avatar
Avatar
+120.83 dBm
What do you think the rewards are for?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/07/2022 3:24 PM
For building out the network in a manner that is compatible with the end goal.
💯 1
Avatar
and there isnt too much iot devices
😢 1
Avatar
Avatar
TheArchon
and there isnt too much iot devices
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/07/2022 3:25 PM
No farms in the area using sensors?
Avatar
No :/ i mean maybe there is but not the helium network
😢 1
15:26
and I will say it againe its a rural area and not in USA (edited)
👍 1
15:28
in Europe there is a big usage of IOT Devices but usually they are with their own gateways soo ye
Avatar
Pirate_ProfTK 04/07/2022 3:33 PM
@TheArchon how many witnesses do you see per day now? and what part of it is out of 100km?
Avatar
I’m sure this is discussed above- is 100km the right number? The farthest I’ve seen my hotspot witness was 89km, and a family member in another state has witnesses from 104km. Neither were gamified at all, of course. Just from my limited sample size it seems like 100km might be too aggressive, although impact to my POC rewards would be too small to care about either way.
Avatar
well now its low because of the blockchain problems but i cant really say a number per day because its not beaconing every day but on every beacon from 14 at least 5 are above 100km and before the blockchain problems i had 59 witnessed and 34 from them were above 100km
💯 1
15:43
this is the furthest away from the last beacon (edited)
15:43
Avatar
Avatar
cheezedawg
I’m sure this is discussed above- is 100km the right number? The farthest I’ve seen my hotspot witness was 89km, and a family member in another state has witnesses from 104km. Neither were gamified at all, of course. Just from my limited sample size it seems like 100km might be too aggressive, although impact to my POC rewards would be too small to care about either way.
100k is too aggressive. It should be 150km or 200
Avatar
if 200km is the "real" coverage area of a hotspot, then we would onyl need a few even in major cities
Avatar
Gecko Perth 04/07/2022 3:44 PM
How far will most IOT devices be able to be picked up?
Avatar
well im not saying 200km but at least 150
Avatar
Avatar
Gecko Perth
How far will most IOT devices be able to be picked up?
this depends on the line of sight
💯 1
Avatar
Avatar
Gecko Perth
How far will most IOT devices be able to be picked up?
100km outdoors, line of sight, 50km in surburban settings, <10km in dense urban areas
Avatar
Is it possible by initiating HIP 58 it could possibly improve the transmit scale of a semi-clustered area?
Avatar
Avatar
HackDaddy
Is it possible by initiating HIP 58 it could possibly improve the transmit scale of a semi-clustered area?
no
Avatar
Avatar
TheArchon
this depends on the line of sight
Gecko Perth 04/07/2022 3:46 PM
So a dog collar and the likes can still be picked up over 100km if it has line of sight?
Avatar
Avatar
TheArchon
no
Because if it doesn’t improve my current situation then I could care less tbh
Avatar
Avatar
TheArchon
well im not saying 200km but at least 150
If it’s true that witnesses this far away don’t meaningfully extend the network for data transfers then it makes sense.
Avatar
Avatar
Gecko Perth
So a dog collar and the likes can still be picked up over 100km if it has line of sight?
it really do depends a dog collar i think not you need to be close to it 😁 but to some agriculture sensor it could
👍 1
Avatar
Avatar
cheezedawg
If it’s true that witnesses this far away don’t meaningfully extend the network for data transfers then it makes sense.
Gecko Perth 04/07/2022 3:48 PM
That's what I was thinking.
Avatar
I highly doubt the community at large would vote for there rewards to possibly decrease due to incentivized saturation over time hence why there is a big politcal push to "get rid of gamers" in this HIP. (edited)
👎 1
Avatar
Avatar
cheezedawg
If it’s true that witnesses this far away don’t meaningfully extend the network for data transfers then it makes sense.
i agree with you but i am one of the peoples that prove it can transfer because the city next to my small town is 75 km away and i still send data to it
Avatar
Hows your hotspot called?
Avatar
For everyone who voted in favor you’ve been fooled
☝️ 1
💯 1
👎 2
Avatar
Deleted User 04/07/2022 3:51 PM
bonzour mes amis
Avatar
Avatar
5eLF
For everyone who voted in favor you’ve been fooled
Gecko Perth 04/07/2022 3:52 PM
Fantastic insightful input that. Lol
Avatar
Avatar
cheezedawg
If it’s true that witnesses this far away don’t meaningfully extend the network for data transfers then it makes sense.
But I also understand that most of the network will win from this because even if a 2000 hotspots are halved in earnings there will be more to be earned from other hotspots but this again is for the setup’s that are in the mountains next to a big city
15:55
so tbh maybe people like me will lose only tokens
Avatar
Original message was deleted or could not be loaded.
Gecko Perth 04/07/2022 3:55 PM
Is this the only means of gaming? I've seen spoofed addresses numerous times that are in remote areas getting crazy amounts of witnesses.
Avatar
no, there are many forms of "gaming"
Avatar
Avatar
BiggieJohn
no, there are many forms of "gaming"
True
Avatar
Original message was deleted or could not be loaded.
Gecko Perth 04/07/2022 3:58 PM
Eh?
Avatar
Helium network is more sophisticated than the surface problematic security risk normally found in IOT networks. It’s masterful (edited)
Avatar
Avatar
5eLF
Helium network is more sophisticated than the surface problematic security risk normally found in IOT networks. It’s masterful (edited)
Gecko Perth 04/07/2022 3:58 PM
Eh?
😋 1
Avatar
Deleted User 04/07/2022 3:59 PM
if i depost 100 K HNT in my binance, this count as vote for HIP58 ?
Avatar
Carl-bot BOT 04/07/2022 3:59 PM
No discussion on exchanges here, please see #rules.
Avatar
Deleted User 04/07/2022 3:59 PM
or only helium wallets count ?
Avatar
Avatar
Deleted User
or only helium wallets count ?
+120.83 dBm 04/07/2022 4:00 PM
You need a non-custodial wallet to vote, unless your custodian provides a means for you.
Avatar
Avatar
Gecko Perth
Eh?
Sorry…check the edit
Avatar
Avatar
+120.83 dBm
You need a non-custodial wallet to vote, unless your custodian provides a means for you.
Deleted User 04/07/2022 4:01 PM
so i my binance wallet don't count ?
passed 1
Avatar
Carl-bot BOT 04/07/2022 4:01 PM
No discussion on exchanges here, please see #rules.
💩 1
Avatar
Avatar
Carl-bot
No discussion on exchanges here, please see #rules.
Deleted User 04/07/2022 4:01 PM
learn read context you bot !
👍 3
Avatar
Doesn't count indeed. But you transfer some HNT up and down to vote if you want
Avatar
Deleted User 04/07/2022 4:04 PM
what is the biggest whale ?
16:04
i can swap 2 btc or not enough ? 😄
Avatar
Avatar
Deleted User
what is the biggest whale ?
Gecko Perth 04/07/2022 4:05 PM
Blue
😆 2
Avatar
Deleted User 04/07/2022 4:06 PM
as far i understoot the biggest whale have the heaviest vote, right ?
Avatar
Avatar
5eLF
True
For the record I’m not calling anyone using virtual machines gamers as It adds protection for end users and More efficient for operators
Avatar
Avatar
Deleted User
as far i understoot the biggest whale have the heaviest vote, right ?
Hst holders
👆 1
Avatar
+120.83 dBm 04/07/2022 4:09 PM
Somehow I doubt that 100 BTC could sway it decisively.
Avatar
Original message was deleted or could not be loaded.
My advice is don’t pay attention to it. It’s all about accumulation. I support this network and I’m grateful for the opportunity
Avatar
it would be less then the total HNT that has voted FOR hip58 so far (edited)
Avatar
ClickBangHeadshot! 04/07/2022 4:22 PM
how does one vote
Avatar
C0braChicken 04/07/2022 4:34 PM
kind of funny you have to pay to vote.. even if it is less than $0.01
Avatar
Avatar
C0braChicken
kind of funny you have to pay to vote.. even if it is less than $0.01
how else do you register your vote ? every transaction on teh blockchain requires some DC burn
👆 1
16:36
otherwise vote stuffing would be trivial
👍 1
Avatar
Avatar
Deleted User
so i my binance wallet don't count ?
C0braChicken 04/07/2022 4:37 PM
your more than welcome to slide 1 BTC over my way.. you can have my vote, but I already voted for you
😄 1
Avatar
Avatar
BiggieJohn
how else do you register your vote ? every transaction on teh blockchain requires some DC burn
C0braChicken 04/07/2022 4:37 PM
just being silly, goes well with my Run and Coke
Avatar
Avatar
Toad
I have locations that will lose 50% of there witnesses with hip 58. I wish there was a better way to solve the gaming problem, it sucks that all the effort put into off grid and remote tower setups could now feel like nothing in terms of HNT rewards. I guess you dont care unless your personally affected by it and the few that do are far outnumbered. It seems this could encourages more saturation which equals less HNT rewards for everyone, which is what the network needs for sensors but it could nerf POC rewards alot faster than they already are. Its sad how HIP 58 and the community is pointing at these remote setups and putting them in the same classification as gamers. (edited)
On the flip side the sensor use case needs to prove more use case on the network and thats really whats more important at this point. Its the loss of HNT rewards for those high effort remote setups that get hurt by losing HNT but I feel like it's generally better to prove the use of the networks sensors at this time. Its hard to argue with that. It just sucks to take the punch. Nobody can say there cant be a HIP in the future that could possibily change this, technology is constantly evolving. (edited)
💯 1
Avatar
Avatar
Toad
On the flip side the sensor use case needs to prove more use case on the network and thats really whats more important at this point. Its the loss of HNT rewards for those high effort remote setups that get hurt by losing HNT but I feel like it's generally better to prove the use of the networks sensors at this time. Its hard to argue with that. It just sucks to take the punch. Nobody can say there cant be a HIP in the future that could possibily change this, technology is constantly evolving. (edited)
have you ever tested the range of your hotspot with a mapper ? do you really provide data coverage at the same distance you witness ? (edited)
👍 2
Avatar
jertsu lil hnt boi 04/07/2022 4:58 PM
i changed my vote
16:58
i agree with it now
🤝 1
Avatar
PurpNovitzki 04/07/2022 5:02 PM
not sure how to look for this answer - but does this limit our range and thus affect our rewards?
Avatar
C0braChicken 04/07/2022 5:04 PM
Personally I feel that anything more than 25-50km is getting a bit silly. Yes I know some of you have built out for that, but at same time what is the need for one miner to be able to witness anything over 20 miners?
Avatar
Avatar
PurpNovitzki
not sure how to look for this answer - but does this limit our range and thus affect our rewards?
That is correct. A Hotspot would not be rewarded for any witness events they get from a Challengee Hotspot that's over 100km away. The Hotspot would also have a different set of valid witnesses because any Witnessing Hotspot > 100km away would be marked invalid. HIP 15 rules would apply for your beacon rewards.
Avatar
I assume that if you get a witness over 100 km and it is marked invalid that it will NOT affect your rewards EVERY time; right? That witness would have to also be selected via the 14 randomly selected witness process; if it "wins" the randomizer, then it negatively affects your rewards.
👍 1
💯 1
Avatar
Avatar
hashc0de
That is correct. A Hotspot would not be rewarded for any witness events they get from a Challengee Hotspot that's over 100km away. The Hotspot would also have a different set of valid witnesses because any Witnessing Hotspot > 100km away would be marked invalid. HIP 15 rules would apply for your beacon rewards.
And that is punishing the correctly asserted hotspots also
Avatar
Avatar
KeithR
I assume that if you get a witness over 100 km and it is marked invalid that it will NOT affect your rewards EVERY time; right? That witness would have to also be selected via the 14 randomly selected witness process; if it "wins" the randomizer, then it negatively affects your rewards.
that's correct.
17:23
I assumed that "getting a witness" means that it was one of the selected ones
👍 1
Avatar
Why not just keep ot out of the lottery for the 14 witnesses
Avatar
circular conversation. the data is useful.
👆 1
17:23
see scrollback
Avatar
Is there a plan for example if a hotspots keeps witnessing over 100+km to put it on the deny list?
17:25
Ive found hotspots with the mapper that are 800km away and all their activity is around 800km away (edited)
Avatar
Avatar
WTV
Is there a plan for example if a hotspots keeps witnessing over 100+km to put it on the deny list?
That wouldn't be a sufficiently valid reason to add it to the deny list. There are plenty of legitimate >100km witnesses. They just won't be rewarded any more. (edited)
👍 1
Avatar
Avatar
KeithR
That wouldn't be a sufficiently valid reason to add it to the deny list. There are plenty of legitimate >100km witnesses. They just won't be rewarded any more. (edited)
Then we run the risk of those legitimate asserted hotspots to reassert their location
Avatar
This HIP disallows the gamer the chance to earn large rewards for such witnessing during the time span it is being noticed and determined they are gamer by other means. (edited)
Avatar
Avatar
WTV
Then we run the risk of those legitimate asserted hotspots to reassert their location
Presumably at the cost of becoming too far from the witnessing <100km in the other direction. It seems to me that the natural response to this is that folks will need to put more hotspots out in the wild blue yonder to fill in the gaps between hotspots that are greater than 200 km from each other. A great opportunity for Pirate Radio DAO to save the day.
👍 1
Avatar
I disagree. Gamers that are taking a lot of hnt don't work im my experience in far distances. Usually close to each other with other means. This will only affect legitimate hotspots that like you said have legitimate 100+km links or those newbies spoofing far away from their location thinking they will get better rewards and will punish the hotspots around their "real location" because they will get those invalids (edited)
👎 1
Avatar
Avatar
WTV
I disagree. Gamers that are taking a lot of hnt don't work im my experience in far distances. Usually close to each other with other means. This will only affect legitimate hotspots that like you said have legitimate 100+km links or those newbies spoofing far away from their location thinking they will get better rewards and will punish the hotspots around their "real location" because they will get those invalids (edited)
I can't disprove your statement of not using far distances myself because I haven't explored the data; however, the HIP itself makes it very clear that is exactly what is happening. The gamers are using fake witnessing over 100km to increase their rewards. (edited)
💯 1
Avatar
mobilemonkey 04/07/2022 5:43 PM
New to the chat, just reading up on this HIP... Can someone please explain the term "gamer" and what they are doing that this HIP is preventing?
Avatar
Avatar
KeithR
I can't disprove your statement of not using far distances myself because I haven't explored the data; however, the HIP itself makes it very clear that is exactly what is happening. The gamers are using fake witnessing over 100km to increase their rewards. (edited)
love these "record setting" "totally legit" radios.
💯 1
😆 1
Avatar
Avatar
mobilemonkey
New to the chat, just reading up on this HIP... Can someone please explain the term "gamer" and what they are doing that this HIP is preventing?
Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 04/07/2022 5:44 PM
gamer=cheater , the cheat, is pumping in all kinds of witness actiity from thousands of km away (edited)
👆 1
Avatar
Avatar
hashc0de
love these "record setting" "totally legit" radios.
what this teaches me, and something we designed in pocv11 but didn't do a great job explaining, is that a continuous fpsl curve that goes to an infinite distance doesn't make sense for our network. sanity checks make sense. and applying one at 2x the expected sensor range is a good start.
👍 2
Avatar
mobilemonkey 04/07/2022 5:47 PM
@Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) thank you!!
👍 1
Avatar
PurpNovitzki 04/07/2022 5:48 PM
i’m curious as to why people would vote for limiting rewards? or i#would this prevent cheaters from “stealing” rewards, thus allowing us to earn more
Avatar
Gamers will move their hotspots , this hip will end up only punishing legitimate hotspots and reduce earnings regional users. Also it doesn't address that Transmit levels are different for each region. And it doesn't take into account lower frequency travel better usually , With 433mhz beating 928mhz by a whole 6db for the same distance using FSPL This hip should be integrated into hip49 as regional tx limit. just pick an arbitrary number and go with it like this HiP , one limit for totally different signal and strength .
👎 1
👍 1
Avatar
Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 04/07/2022 5:48 PM
this represents real world iot use cases.
👍 2
Avatar
Avatar
hashc0de
what this teaches me, and something we designed in pocv11 but didn't do a great job explaining, is that a continuous fpsl curve that goes to an infinite distance doesn't make sense for our network. sanity checks make sense. and applying one at 2x the expected sensor range is a good start.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/07/2022 5:49 PM
Yeah, i always thought POCv11 was going to invalidate those sort of witnesses. Guess not. 🙂 (edited)
Avatar
Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 04/07/2022 5:50 PM
1 miner on a hill above a city, does not represent most end use cases. multiple miners building an iot network over a county or city parish/province (non-us) does represent an end IoT use case.
17:50
Also all that 5g stuff people want, none of that is traveling 100km
Avatar
If your not putting your miner on a hill your doing something wrong
17:51
Why put it in a bad transmit location
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Yeah, i always thought POCv11 was going to invalidate those sort of witnesses. Guess not. 🙂 (edited)
the time is now.
⏰ 1
Avatar
Avatar
MoreDPS
If your not putting your miner on a hill your doing something wrong
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/07/2022 5:51 PM
So almost everyone that puts one where they live? lol
Avatar
Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 04/07/2022 5:51 PM
honestly on a large enough farm you would use several miners to run the network.
Avatar
I have multiple customers I can choose from I don't put it in bad locations
👍 1
Avatar
Avatar
hashc0de
the time is now.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/07/2022 5:51 PM
Avatar
Avatar
Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST)
Also all that 5g stuff people want, none of that is traveling 100km
i think 5g should be treated very differently from lorawan but that's for another channel.
💯 1
Avatar
Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 04/07/2022 5:52 PM
True
Avatar
Falconn_jan 04/07/2022 6:20 PM
My hotspots depends regulary on beacons from the capital city at 100-130 kms away. There is just a sea between us. I'd lose a lot of valid beacons if they would implement that. I'd prefer to increase the range to 150-200 kms to give the rural and coastal miners a fair chance. HIP-58 does nothing to prevent gamers and would cut earnings of fair miners like me who live at coastal and rural area's.
Avatar
Avatar
Falconn_jan
My hotspots depends regulary on beacons from the capital city at 100-130 kms away. There is just a sea between us. I'd lose a lot of valid beacons if they would implement that. I'd prefer to increase the range to 150-200 kms to give the rural and coastal miners a fair chance. HIP-58 does nothing to prevent gamers and would cut earnings of fair miners like me who live at coastal and rural area's.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/07/2022 6:30 PM
Can you explain how this would not affect gamers?
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Can you explain how this would not affect gamers?
Falconn_jan 04/07/2022 6:36 PM
Its in the word: "gamers" (and probably spoofers) can reduce the distances and still game the system. They would just move to larger cities or hotspot densities where they are harder to spot and deny. And shouldn't be at the cost of miners that do depend on beacons from far away.
Avatar
Avatar
Falconn_jan
My hotspots depends regulary on beacons from the capital city at 100-130 kms away. There is just a sea between us. I'd lose a lot of valid beacons if they would implement that. I'd prefer to increase the range to 150-200 kms to give the rural and coastal miners a fair chance. HIP-58 does nothing to prevent gamers and would cut earnings of fair miners like me who live at coastal and rural area's.
Yep this is going to crush the isolated solo miners. My hotspot is regularly the only witness to hotspots over 100km away. (edited)
Avatar
Avatar
Falconn_jan
Its in the word: "gamers" (and probably spoofers) can reduce the distances and still game the system. They would just move to larger cities or hotspot densities where they are harder to spot and deny. And shouldn't be at the cost of miners that do depend on beacons from far away.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/07/2022 6:39 PM
They can still be spotted ;)
Avatar
jertsu lil hnt boi 04/07/2022 6:40 PM
you know
18:40
i just realised i dont even make 100+km witness on regular basis
18:40
and i guess this hip is meant for da too smart pipal?
18:40
thats a reason i changed my vote to agree
👍 1
18:40
🤝 2
Avatar
Pirate_ProfTK 04/07/2022 6:41 PM
Hopefully after this I hope I get enough time to type up a HIP to propose a strategy to incentivise rural hotspots.
👍 1
Avatar
I just don't think this is a good solution. You don't think cheaters will have a work around for this in less than 24hrs? If a setup in a rural place that gets rewards from far away is gimped by this, they will no longer provide coverage for sensors 30km from it.
Avatar
Avatar
Pirate_ProfTK
Hopefully after this I hope I get enough time to type up a HIP to propose a strategy to incentivise rural hotspots.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/07/2022 6:42 PM
I'm available for brainstorming if you want :)
💯 1
Avatar
Avatar
hashc0de
love these "record setting" "totally legit" radios.
I would think gamers weren't that silly. Isn't that more likely the case that someone asserted a hotspot for a new location but hasn't sent it yet?
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
I'm available for brainstorming if you want :)
Pirate_ProfTK 04/07/2022 6:43 PM
I'll hit you up. I am putting together a project these few weeks for forest services, after that I'll jump on this.
👍 1
Avatar
Avatar
KeithR
I would think gamers weren't that silly. Isn't that more likely the case that someone asserted a hotspot for a new location but hasn't sent it yet?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/07/2022 6:43 PM
Yeah, but wouldn't a simple misassert be invalid?
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Yeah, but wouldn't a simple misassert be invalid?
I am definitely ok with that.
Avatar
Falconn_jan 04/07/2022 6:45 PM
I think HIP 57, the establishment period would be a much better option. Like a trial period for new hotspots. This is what gamers would have to make changes to their gamed setup. And "look" valid for the first period.
Avatar
Avatar
KeithR
I am definitely ok with that.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/07/2022 6:45 PM
I've seen a few that were in the Midwest witnessing my beacon from California and still are somehow "valid". Lol
Avatar
Yeah, I get the idea behind this but there has to be a better way. A hard cap will be bypassed instantly (edited)
Avatar
Avatar
KeithR
I would think gamers weren't that silly. Isn't that more likely the case that someone asserted a hotspot for a new location but hasn't sent it yet?
No I think there are some folks that just want to do it for fun now. Especially noticed more of it once they got on the denylist
😟 1
Avatar
Avatar
Falconn_jan
I think HIP 57, the establishment period would be a much better option. Like a trial period for new hotspots. This is what gamers would have to make changes to their gamed setup. And "look" valid for the first period.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/07/2022 6:47 PM
57 punishes legit users with no effect on gamers. 🤷‍♂️
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
57 punishes legit users with no effect on gamers. 🤷‍♂️
Falconn_jan 04/07/2022 6:47 PM
58 is the same
Avatar
Avatar
Falconn_jan
58 is the same
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/07/2022 6:47 PM
Not at all.
Avatar
Avatar
hashc0de
No I think there are some folks that just want to do it for fun now. Especially noticed more of it once they got on the denylist
And with all manufacturers not implementing it on the challenger side. We need multiple tools. Some sanity checks and some actual economic barriers.
💯 2
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/07/2022 6:48 PM
But then I disagree with how this hip is being presented
Avatar
Giving validators the deny list should help with that a bit too
💯 2
Avatar
Avatar
r4wk
Giving validators the deny list should help with that a bit too
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/07/2022 6:49 PM
Yeah. Takes it out of the makers' hands.
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Yeah. Takes it out of the makers' hands.
Yup, and honestly I think people don't talk enough about this benefit from light hot spots but I'm super excited about it
💯 1
Avatar
Falconn_jan 04/07/2022 6:54 PM
In my country there are mappers and volunteers that drive around the country and report spoofers etc... this system works I don't think helium needs much more HIP's that would affect people with good setups, located on Islands and coasts. In the real word there are courts that decide based on evidence etc.. Can counter a ruling if illegitimate on newer evidence.
Avatar
Avatar
Falconn_jan
In my country there are mappers and volunteers that drive around the country and report spoofers etc... this system works I don't think helium needs much more HIP's that would affect people with good setups, located on Islands and coasts. In the real word there are courts that decide based on evidence etc.. Can counter a ruling if illegitimate on newer evidence.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/07/2022 6:55 PM
Mappers can't be trusted unfortunately
👍 1
18:55
Any of the data can be spoofed
18:55
Thus hip22
Avatar
yamato_jazg 04/07/2022 6:56 PM
I just vote YES to HIP58 👍 🧐
👍 1
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Mappers can't be trusted unfortunately
Falconn_jan 04/07/2022 6:56 PM
None can be trusted that is why there are rules. For example reckless drivers. Reducing the speed limit wouldn't mean the same reckless drivers would stop.
Avatar
Avatar
Falconn_jan
None can be trusted that is why there are rules. For example reckless drivers. Reducing the speed limit wouldn't mean the same reckless drivers would stop.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/07/2022 6:57 PM
Thank you for proving my point?
Avatar
Mappers individually can't be trusted but many many mappers together can sort of be trusted. but yeah... not doable across the globe
👍 1
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/07/2022 6:58 PM
These systems have to be trustless
Avatar
Unless Nova labs stepped in and allowed certain mappers to be "trusted", just brain storming a bit
Avatar
Avatar
r4wk
Unless Nova labs stepped in and allowed certain mappers to be "trusted", just brain storming a bit
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/07/2022 6:59 PM
Hip 22
Avatar
Yeah that hehe, don't think it'll ever happen tho :( do you?
Avatar
Avatar
r4wk
Yeah that hehe, don't think it'll ever happen tho :( do you?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/07/2022 7:01 PM
Seems there has been some nice progress on it recently :)
Avatar
Nice well sounds like that's a much better solution
Avatar
Falconn_jan 04/07/2022 7:04 PM
My company deploys these miners across the country and supports poorer families and households with internet and household income. And hosting these setups can supplement as much as 10% of most household incomes. We deploy them mostly in rural area's where it is under developed. Most villages don't even have a fixed internet line until we come along. Due to the terrain being flat or at coasts distances of 100 KMs can be easily reached. I'm against gaming but this HIP should be revised to 150KM
Avatar
Thankfully they said they can change this hard cap
👍 1
Avatar
Avatar
Falconn_jan
My company deploys these miners across the country and supports poorer families and households with internet and household income. And hosting these setups can supplement as much as 10% of most household incomes. We deploy them mostly in rural area's where it is under developed. Most villages don't even have a fixed internet line until we come along. Due to the terrain being flat or at coasts distances of 100 KMs can be easily reached. I'm against gaming but this HIP should be revised to 150KM
thats nice, but not what the purpose of the helium network is for
Avatar
Avatar
Falconn_jan
My company deploys these miners across the country and supports poorer families and households with internet and household income. And hosting these setups can supplement as much as 10% of most household incomes. We deploy them mostly in rural area's where it is under developed. Most villages don't even have a fixed internet line until we come along. Due to the terrain being flat or at coasts distances of 100 KMs can be easily reached. I'm against gaming but this HIP should be revised to 150KM
what company?
19:10
Sorry for spamming, but just to show we got legitimate roll-out and coverage. Lorawan will be of benefit for a lot of rural communities by allowing IOT devices to help develop the country. And bringing household income to thousands.
Avatar
Avatar
mattyk84
what company?
Falconn_jan 04/07/2022 7:11 PM
Falconn 😅
Avatar
Avatar
Falconn_jan
Sorry for spamming, but just to show we got legitimate roll-out and coverage. Lorawan will be of benefit for a lot of rural communities by allowing IOT devices to help develop the country. And bringing household income to thousands.
there are a couple of differnt ones online that im finding
Avatar
Avatar
mattyk84
there are a couple of differnt ones online that im finding
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/07/2022 7:12 PM
Which one is in India? :)
Avatar
Avatar
mattyk84
there are a couple of differnt ones online that im finding
Falconn_jan 04/07/2022 7:12 PM
We setup clusters around the country and incentivise locals to pick up from what we started.
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Which one is in India? :)
why do you say india?
Avatar
Avatar
mattyk84
why do you say india?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/07/2022 7:13 PM
Text in screenshots
Avatar
Avatar
mattyk84
why do you say india?
Falconn_jan 04/07/2022 7:14 PM
He's american don't blame him for not recognising different scripts 😉
Avatar
Avatar
Falconn_jan
He's american don't blame him for not recognising different scripts 😉
well, actually i saw "thailand" in your profile description
Avatar
Avatar
Falconn_jan
He's american don't blame him for not recognising different scripts 😉
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/07/2022 7:14 PM
Doh! Did I get that one wrong? Dang. Which script is that? 🙂 (edited)
Avatar
i wouldnt have recognized the scripts either
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/07/2022 7:15 PM
Oh, Thailand! Crap! Lol
Avatar
BUT, the ability to do super long-distance witnessing is a nice mining boost, but doesn't really fit the purpose of the network, or how coverage would work. This HIP is saying it addresses gaming, which it does to an extent. I don't think arguing against it because it decreases unproductive witness coverage is a good reason to vote it down.
👍 3
Avatar
Falconn_jan 04/07/2022 7:17 PM
I'm from the Netherlands 😅 but can see the difference between most asian scripts. Lao, Thai, Burmese, Korean, cambodian, Japansese and chinese mostly
👍 1
Avatar
Cheater will just work around the 100km cap tho. That's the part I don't get
👍 2
Avatar
Avatar
r4wk
Cheater will just work around the 100km cap tho. That's the part I don't get
hows that?
19:18
set up closer clusters?
Avatar
Avatar
mattyk84
i wouldnt have recognized the scripts either
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/07/2022 7:18 PM
I'm usually better about it. 😅
Avatar
Avatar
mattyk84
BUT, the ability to do super long-distance witnessing is a nice mining boost, but doesn't really fit the purpose of the network, or how coverage would work. This HIP is saying it addresses gaming, which it does to an extent. I don't think arguing against it because it decreases unproductive witness coverage is a good reason to vote it down.
Falconn_jan 04/07/2022 7:18 PM
That is why i'm not against it. Just that 100Kms is a weird cap. And cheaters will cap their gaming all nicely at 98-99Kms
Avatar
Avatar
mattyk84
hows that?
They are cheating... they'll just move them or spoof distance.
👍 3
Avatar
the hard part about the cheaters is they will always cheat and change their methods
💯 2
Avatar
correct, that's why I feel this is a waste of time haha
Avatar
I just had a cluster pop up in my town. I have about 9 hotspots, and am the only network here. It reduced my earnings scale. I submitted to the denylist, and yesterday they all disappeared after being put on the denylist
🤘 5
Avatar
i think its worth it to do what we can
Avatar
deny list good
👍 2
Avatar
at least make it difficult
Avatar
Avatar
r4wk
correct, that's why I feel this is a waste of time haha
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/07/2022 7:21 PM
Again, I think the writers presenting this as anti-gaming is wrong. This is about incentivizing users to build the network to the end goal. (edited)
Avatar
I can't remember which HIP it was, but i just read one that suggested an onboarding period for new hotspots, I think there's something there worth digging into
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Again, I think the writers presenting this as anti-gaming is wrong. This is about incentivizing users to build the network to the end goal. (edited)
I agree with this, and it should be the main focal point
👍 1
Avatar
Avatar
mattyk84
I can't remember which HIP it was, but i just read one that suggested an onboarding period for new hotspots, I think there's something there worth digging into
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/07/2022 7:22 PM
That's 57
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Again, I think the writers presenting this as anti-gaming is wrong. This is about incentivizing users to build the network to the end goal. (edited)
Yeah I can see that. I'm here for sensors. The rewards just help pay for sensors and my hot-spot for coverage
👍 1
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/07/2022 7:23 PM
Frankly the devs should have had this as the limit from the beginning.
👍 1
Avatar
I think 57 in conjunction with the denylist go a long way to stop the gaming
19:27
esp when validators hold the deny list
👍 1
Avatar
Avatar
mattyk84
I think 57 in conjunction with the denylist go a long way to stop the gaming
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/07/2022 7:28 PM
57 is terrible. Legit hotspots don't get paid for their work, and cheaters just wait a bit, then cheat. It does nothing to stop them. (edited)
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/07/2022 7:35 PM
Hey @groot etl is back up!
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Frankly the devs should have had this as the limit from the beginning.
Falconn_jan 04/07/2022 7:40 PM
Exactly
👍 1
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/07/2022 7:46 PM
Aww.. Thought GK was going to weigh in. 🙂
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Aww.. Thought GK was going to weigh in. 🙂
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 04/07/2022 9:22 PM
😄 1
Avatar
What is hip 58 , poc limit
Avatar
Avatar
mohangra26
What is hip 58 , poc limit
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/07/2022 9:35 PM
100km
Avatar
Within 100km only accepted ?
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/07/2022 9:36 PM
Correct
21:36
You should read the hip. 🙂
Avatar
It's not doing witness to next door . How it will witness for 100 km
Avatar
Avatar
mohangra26
It's not doing witness to next door . How it will witness for 100 km
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/07/2022 9:38 PM
Next door would be too close to witness
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Next door would be too close to witness
Even that is also not witnessing
Avatar
Avatar
mohangra26
Even that is also not witnessing
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/07/2022 9:39 PM
Sounds like a different issue. #hotspot-help
Avatar
OptimusPrime 04/07/2022 9:44 PM
I believe the definition of the coverage needs be more clear: the distance of beacons picked up by other hotspots or the distance for being capable of transmitting data. Otherwise, helium can claim I have a coverage over 200 km away but actually no data of sensors can be transmit back. The utility of the network would be less attractive. (edited)
👍 1
Avatar
I think everyone here forgets that this is PoC reward distance. Data transfers and the rewards for that can happen over this limit. Aka the actual use cases for the network can still proceed unhindered. (edited)
💯 2
Avatar
I don't understand, this whole Hotspot project is about -coverage- and now you're gona limit how far this coverage may be. Ie, only hotspots in crowded areas would be able to function, but hotspots in remote areas would now be "banned", read: hurt, if they're over 100km away from next hotspots. Not very nice if you live in an less densily populated area, like in Australia. I noticed that like in France that outside the bigger cities people hardly already get coverage. So, this doesn't sound fair to me. (edited)
👎 1
Avatar
Avatar
Herrieman
I don't understand, this whole Hotspot project is about -coverage- and now you're gona limit how far this coverage may be. Ie, only hotspots in crowded areas would be able to function, but hotspots in remote areas would now be "banned", read: hurt, if they're over 100km away from next hotspots. Not very nice if you live in an less densily populated area, like in Australia. I noticed that like in France that outside the bigger cities people hardly already get coverage. So, this doesn't sound fair to me. (edited)
Read my comment above. Coverage is not being limited, just reward for it has a cap/max distance.
22:15
The data from sensors, if they are past this 100km limit, will still be rewarded for.
👍 1
Avatar
Avatar
Herrieman
I don't understand, this whole Hotspot project is about -coverage- and now you're gona limit how far this coverage may be. Ie, only hotspots in crowded areas would be able to function, but hotspots in remote areas would now be "banned", read: hurt, if they're over 100km away from next hotspots. Not very nice if you live in an less densily populated area, like in Australia. I noticed that like in France that outside the bigger cities people hardly already get coverage. So, this doesn't sound fair to me. (edited)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/07/2022 10:18 PM
Banned? No one is getting banned.
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Banned? No one is getting banned.
Banned, read hurt.
Avatar
Avatar
Herrieman
Banned, read hurt.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/07/2022 10:19 PM
Ahhh ok. That's a lot different. 🙂
Avatar
Avatar
Herrieman
I don't understand, this whole Hotspot project is about -coverage- and now you're gona limit how far this coverage may be. Ie, only hotspots in crowded areas would be able to function, but hotspots in remote areas would now be "banned", read: hurt, if they're over 100km away from next hotspots. Not very nice if you live in an less densily populated area, like in Australia. I noticed that like in France that outside the bigger cities people hardly already get coverage. So, this doesn't sound fair to me. (edited)
Do you have hotspots now that are witnessing over 100k? If so, please provide example. Otherwise what I hear is people complaining that their imaginary Ferrari can not go over the 85 mph speed limit on the highway, and is unfair to them.
Avatar
Avatar
Fizzy
Do you have hotspots now that are witnessing over 100k? If so, please provide example. Otherwise what I hear is people complaining that their imaginary Ferrari can not go over the 85 mph speed limit on the highway, and is unfair to them.
My hotspot doesn't have an issue. My coverage for witnesses is max 20km, and my beacons reach about 20-30km. Am in an urban area where I am lower part of the country (reclaimed from sea).
22:25
And actually whole country is already 'low', hence The Netherlands 😛
👍 1
Avatar
Avatar
Fizzy
Do you have hotspots now that are witnessing over 100k? If so, please provide example. Otherwise what I hear is people complaining that their imaginary Ferrari can not go over the 85 mph speed limit on the highway, and is unfair to them.
22:25
Mine
22:26
What's your problem guys with good installations.. .really
Avatar
Indeed
Avatar
It's been a long time that all the hips are against good installations
Avatar
Nothing wrong. But there are typically other hotspots past the 100km mark can provide just as much coverage.
Avatar
I really don't like these rule changes while everyone is playing the game (edited)
22:28
People paid good money for high coverage set-ups
Avatar
Avatar
Fizzy
Nothing wrong. But there are typically other hotspots past the 100km mark can provide just as much coverage.
This is rural area. You need redundancy as well. And in my case it is mountainous. I cover one side of the mountain and the others cover the other side
Avatar
Avatar
mixtri
Click to see attachment 🖼️
In your example, the is a patch of hotspots inbetween. What if those are providing just as good coverage as yourself, but not getting rewarded just because they have been unlucky and losing out to others past that 100km mark, due to the 14 witness limit. (edited)
Avatar
People who made this hip have no idea about lora, its benefits and radio design. They just want to cut earnings from good installations
🤣 1
Avatar
Avatar
mixtri
What's your problem guys with good installations.. .really
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/07/2022 10:29 PM
The myth of the "good install"
Avatar
Guys I'm radio planner. What you are doing is just irrelevant to lora. Sorry
22:31
100km witnessing due to the gaming fact? Fight the gaming, not the PoC
👍 1
👎 1
Avatar
Avatar
mixtri
Guys I'm radio planner. What you are doing is just irrelevant to lora. Sorry
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/07/2022 10:31 PM
Plan for data, not poc
Avatar
Avatar
mixtri
100km witnessing due to the gaming fact? Fight the gaming, not the PoC
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/07/2022 10:32 PM
This hip never should have been presented as an anti-gamer hip
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Plan for data, not poc
You should have a motivation to keep your miner connected. Now, we make most of our expenses based on PoC.
Avatar
Avatar
mixtri
You should have a motivation to keep your miner connected. Now, we make most of our expenses based on PoC.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/07/2022 10:32 PM
If you're not installing to build the network to the end goal, you're not helping the network
Avatar
Avatar
mixtri
You should have a motivation to keep your miner connected. Now, we make most of our expenses based on PoC.
But you do? But if you don't think so, you should unplug it. Ill be watching for that hotspot to go offline. 🙂
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
If you're not installing to build the network to the end goal, you're not helping the network
I do it, but this has nothing to do with what is happening the last period. Cutting from the miners miners miners. Trust me, this will end up well.
Avatar
Have you seen cities like London? They don't earn shit anymore now due to low transmit scale because it's overly crowded. (edited)
Avatar
Avatar
Herrieman
Have you seen cities like London? They don't earn shit anymore now due to low transmit scale because it's overly crowded. (edited)
Right, so you understand this. Then I am confused on why you said: "Not very nice if you live in an less densily populated area, like in Australia. I noticed that like in France that outside the bigger cities people hardly already get coverage."
Avatar
Avatar
Fizzy
But you do? But if you don't think so, you should unplug it. Ill be watching for that hotspot to go offline. 🙂
This is what I call pathetic behaviour. If you don't like , disconnect... We spent money and time and now rules change.
Avatar
Avatar
mixtri
I do it, but this has nothing to do with what is happening the last period. Cutting from the miners miners miners. Trust me, this will end up well.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/07/2022 10:36 PM
The pool of hnt going to miners has not changed, so not sure what you're talking about.
Avatar
Avatar
mixtri
This is what I call pathetic behaviour. If you don't like , disconnect... We spent money and time and now rules change.
So what you are saying, is that you did not know what HIPs were when you bought your hotspots, and how HIPs stand for Helium Improvement Proposal", which inherently do "Change the rules" as you say...? (edited)
Avatar
I had to wait 3 months for my hotspot, and in the mean time... some miner impacting HIPs got adopted...
Avatar
Avatar
Herrieman
I had to wait 3 months for my hotspot, and in the mean time... some miner impacting HIPs got adopted...
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/07/2022 10:39 PM
Which the community voted for...
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
The pool of hnt going to miners has not changed, so not sure what you're talking about.
The rewards for PoC are reducing per miner with the latest changes. Prove me otherwise. I've started with 0.5 HNT a day in December and now I'm at 0.15max. I know that miners are adding up, so if the pool stays that same then we will get nothing at the end....
Avatar
Avatar
mixtri
The rewards for PoC are reducing per miner with the latest changes. Prove me otherwise. I've started with 0.5 HNT a day in December and now I'm at 0.15max. I know that miners are adding up, so if the pool stays that same then we will get nothing at the end....
Someone needs a bit of #hip-39-hnt-redenomination in their life I guess. 😄
Avatar
Avatar
mixtri
The rewards for PoC are reducing per miner with the latest changes. Prove me otherwise. I've started with 0.5 HNT a day in December and now I'm at 0.15max. I know that miners are adding up, so if the pool stays that same then we will get nothing at the end....
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/07/2022 10:40 PM
I said the pool... Yea hnt per miner goes down. It always will. More miners all pulling from the same pool.
Avatar
Avatar
Fizzy
So what you are saying, is that you did not know what HIPs were when you bought your hotspots, and how HIPs stand for Helium Improvement Proposal", which inherently do "Change the rules" as you say...? (edited)
How is the voting done? Do you think it represents the community or just the oligarchs? Reply to me
👍 1
👎 1
Avatar
Avatar
mixtri
How is the voting done? Do you think it represents the community or just the oligarchs? Reply to me
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/07/2022 10:41 PM
On the helium vote site
Avatar
Avatar
mixtri
The rewards for PoC are reducing per miner with the latest changes. Prove me otherwise. I've started with 0.5 HNT a day in December and now I'm at 0.15max. I know that miners are adding up, so if the pool stays that same then we will get nothing at the end....
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/07/2022 10:42 PM
The rewards per hotspot going down has nothing to do with recent hips
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
The rewards per hotspot going down has nothing to do with recent hips
Of course, preparation for Light Hotspots.... we miners notice that not a lot of effort is put into current situation
facepalm 1
Avatar
Avatar
mixtri
How is the voting done? Do you think it represents the community or just the oligarchs? Reply to me
Currently there are many voting options on the table up for discussion. The one currently being used is the one that the devs have done and have written code for is the heliumvote website, which for the most part gives a temp check for most of these thus far. I hardly see anyone complain that the "Rules changed" when that went from discord 👍 👎 emojis on discord, to the heliumvote website for making changes.
Avatar
Avatar
Herrieman
Of course, preparation for Light Hotspots.... we miners notice that not a lot of effort is put into current situation
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/07/2022 10:45 PM
Rewards are going to go down a lot when light hotspots fix the network issues. Get ready
Avatar
Ok guys, you are right. I will lose earnings in short and long term so I vote against. I'm minority and my vote doesn't matter. This is how I feel and how I express it. I don't see at all how this PoC will help me out. Have a nice day
Avatar
Avatar
mixtri
Ok guys, you are right. I will lose earnings in short and long term so I vote against. I'm minority and my vote doesn't matter. This is how I feel and how I express it. I don't see at all how this PoC will help me out. Have a nice day
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/07/2022 10:46 PM
It's not about you. It's about the network.
😆 2
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
It's not about you. It's about the network.
Explain me. How does it help the network
Avatar
Avatar
mixtri
Explain me. How does it help the network
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/07/2022 10:47 PM
Already did
Avatar
Avatar
mixtri
Ok guys, you are right. I will lose earnings in short and long term so I vote against. I'm minority and my vote doesn't matter. This is how I feel and how I express it. I don't see at all how this PoC will help me out. Have a nice day
Well then you should look to IoT solutions and sensors. That is what this network is being built for. When the world is covered with Helium, there will be little need and little rewards to be given to "Proving" coverage.
👍 1
Avatar
Avatar
Fizzy
Well then you should look to IoT solutions and sensors. That is what this network is being built for. When the world is covered with Helium, there will be little need and little rewards to be given to "Proving" coverage.
I hope you are right. I hope it's the same for rural installations. We haven't reached that point yet so I'm not ready to accept this hip. That's all. If it would happen later maybe I would not care.
Avatar
Are islands a part of the network?I live on an island and there are a lot more around me with low population but there is clear view because the sea is between and some witnesses are 250km,they have to find better ways to ban spoofers
👍 2
Avatar
Avatar
Smx
Are islands a part of the network?I live on an island and there are a lot more around me with low population but there is clear view because the sea is between and some witnesses are 250km,they have to find better ways to ban spoofers
What does surprise you? A batch of Devs without radio knowledge suggest hips based on gaming.
👎 1
Avatar
Rural areas can only be saved by people like you deploying in them, and setting the base station of coverage in that area for the future. If/when we reach an inflection point to data over PoC, and those areas are not covered, yes it could not be "worth it" setting up coverage for that area unless the need is for IoT solutions for the there and then for that purpose.
Avatar
Why is it that every time a developer (which is just as much part of the community as anyone else, especially under the recently announced restructuring) does something someone doesn't like their knowledge is immediately bashed? Do you have any support for the theory that the devs know nothing of RF?
👆 2
Avatar
Avatar
mixtri
What does surprise you? A batch of Devs without radio knowledge suggest hips based on gaming.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/07/2022 10:53 PM
The devs.. The people that made this whole thing... You think they don't understand rf?? 🤣 (edited)
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
The devs.. The people that made this whole thing... You think they don't understand rf?? 🤣 (edited)
From the way they think that radio waves propagate obviously they don't
facepalm 1
Avatar
Avatar
mixtri
From the way they think that radio waves propagate obviously they don't
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/07/2022 10:55 PM
What network did you build..?
Avatar
Avatar
groot
Why is it that every time a developer (which is just as much part of the community as anyone else, especially under the recently announced restructuring) does something someone doesn't like their knowledge is immediately bashed? Do you have any support for the theory that the devs know nothing of RF?
Yes. Many examples. From the fact that path loss based on LOS is utilised for calculating the validation of miners.
22:55
I suspect something like this.
😄 1
Avatar
Avatar
mixtri
Yes. Many examples. From the fact that path loss based on LOS is utilised for calculating the validation of miners.
Verizon, Tmo
😄 1
Avatar
I think its the easiest way for them at this point to ban some spoofers,but its not fair for locations like mine or others where other miners are km away and they have probably spend extra money for antenna amp etc
Avatar
Avatar
Smx
I think its the easiest way for them at this point to ban some spoofers,but its not fair for locations like mine or others where other miners are km away and they have probably spend extra money for antenna amp etc
So you think what is happening now is good enough? Waiting days if not weeks for a hotspot to be deny listed?
Avatar
Avatar
Smx
I think its the easiest way for them at this point to ban some spoofers,but its not fair for locations like mine or others where other miners are km away and they have probably spend extra money for antenna amp etc
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/07/2022 10:58 PM
You're not transmitting data from iot devices at 250km
Avatar
Avatar
mixtri
Yes. Many examples. From the fact that path loss based on LOS is utilised for calculating the validation of miners.
Explain what someone as knowledgable as yourself would do instead
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
You're not transmitting data from iot devices at 250km
I made an investment,and at some point i want to get my money back,this wont help me and also others at my location if the earnings are low everyone is going to sell the miners and guess what no coverage here
Avatar
Avatar
groot
Explain what someone as knowledgable as yourself would do instead
Is it me that can change the network? There are many more accurate geo based models for propagation. If you combine them with AI you have quite accurate path loss estimations. But ok, let's keep it simple. I know that this network wants to keep everything simple. But it doesn't mean that it is correct. I have to give up, going to do some real radio planning.
Avatar
Avatar
Smx
I made an investment,and at some point i want to get my money back,this wont help me and also others at my location if the earnings are low everyone is going to sell the miners and guess what no coverage here
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/07/2022 11:02 PM
The team has always been very clear that no one is promised a profit
💯 1
Avatar
Avatar
Smx
I made an investment,and at some point i want to get my money back,this wont help me and also others at my location if the earnings are low everyone is going to sell the miners and guess what no coverage here
Thats ok, the network will continue on.
✅ 1
Avatar
Avatar
mixtri
Is it me that can change the network? There are many more accurate geo based models for propagation. If you combine them with AI you have quite accurate path loss estimations. But ok, let's keep it simple. I know that this network wants to keep everything simple. But it doesn't mean that it is correct. I have to give up, going to do some real radio planning.
None of that is feasible to put into the blockchain code. Sure there are better ways, but these limits are more sanity checks than 'the definitive truth'.
Avatar
The network will continue but they want coverage right,and all of you money right?
Avatar
Avatar
Smx
The network will continue but they want coverage right,and all of you money right?
Coverage will still be provided. the person that just bought your hotspot will do it if you wont...?
Avatar
Not in my location
23:04
Thats the thing some location will be without coverage
Avatar
Avatar
Smx
Not in my location
But somewhere. And your location, you mean your small foot print of land, vs the enormous coverage 1 hotspot a few miles over can provide. (edited)
Avatar
There are small islands far away from each other with small population,so you mean that it doesnt matter if there is no voverage there right?
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
You're not transmitting data from iot devices at 250km
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 04/07/2022 11:07 PM
🤣 2
😂 1
Avatar
Avatar
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions)
Click to see attachment 🖼️
I would like to be an admin on this network, please and thank you.
passed 1
Avatar
Avatar
Smx
There are small islands far away from each other with small population,so you mean that it doesnt matter if there is no voverage there right?
Well realistically, if none of the people on those islands care about Lorawan, Helium, or what it can do, then there would be no point of coverage over there anyway, other than to reward PoC reward chasers because there is no one in those hexes. (edited)
Avatar
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 04/07/2022 11:10 PM
I’m gonna put all my OTG in a big cicle in the middle of Palm dessert…. (edited)
🤣 1
Avatar
I'm currently looking at the ETL for just how many witnesses will be invalidated and by what hotspots. So far the ETL is mostly complaining the queries take too long...
👍 1
Avatar
Avatar
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions)
I’m gonna put all my OTG in a big cicle in the middle of Palm dessert…. (edited)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/07/2022 11:13 PM
Avatar
Avatar
Fizzy
Well realistically, if none of the people on those islands care about Lorawan, Helium, or what it can do, then there would be no point of coverage over there anyway, other than to reward PoC reward chasers because there is no one in those hexes. (edited)
Guess you have no idea then,greece is full of small islands and in summer a lot of visitors are going to use the network but as i said before between islands is sea and signals can reach far away in some cases
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Click to see attachment 🖼️
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 04/07/2022 11:14 PM
Avatar
Avatar
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions)
Click to see attachment 🖼️
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/07/2022 11:14 PM
You should totally draw crop circles out there lol
Avatar
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 04/07/2022 11:15 PM
If u in my circle ⭕️… ur gonna have excellent sensor coverage…
💯 2
Avatar
Avatar
Smx
Guess you have no idea then,greece is full of small islands and in summer a lot of visitors are going to use the network but as i said before between islands is sea and signals can reach far away in some cases
I already see hotspots on these islands. And plenty of res8 hexes free of hotspots that can be utilized on land.
Avatar
Avatar
Smx
Guess you have no idea then,greece is full of small islands and in summer a lot of visitors are going to use the network but as i said before between islands is sea and signals can reach far away in some cases
What are your use cases though? I see this is your first time today talking in discord. 🙂
Avatar
Avatar
Smx
Guess you have no idea then,greece is full of small islands and in summer a lot of visitors are going to use the network but as i said before between islands is sea and signals can reach far away in some cases
100 km, is almost goes across 2 res4s, and reaches from mainland, skips past a few small islands to a bigger one. Which Islands where you thinking about?
Avatar
Avatar
Fizzy
What are your use cases though? I see this is your first time today talking in discord. 🙂
And ?
Avatar
Avatar
Smx
And ?
And... what are your use cases...?
Avatar
No reason to continue this conversation,you have your opinion i have mine for some locations i think it makes no difference the limit for other it makes ,bye
Avatar
Avatar
Smx
No reason to continue this conversation,you have your opinion i have mine for some locations i think it makes no difference the limit for other it makes ,bye
😂 1
Avatar
One of the 'great setups' that will be affected by HIP58 while it should probably be more affected by HIP40 😂
😂 1
Avatar
I will mention it again though. This limit is only PoC rewards. Data transfer / Data rewards will not be changed and can be rewarded if they happen to be picked up by a hotspot over 100km away. So anyone saying that this will hurts the use of the network, you are severely wrong. Yes it may hurt your 'potential' rewards, and while its valid to be upset, you effect you you will be minimal. Assuming you have atleast 20 hotspots in your immediate surrounding hex areas you will be more likely to receive and being rewarded from those beacons, instead of some rando hotspot that is OVER 100km away taking that last witness slot for that beacon that literally just happened in the hex next to yours. For those that do not know, there is a limit to how many hotspots can witness a beacon, and they are randomly selected. Setting this limit imo, increases your chances of getting selected to witness a beacon that actually happened close to you. Why would I want some rando in another town getting my beacon rewards, I want to give them to my local homies. * For those in "Lone Wolf" territory, with way less in the surrounding area then I mentioned above.. Yes you will stop seeing that 'omg look at this!' of witnessing a hotspot over 100km and being rewarded for it. But lone wolfs have always had to deal with low rewards because the nature of what PoC is. The solution has been, and always will be, to add more hotspots to around you in other hexes to create that PoC. (edited)
👍 1
📌 1
👎 1
Avatar
Just found out about HIP 58 and it’s UTTER NONSENSE. We reach 145km easy in Europe without any modifications or cheating.
facepalm 1
00:17
Why should we be penalized??
00:17
I thought the limit would be 200km
Avatar
Avatar
Technoking
Why should we be penalized??
facepalm
00:17
Please read what I just posted above. My answer to you is there.
Avatar
Avatar
Fizzy
Please read what I just posted above. My answer to you is there.
I mean, if those witnesses from far away are substituted with witnesses close by, that’s ok - assuming the reward is the same. But it sounded like if you make a witness from >100km it would just have been considered invalid and you would not have earned for it, which is incredibly annoying given the shitty state of the network and rewards
Avatar
Avatar
Technoking
I mean, if those witnesses from far away are substituted with witnesses close by, that’s ok - assuming the reward is the same. But it sounded like if you make a witness from >100km it would just have been considered invalid and you would not have earned for it, which is incredibly annoying given the shitty state of the network and rewards
Both of those statements are not wrong. What if you witnessing that beacon from 100KM away because you happen to be lucky, made someone that was right next to the beacon miss out because they were unlucky. Even though they were right next to it, is that fair? I am not saying that's for sure 100% of the time going to be the situation, but its more likely. (edited)
Fizzy pinned a message to this channel. 04/08/2022 12:27 AM
Avatar
Bullshit update, my best hotspot 1,5-2,2 HNT / Day has one witness @ 110KM , before fucking with the blockchain i would like more stability first. It’s a mess now
Avatar
Avatar
dj013
Bullshit update, my best hotspot 1,5-2,2 HNT / Day has one witness @ 110KM , before fucking with the blockchain i would like more stability first. It’s a mess now
Yeah that’s kind of my point. Just limit >200km but think about the rest first, the network is a shitshow
🙌 1
👎 1
Avatar
Avatar
dj013
Bullshit update, my best hotspot 1,5-2,2 HNT / Day has one witness @ 110KM , before fucking with the blockchain i would like more stability first. It’s a mess now
Sounds more like a lone wolf that needs more hotspots in the immediate area.
Avatar
Right, stop fucking with useless updates. Now full focus on the lite update and stability!!
Avatar
Avatar
dj013
Right, stop fucking with useless updates. Now full focus on the lite update and stability!!
There's no need for your harsh language in here. People can hear your opinions without it.
Avatar
Avatar
Fizzy
There's no need for your harsh language in here. People can hear your opinions without it.
Is that ‘harsh language’ come on, everybody is waiting for the lite miner update. Brands have the update ready but implementation awaits. we need stability now. I have 19 hotspots in NL and only a few witness spots >100KM. I have real high placed hotspots and now have to be punished for 10 witnessed beacons >100KM. Useless update, stability is the real problem helium suffers now
Avatar
Avatar
Fizzy
Sounds more like a lone wolf that needs more hotspots in the immediate area.
Lone wolf ???
00:54
00:55
Would not say that, this is a Kerlink setup with a 6dBi antenna on a standard 4G connection so no cheating whatsoever. I would not be allowed the one >100KM witness ???? (edited)
00:59
This one witnesses 2 beacons >100KM is that a serious problem ? Do i cheat ? NO this is a fully legal setup Kerlink / 6dBi
01:00
This proposed update makes no sense and punishes fully legal setups while the entire network is becoming more and more unstable. First things first !
👎 1
facepalm 1
Avatar
Avatar
dj013
This one witnesses 2 beacons >100KM is that a serious problem ? Do i cheat ? NO this is a fully legal setup Kerlink / 6dBi
That one has 12 witness events > 100k and 1 witness event > 150k in 60 days. What exactly is the problem with the activation of this chain var?
👍 2
Avatar
That it’s useless, we need stability now
Avatar
They are not mutually exclusive. The activation of this thing takes 3 minutes tops.
👆 1
Avatar
Avatar
groot
They are not mutually exclusive. The activation of this thing takes 3 minutes tops.
If they can't do it in 2 minutes, I demand they change it to 200km.
😆 1
Avatar
Avatar
Fizzy
If they can't do it in 2 minutes, I demand they change it to 200km.
I'll let them know to have the multi sig keys ready so they can do it in under 2 🙃
Avatar
Avatar
groot
They are not mutually exclusive. The activation of this thing takes 3 minutes tops.
Yep, the lite hotspot HIP update was also ready to go…
👎 1
Avatar
I demand for it to be changed to above 100 km at least 200. This is totally unfair for people who live in rural areas
👎 1
Avatar
Avatar
KingNeme
I demand for it to be changed to above 100 km at least 200. This is totally unfair for people who live in rural areas
Show me an address you think will be affected unfairly
Avatar
Avatar
KingNeme
I demand for it to be changed to above 100 km at least 200. This is totally unfair for people who live in rural areas
Then vote No
Avatar
I had to build a network myself and some of my hotspots l placed live thanks to distant connections because they are up in a mountain
👍 1
01:10
100km does not mean spoofer
Avatar
Avatar
Nian
Then vote No
I did but people seem to think that 100km = spoof (edited)
👎 1
01:10
Reality is that i connect to 130/200km away hotspots in middle italy
Avatar
Avatar
KingNeme
I demand for it to be changed to above 100 km at least 200. This is totally unfair for people who live in rural areas
If the hex is @ 0,5 then STOP placing more hotspots
Avatar
The hex is at 1, it's a regular hotspot
Avatar
Avatar
KingNeme
I did but people seem to think that 100km = spoof (edited)
Then we will follow what people think! As simple as that
Avatar
I have hotspots in rural earea’s tha witness >100KM hotspots
Avatar
I live in a virgin area and had to spend a ton of money to build the network around me. Outside connections are more than welcome for me and for everyone else who lives in rural areas, mountains etc
Avatar
If you don't trust me with the address you can either DM me or I can give you the query for the ETL yourself?
Avatar
Avatar
dj013
I have hotspots in rural earea’s tha witness >100KM hotspots
That's the reality here. It can happen. Doesn't mean spoofing
Avatar
Avatar
dj013
This one witnesses 2 beacons >100KM is that a serious problem ? Do i cheat ? NO this is a fully legal setup Kerlink / 6dBi
Is that proper hotpink tarpir?
01:13
Or something
Avatar
Avatar
groot
If you don't trust me with the address you can either DM me or I can give you the query for the ETL yourself?
Query? Anyways yeah, didn't like the idea to share my address here. If there is another way I can prove it, let's do it
Avatar
Avatar
Ghost
Is that proper hotpink tarpir?
Yep
Avatar
Avatar
dj013
Yep
Is that your hotspot?
01:14
Or someone else
Avatar
Very rural and before the network trouble it witnessed > 150KM
Avatar
Avatar
Ghost
Is that your hotspot?
Mine
Avatar
Rodinconnect?
Avatar
Avatar
Ghost
Rodinconnect?
Rodin owner is part of our company
Avatar
How you mean
01:15
Part of your company
Avatar
He is shareholder
Avatar
Avatar
dj013
Very rural and before the network trouble it witnessed > 150KM
Just once, in 60 days... When did the network trouble start? a year ago? Let's run with that, 7879 witness events, 12 above 100k, 1 above 150k EVER.
👆 1
Avatar
What company if I might ask?
Avatar
HE networks
Avatar
So the one that did illegal installs on telecom sites
Avatar
Avatar
groot
Just once, in 60 days... When did the network trouble start? a year ago? Let's run with that, 7879 witness events, 12 above 100k, 1 above 150k EVER.
It witnesses more BUT a lot are turned down, even England
Avatar
Avatar
Ghost
So the one that did illegal installs on telecom sites
No it’s rented
Avatar
Not rented for 868mhz
Avatar
Avatar
dj013
It witnesses more BUT a lot are turned down, even England
It didn't, I ran it over the last 1500 days.
Avatar
It's rented for point to point connection
Avatar
I don't know what's going on with your rssi/snr but that band is wide.
Avatar
Avatar
dj013
This one witnesses 2 beacons >100KM is that a serious problem ? Do i cheat ? NO this is a fully legal setup Kerlink / 6dBi
You are not providing true coverage, no one can hear you
Avatar
Avatar
dj013
No it’s rented
Kuiterman is also a person you probably know (edited)
Avatar
Avatar
Ghost
It's rented for point to point connection
Don’t know, it was rented is what he says
Avatar
Avatar
Ghost
Kuiterman is also a person you probably know (edited)
No no clue
Avatar
Avatar
groot
I don't know what's going on with your rssi/snr but that band is wide.
Is standard Kerlink
01:21
Nothing wrong, just kerlink-> antenna
Avatar
Avatar
groot
I don't know what's going on with your rssi/snr but that band is wide.
I have a kerlink too. and the rssi always looks different then the standard bobcat etc, if you want to compare: Brief Basil Liger
Avatar
Avatar
sendross
I have a kerlink too. and the rssi always looks different then the standard bobcat etc, if you want to compare: Brief Basil Liger
Avatar
Avatar
groot
Click to see attachment 🖼️
where do you make this graphs?:)
Avatar
DeWi ETL.
✊ 2
👍 1
Avatar
Marin Stoyanov 04/08/2022 1:29 AM
Hello from Bulgaria, by accepting the limit of 100 km, you will fail the main idea of ​​the network! I can give you a number of reasons for this! It is better to consider how to limit the fraud itself of incentivize new Hotspot placements!
👍 5
👎 1
Avatar
Avatar
groot
I don't know what's going on with your rssi/snr but that band is wide.
And the hotspot transmits a lot of data packets for the helium network so it functions well
Avatar
Avatar
groot
I don't know what's going on with your rssi/snr but that band is wide.
You mean the majority of RSSI being around -118 ? Kerlink don't seem to be reporting the RSSIS, only the RSSIC
Avatar
Avatar
ricopt5
You mean the majority of RSSI being around -118 ? Kerlink don't seem to be reporting the RSSIS, only the RSSIC
I mean the difference between the 10th and 90th percentile
Avatar
Avatar
groot
I mean the difference between the 10th and 90th percentile
Which one is the 10th and the 90th? Both are the same color 😅 I assume the 10th is the one around -102?
Avatar
Avatar
ricopt5
Which one is the 10th and the 90th? Both are the same color 😅 I assume the 10th is the one around -102?
By design 😉 The 10th percentile the lower one, the higher one is the 90th percentile.
Avatar
Avatar
Marin Stoyanov
Hello from Bulgaria, by accepting the limit of 100 km, you will fail the main idea of ​​the network! I can give you a number of reasons for this! It is better to consider how to limit the fraud itself of incentivize new Hotspot placements!
Please elaborate. Truth be told, I have yet to hear a valid reason why it should be anything more than 50 km. I am excited to hear your thoughts on this. Please keep in mind that the network does not exist for PoC while you write out your 'number of reasons'. It only exists to move sensor data. The floor is yours...
Avatar
Dance, little sister 😄
Avatar
Avatar
Dhene
Dance, little sister 😄
In my house it is "dance monkey, dance". But yours is more acceptable to use with strangers. With my closest friends it would be "dance mother****er, dance"; definitely not sensitive to others. (edited)
Avatar
Avatar
KeithR
Please elaborate. Truth be told, I have yet to hear a valid reason why it should be anything more than 50 km. I am excited to hear your thoughts on this. Please keep in mind that the network does not exist for PoC while you write out your 'number of reasons'. It only exists to move sensor data. The floor is yours...
If you make make the limit too close you run the risk that no one will place new hotspots outside of the city. About the truth: I think that at least 80% don't give anything about the network and will just scrap their hotpot the moment they aren't earning tokens anymore.
👎 1
Avatar
If you see how little people turn off their GPU rig even though they're paying through the nose for electricity I seriously doubt anyone is going to shut down their hotspot which has almost zero upkeep cost. They might not replace it when it breaks down, but turn it off, I doubt it. (edited)
Avatar
Avatar
sendross
If you make make the limit too close you run the risk that no one will place new hotspots outside of the city. About the truth: I think that at least 80% don't give anything about the network and will just scrap their hotpot the moment they aren't earning tokens anymore.
As a person with hotspots on the outskirts of my city, I am fine with it. The point of the hotspot is to be an onramp for sensor data. While I won't be getting Lime bikes driving by my hotspot, if the farmer down the street tags his cows, I am getting all of them. Mostly 2-5 acre properties out here. I am hoping for garden sensors and tractor trackers; again, I will get them all. My hotspots covered 75% of two very spread out cities down in California until the density tripled in the last year. 50km between hotspots is way more than enough. But I like that they picked 100km to be generous. I also have plenty of hotspots in commercial zones; there ,10 km would be fine to get what I expect.
💯 1
Avatar
Avatar
groot
If you see how little people turn off their GPU rig even though they're paying through the nose for electricity I seriously doubt anyone is going to shut down their hotspot which has almost zero upkeep cost. They might not replace it when it breaks down, but turn it off, I doubt it. (edited)
I look forward to when folks start bagging out; I will be there to buy in an effort to consolidate. But I totally agree with you, it is all bluster. The ROI on a hotspot is still in the completely insane range. "Good" business ROI is three years on hardware.
💯 1
Avatar
My personal hotspot actually covers 8000 square kilometers. I have witnesses north, south, west, and a little to the east. It is ridiculous. I have one hotspot that I get sometimes that is >100km. Since I live in a slightly hilly area, I put it 120' up in my tree to ensure I covered the 5 km around me.
02:17
100 km is hella generous. (edited)
Avatar
Avatar
KeithR
As a person with hotspots on the outskirts of my city, I am fine with it. The point of the hotspot is to be an onramp for sensor data. While I won't be getting Lime bikes driving by my hotspot, if the farmer down the street tags his cows, I am getting all of them. Mostly 2-5 acre properties out here. I am hoping for garden sensors and tractor trackers; again, I will get them all. My hotspots covered 75% of two very spread out cities down in California until the density tripled in the last year. 50km between hotspots is way more than enough. But I like that they picked 100km to be generous. I also have plenty of hotspots in commercial zones; there ,10 km would be fine to get what I expect.
Sir im not trying to offend you in any way. I also voted for the 100km cap. Im just wondering if "POC" is only used for proving "usable coverage" or also to stimulate someone to setup a hotspot in a remote location to create "real coverage" on that remote location. And get some rewards for doing so. (edited)
Avatar
PoC is only to solve the 'chicken-or-the-egg' problem and nothing more. It is a subsidy to reward patience. That is, profits for moving sensor data will not be coming any time soon. (edited)
💯 1
Avatar
Avatar
groot
By design 😉 The 10th percentile the lower one, the higher one is the 90th percentile.
Ah yes, I wrote the other way around. What I said wouldn't actually make sense. But I figure that the hotspot is in a place with high noise, which makes signals with good power, be below the noise floor (negative snr)
Avatar
Avatar
ricopt5
Ah yes, I wrote the other way around. What I said wouldn't actually make sense. But I figure that the hotspot is in a place with high noise, which makes signals with good power, be below the noise floor (negative snr)
It's just that they normally have a much smaller band between the 10th and 90th percentile, but I don't know many high noise hotspots to compare it to.
Avatar
PoC limit for the 5G hotspots is going to be on the order of about 120 feet. I can't wait for that flip out. (edited)
😆 1
Avatar
Avatar
KeithR
PoC limit for the 5G hotspots is going to be on the order of about 120 feet. I can't wait for that flip out. (edited)
I'm going to write a hip to limit that to 100 ft just to piss you off /s
👍 1
😂 1
Avatar
Avatar
KeithR
Please elaborate. Truth be told, I have yet to hear a valid reason why it should be anything more than 50 km. I am excited to hear your thoughts on this. Please keep in mind that the network does not exist for PoC while you write out your 'number of reasons'. It only exists to move sensor data. The floor is yours...
Marin Stoyanov 04/08/2022 2:24 AM
For example: the network is intended not only for large cities, but also for small settlements. In small settlements the resolution is much higher, which requires a smaller number of users. If we have a small settlement at a distance of 101 km from a big city, it will see one, maximum two witnesses from its settlement. And those from the big city will see the witnesses only in it who have bad odds ..
Avatar
Avatar
Marin Stoyanov
For example: the network is intended not only for large cities, but also for small settlements. In small settlements the resolution is much higher, which requires a smaller number of users. If we have a small settlement at a distance of 101 km from a big city, it will see one, maximum two witnesses from its settlement. And those from the big city will see the witnesses only in it who have bad odds ..
The hotspots in your small settlement are not going to get any sensor data from the city. Getting PoC from big city hotspots should not be expected.
👆 1
02:28
The closest thing to a valid argument for greater than 50 km are the hotspots that are covering the highways between cities; providing onramps for tractor trailer tracker data (alliteration completely intended). And like I said, I like that they went with 100km. It just means that hotspots need to be no more than 90 km from each other. Awesome.
02:30
Get all those wasted hotspots in the big city to spread out.
02:31
Call your local Pirate Radio DAO member and let them know you have a hotspot to contribute to a voyage.
🏴‍☠️ 1
🤘 1
Avatar
Avatar
KeithR
The hotspots in your small settlement are not going to get any sensor data from the city. Getting PoC from big city hotspots should not be expected.
But why would you setup a hotspot in a small settlement if it can not do poc with the only other hotspots more then 100km?
Avatar
Avatar
sendross
But why would you setup a hotspot in a small settlement if it can not do poc with the only other hotspots more then 100km?
Just means you need to set up more than one and rake in those rewards
👍 3
Avatar
Avatar
groot
Just means you need to set up more than one and rake in those rewards
exactly. But that means a coordinated setup. Not just have 1 for fun and join the network and just created some real coverage. but 19 hotpots in 1 hex do get rewards and all cover the same area.
Avatar
Avatar
groot
Just means you need to set up more than one and rake in those rewards
I think it is seven hotspots that are all yours that all see each other is the maximum earn you can accomplish without cannibalizing your own profits. Six witnesses. (edited)
Avatar
I do not see the meaning of this plan, all my witnesses are from 10-200 km, gamers will work again regardless of the distance. And the meaning of this project certainly loses on what would be the goal.
Avatar
Yes gamers will simply pare their fake data down to below 100 km. But this will cause them not to earn as many tokens while it takes the system the time to identify them as gamers and add them to the denylist. That's the strategy. And at 100 km, we the legit hotspots will suffer very little pain. (edited)
👍 2
Avatar
Avatar
KeithR
Yes gamers will simply pare their fake data down to below 100 km. But this will cause them not to earn as many tokens while it takes the system the time to identify them as gamers and add them to the denylist. That's the strategy. And at 100 km, we the legit hotspots will suffer very little pain. (edited)
I hope it wont make it harder to spot them..
👍 1
Avatar
In fact, we will likely benefit since all the the tokens that the gamers are stealing from us will be in the rewards pot. (edited)
💯 1
Avatar
Avatar
sendross
I hope it wont make it harder to spot them..
The distance is not what is used to identify them as gamers. They are just using large distances to maximize their thievery.
👆 1
Avatar
At the moment you receive a beacon you don't know the distance so you can't know if it is going to be 125 or 100km. They can either shut off their remote packet forwarders (which is what we want) or keep getting invalids, either way, they lose.
Avatar
Avatar
KeithR
The distance is not what is used to identify them as gamers. They are just using large distances to maximize their thievery.
yes i know. But i am no expert in this but i can see a gamer now because a lot of them are obvious.
Avatar
Avatar
groot
At the moment you receive a beacon you don't know the distance so you can't know if it is going to be 125 or 100km. They can either shut off their remote packet forwarders (which is what we want) or keep getting invalids, either way, they lose.
Invalids are also not good for us, they take away a valid witness from us (edited)
Avatar
I really am surprised that people are flipping out about this. Let's not forget, these gamers are completely stealing from us. They are robbing us blind right now. We legit hotspots are not making the maximum PoC rewards for which we are eligible. Because they are fucking us over. Every effort to stop them from their immoral behavior should be vociferously supported.
☝️ 2
Avatar
Deleted User 04/08/2022 2:50 AM
i voted against !
02:51
this kills al my great setups
Avatar
Avatar
Deleted User
this kills al my great setups
Not a "great" set up if this HIP is killing it.
💯 1
👆 1
Avatar
Deleted User 04/08/2022 2:51 AM
and to be honest it will not solve gamers as the thing that is now going on is a re edit of middleman ( what's 2 years old )
Avatar
Avatar
Dhene
Invalids are also not good for us, they take away a valid witness from us (edited)
If you are the beaconer, who cares as long as the largest portion remains valid. If you are the witness you actually get more rewards?
Avatar
Avatar
KeithR
I really am surprised that people are flipping out about this. Let's not forget, these gamers are completely stealing from us. They are robbing us blind right now. We legit hotspots are not making the maximum PoC rewards for which we are eligible. Because they are fucking us over. Every effort to stop them from their immoral behavior should be vociferously supported.
the people who are flipping or voting against are probably the gamers 😄
Avatar
Avatar
KeithR
Not a "great" set up if this HIP is killing it.
Deleted User 04/08/2022 2:51 AM
sure it does ! i Have locationbs on firetowers witch i rent on seaside and i easy get more then 100 Km without any cheat stuff with my panels !
👎 1
Avatar
Avatar
Deleted User
sure it does ! i Have locationbs on firetowers witch i rent on seaside and i easy get more then 100 Km without any cheat stuff with my panels !
Throw me an address and we'll see how much it will hurt you (or wait until I get someone to make it public) (edited)
Avatar
Avatar
Dhene
the people who are flipping or voting against are probably the gamers 😄
I wish there was a way to calculate the correlation of bluster with gaming.
💯 1
Avatar
After this HIP, ban the NO voters
👎 1
Avatar
Avatar
groot
Throw me an address and we'll see how much it will hurt you (or wait until I get someone to make it public) (edited)
Deleted User 04/08/2022 2:52 AM
and risk deny list ? no thx ... 🙂
🤣 1
Avatar
Avatar
Deleted User
sure it does ! i Have locationbs on firetowers witch i rent on seaside and i easy get more then 100 Km without any cheat stuff with my panels !
You will not be getting data from sensors at that distance whatsoever.
Avatar
Deleted User 04/08/2022 2:52 AM
there is not even data exept from mappers lol
02:53
look to world cities where there is full coverage already and tell me how much data ( not mappers ) you see ..
Avatar
A great setup is one that is providing coverage for the sensors that are forthcoming.
👆 1
💯 1
Avatar
Deleted User 04/08/2022 2:53 AM
many forget helium encouraged us to invest a lot
02:53
so yeah i rented big towers
Avatar
Avatar
Deleted User
and risk deny list ? no thx ... 🙂
You can probably look it up later today or maybe tomorrow yourself. But since you've already made up your mind without looking at the data that probably won't matter.
Avatar
Deleted User 04/08/2022 2:53 AM
bought expensive big antenna's and so on
Avatar
The chicken or egg problem has only recently been solved well enough for sensor companies to be created, designed, and manufactured. (edited)
Avatar
Deleted User 04/08/2022 2:54 AM
the key problem is the bad network full of holes nothing more
👎 1
02:54
you need to admit this
02:55
@groot now even those lcoations don't witness anymore for a week since the P2P issues and more 😉 so hard to compare and show you the adress ...
02:55
as it's not relevant to check
Avatar
Full of what holes? Gaps in the coverage? Or security holes in the brand new concept of PoC?
Avatar
Deleted User 04/08/2022 2:55 AM
security holes
Avatar
Siege Monkey 04/08/2022 2:55 AM
Love how it takes like 30d for some americans to make 1 HNT
Avatar
Deleted User 04/08/2022 2:55 AM
imagine you run a company and after 3 years the door is still open ...
Avatar
Avatar
Deleted User
@groot now even those lcoations don't witness anymore for a week since the P2P issues and more 😉 so hard to compare and show you the adress ...
It is relevant because it checks the last 60 days and you wouldn't be the first to greatly overestimate your hotspots abilities and exaggerate the impact of hip58
💯 1
Avatar
Deleted User 04/08/2022 2:56 AM
also it's verry easy to edit middleman in a new version as it's 2 years old
02:56
what will happen is that they will concentrate on new system
02:56
and edit better and more ..
02:56
it's a little work to replace PF 🙂
Avatar
We will figure out another HIP to curtail their thievery.
👍 1
Avatar
Deleted User 04/08/2022 2:57 AM
maybe start ban whole china
facepalm 1
Avatar
And another and another
Avatar
Deleted User 04/08/2022 2:57 AM
and a lot will be better
02:57
crypto is illegal there
02:57
so why let them mine ?
Avatar
A blunt approach but yes it would seem to curtail some bad behavior. (edited)
Avatar
Deleted User 04/08/2022 2:57 AM
those are the pain in the ass not the packet forwarders
02:58
this can't be a hip ? ban china
02:58
also if you ban deeper, you need to ban whole syncrobit imo
Avatar
You can certainly write it up. Then we will argue about it in your discord channel. Then if there is enough interest, we will get to vote. Decentralization is amazing. (edited)
Avatar
Deleted User 04/08/2022 2:59 AM
and what with great setups in small villages that are now hitting hotspots far away ?
02:59
also gone with hip58 and 100 KM ?
02:59
advantage is hight on those locations
02:59
and great line of sight
Avatar
Avatar
Deleted User
and what with great setups in small villages that are now hitting hotspots far away ?
They won't mind about the reduction of >100 km witnessing if they are indeed a great setup. Since a great set up would be providing coverage in the area for sensor data and that will not be curtailed by distance.
Avatar
Deleted User 04/08/2022 3:00 AM
imagine a city with maybne 2 or 3 hotspots but you are on 75 meter pole or tower ...
03:00
nowdays you do great as you hit far and give great coverage
Avatar
Or a hotspot 120' up in a tree. (edited)
Avatar
Deleted User 04/08/2022 3:00 AM
with hip58 will be gone ..
Avatar
azblazer007 04/08/2022 3:00 AM
So does this hurt my witnesses from far away if I read it right? Sorry just woke up and read
Avatar
Deleted User 04/08/2022 3:01 AM
the problem of this network is it constantly changing bahaviour
👍 1
03:01
it's verry hard to get 1 month stable ....
Avatar
It is a brand new concept.. Of course it is changing. But a great setup has always been the same. (edited)
Avatar
Deleted User 04/08/2022 3:01 AM
brand new ?
Avatar
Again, look up if you hit 100k+ anyway, many in here hit it once because some cheating witness stuffer got their beacon and they blindly assume that their setup is godlike. Well, 100k+ is sparse, very sparse.
Avatar
Deleted User 04/08/2022 3:01 AM
ever heard about a plan and road ?
03:01
sorry but P2P problems could be avoid
03:01
by faster placed extra seeds etc
03:02
it's like you run a restaurant have already 100 reservations , you know and see it will full house but only have food for 40 ppl ...
Avatar
Avatar
Dhene
the people who are flipping or voting against are probably the gamers 😄
Come and check out my spots all legit, this update is useless and we should stop HIP updates untill the network itself is stable again
👎 1
Avatar
Avatar
groot
Again, look up if you hit 100k+ anyway, many in here hit it once because some cheating witness stuffer got their beacon and they blindly assume that their setup is godlike. Well, 100k+ is sparse, very sparse.
Deleted User 04/08/2022 3:02 AM
i hit many from 100 Km away 🙂
Avatar
Repeat after me, "The network does not exist to give you PoC rewards." and again. and again.
👆 1
💯 1
Avatar
Avatar
KeithR
Repeat after me, "The network does not exist to give you PoC rewards." and again. and again.
Deleted User 04/08/2022 3:02 AM
at least for 2-3 years yes
Avatar
Avatar
Deleted User
i hit many from 100 Km away 🙂
Sure you do, no proof though.
Avatar
Deleted User 04/08/2022 3:03 AM
do you really think people will invest and plkace hotspots for peanuts ?
👍 1
Avatar
That is not its purpose.
Avatar
Avatar
KeithR
Repeat after me, "The network does not exist to give you PoC rewards." and again. and again.
It does not exist for poc rewards, But it exist because if it. if you take it away it wont grow anymore. (edited)
👎 1
Avatar
Hobbyists would. Mass adoption, no. PoC subsidy was a brilliant approach to provide an economic incentive. There is no promise of continued rewards. There is no promise that the reward structure will not change. And in this case, the reason we have to change it is because the immoral fucks that keep stealing from us.
Avatar
Deleted User 04/08/2022 3:05 AM
well
03:05
what will happen
03:05
a lot will put hotspot off
😂 3
👎 1
Avatar
No they won't
Avatar
Deleted User 04/08/2022 3:06 AM
you really think you give coverage xwith your hotspot beside tv desk
Avatar
That is not a great hotspot.
03:06
And that hotspot is not getting 100 km witnesses
Avatar
Avatar
Deleted User
a lot will put hotspot off
I would like that. More rewards for the rest of us
Avatar
Deleted User 04/08/2022 3:06 AM
i rent towers and poles 30 to 100 meters
03:06
that are placements
Avatar
You overspent
03:06
But thank you for covering the wide open plains.
Avatar
Deleted User 04/08/2022 3:06 AM
but you think i will keep going on if it cost me more then i earn ?
👍 1
Avatar
Avatar
KeithR
You overspent
but he provides real coverage that way right?
👍 1
Avatar
Deleted User 04/08/2022 3:06 AM
i'm not a cheap indian that works for free
🤨 1
Avatar
Previous one that claimed this had 12 witnesses in the last 60 days that reached beyond 100k, out of 8000 (edited)
Avatar
Deleted User 04/08/2022 3:07 AM
the thing is that not even half now anything about LORA at all
03:07
and just jumped out of FOMO
03:07
and if you know what you do you place them high as possible with great line of sight
Avatar
Avatar
sendross
but he provides real coverage that way right?
He certainly does. And that definition is now a radius of 100km .
Avatar
Deleted User 04/08/2022 3:07 AM
don't forget to run a city like london you only need 50 hotspots 😉
03:08
look to signfox france what happend
03:08
and i can keep going on ...
Avatar
Disagree. too many shadows created by buildings and hills.
Avatar
Avatar
KeithR
He certainly does. And that definition is now a radius of 100km .
Yes, For me 100 is nice. but shouldnt be less beacuse it would hurt expansion (edited)
Avatar
Deleted User 04/08/2022 3:08 AM
also helium encouraged people to great setups
👎 1
Avatar
Avatar
sendross
Yes, For me 100 is nice. but shouldnt be less beacuse it would hurt expansion (edited)
50 km would encourage more hotspots.
Avatar
Deleted User 04/08/2022 3:09 AM
btw hard to show now my 100 Km witnesses as we all know last weeks its shit 🙂
03:09
so not that many in the list now offcourse
Avatar
Avatar
Deleted User
btw hard to show now my 100 Km witnesses as we all know last weeks its shit 🙂
Fine, I'll go back 365 days.
Avatar
Avatar
Deleted User
btw hard to show now my 100 Km witnesses as we all know last weeks its shit 🙂
groot can see all time
Avatar
April 19th, er May 1 can't come soon enough.
😅 1
Avatar
Avatar
sendross
groot can see all time
So can you, the magic of block chain 🙂
Avatar
Deleted User 04/08/2022 3:10 AM
for me it looks more and more then a nice story and much blabla
03:10
i even talked to companies and they stay with their private iot networks
03:10
helium is to limlited for them ....
03:10
maybe in USA it's different
Avatar
Avatar
groot
So can you, the magic of block chain 🙂
Well.. I wish. Im not able to login to the https://etl.dewi.org/ I would really like to see and analyze all stats:)
Avatar
Deleted User 04/08/2022 3:10 AM
but here belgium and netherlands there is full coverage already long time by many others
03:11
even if helium reduce price, the big ones will do the same
Avatar
Avatar
sendross
Well.. I wish. Im not able to login to the https://etl.dewi.org/ I would really like to see and analyze all stats:)
There is some sort of step by step in #data-analysis including what to do when it doesn't work.
Avatar
Avatar
groot
There is some sort of step by step in #data-analysis including what to do when it doesn't work.
Ow! ill take a look then:)
Avatar
I'm wondering if the network goes from PoC to Data Transfer, how many IoT devices are going to use it? Firstly, they have to pay to use the network, secondly the hotspots are not going to be online when only a few devices are sending data over it.
Avatar
Deleted User 04/08/2022 3:12 AM
https://explorer.helium.com/hotspots/11WnEyASXfYo47UdxT7FS5KE4QSP5t4fZaV3LyQ1GV2CnyLzwKD this one was witness full on till last week ... check now it's dead ...
Helium Explorer is a Block Explorer and Analytics Platform for Helium, a decentralized wireless connectivity platform
03:12
nothing changed .... so what i can say ? network ... nothing more
03:12
30 meter firetower on seaside
03:12
panel to other side of sea
03:12
i reached the whole region
03:12
check now
03:12
2 witnesses ....
03:13
you find this normal ? me not
03:13
someone with his hotspot on tv desk even earn more last week
Avatar
Avatar
Dhene
I'm wondering if the network goes from PoC to Data Transfer, how many IoT devices are going to use it? Firstly, they have to pay to use the network, secondly the hotspots are not going to be online when only a few devices are sending data over it.
Hotspot owners will have ROI'd by then and thus the cost to keep the hotspot up will be nearly zero. And I suspect most people's sensor purchase will be from someone providing the portal to the data and thus that is who will be paying for the DCs. The customer would just byu a garden sensor that comes with 3 years of data service (and then $5 a year thereafter).
Avatar
Deleted User 04/08/2022 3:13 AM
then you rent such top locations, have great panels or sectors ( as omni did not worked there ! )
Avatar
12 at 100k+ in the last 60 days so you have nothing to worry about.
Avatar
Avatar
Deleted User
https://explorer.helium.com/hotspots/11WnEyASXfYo47UdxT7FS5KE4QSP5t4fZaV3LyQ1GV2CnyLzwKD this one was witness full on till last week ... check now it's dead ...
#hip-55-validator-challenges Will fix that
💯 1
Avatar
Deleted User 04/08/2022 3:14 AM
yeah and check now
03:14
it's fully dead
Avatar
Avatar
groot
12 at 100k+ in the last 60 days so you have nothing to worry about.
Wow, argument undermined with a single chart!
🤓 1
😍 1
Avatar
Avatar
groot
12 at 100k+ in the last 60 days so you have nothing to worry about.
Ahem... Cum graph? 😂
Avatar
Avatar
groot
There is some sort of step by step in #data-analysis including what to do when it doesn't work.
thanks it works now:)
Avatar
Avatar
KeithR
50 km would encourage more hotspots.
But is a waste of materials and power so not sustainable
👎 1
Avatar
Avatar
ricopt5
Ahem... Cum graph? 😂
cumulative graph?
Avatar
Avatar
groot
cumulative graph?
Yeah, I know what it means. I just found the name... interesting (I'm immature, I know 😅 )
😂 1
Avatar
Maybe i'll have to change that before it goes public, you dirty mind 😉
😂 1
Avatar
Avatar
dj013
But is a waste of materials and power so not sustainable
You will not be hearing sensor data from more than 50 km.
03:16
These things are running on watch batteries. They are little things in the ground. Best case scenario they are on the top of a tractor trailer left behind a grocery store.
03:16
Or wrapped around the neck of a cow or horse or dog.
03:17
Or hanging from a back country skiers backpack.
Avatar
Avatar
KeithR
These things are running on watch batteries. They are little things in the ground. Best case scenario they are on the top of a tractor trailer left behind a grocery store.
No, My sensors run large batteries
Avatar
Such as?
03:18
Please link to the sensor you bought that has a large battery.
Avatar
Deleted User 04/08/2022 3:18 AM
can i dm you another 1 @groot ?
03:18
CO2
03:18
And i use powered current / switching sensors
Avatar
Avatar
groot
sure
Deleted User 04/08/2022 3:19 AM
accept request pls
Avatar
Avatar
dj013
And i use powered current / switching sensors
In that case, the hotspot in the building is going to be picking that up far sooner than it reaches any hotspot 50 km or more away.
Avatar
If there is a hotspot closer yes, but in the field…
03:20
1x Lithium 3.6V, 2700mAh
03:21
I put sensors in power distributors we use in the field
03:22
In NL there’s always a hotspot within 50km but world wide
Avatar
Again, your data will be picked up if heard from greater than 100 km.
03:23
It is the PoC that goes away.
03:23
In your case, the ROI of the hotspot is that it saves you person hours to make the drive out to check the status of the distributors.
Avatar
Avatar
KeithR
Again, your data will be picked up if heard from greater than 100 km.
Thats reverse excusing, if you can transfer that far you should not limit
Avatar
The immoral behavior of the gamers is forcing this HIP.
03:24
And the analytics clearly show that 100 km is more than enough.
Avatar
It’s for me maybe 10 witnesses so won’t be a big deal but it’s unfaire
Avatar
Unfair to whom and why?
03:25
The network does not exist to give you PoC rewards.
💯 1
Avatar
But it works that way (edited)
Avatar
I will invest in the extra hotspots you need; as long as I get a cut of the person hours saved. I totally get your hotspot may not be profitable straight up from DC spend. But time saved will be more than enough. 5 hours saved at $100 an hour to send an expert out? ROI'd. (edited)
Avatar
Avatar
KeithR
In your case, the ROI of the hotspot is that it saves you person hours to make the drive out to check the status of the distributors.
Careful. #rules
Avatar
Deleted User 04/08/2022 3:27 AM
thx @groot for the look up and point of view 🙂 respect
🍻 1
Avatar
Avatar
ricopt5
Careful. #rules
Which rule? Friendly ask, actually. (edited)
Avatar
I really like the idea behind it though and i’m gonna cover areas in NL that don’t have many hotspots. I will not make much poc there but it will help the unroll
Avatar
Avatar
KeithR
Which rule? Friendly ask, actually. (edited)
7th
Avatar
I think that applies to using HNT to calculate ROI. ROI based on DC spend and person hours saved from using LoRaWAN would be allowed by the SEC. It is worked done or work saved. (edited)
03:31
Actually I did mention PoC in that sentence...removed. (edited)
03:33
Goodnight you all.
Avatar
PoC rate!!!!!! weary weary weary Hello, unfortunately the network is not yet in order. I have 12 hotspots and they do not send 3 beacons together in 24 hours. It's a disaster with the network... Thank you
😆 1
Avatar
Deleted User 04/08/2022 3:34 AM
join te club
03:35
50 % of fleet working, other half not 😄
03:35
and funny thing is some of my best places don't do a thing
03:35
you get it ? me don't 🙂
Avatar
I just voted for hip 58, but I wanted to see if it was possible for us to vote too to limit earnings per hotspot! 0.8/1 hnt max if the average is 0.1 hnt it doesn't make sense to have hotspot giving 2/3/10 hnt day. so limiting the distance is important but really limiting the hnt per hotspot might be the most appropriate!
Avatar
Avatar
AB
I just voted for hip 58, but I wanted to see if it was possible for us to vote too to limit earnings per hotspot! 0.8/1 hnt max if the average is 0.1 hnt it doesn't make sense to have hotspot giving 2/3/10 hnt day. so limiting the distance is important but really limiting the hnt per hotspot might be the most appropriate!
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 04/08/2022 4:49 AM
that would need to be a new HIP
Avatar
Avatar
AB
I just voted for hip 58, but I wanted to see if it was possible for us to vote too to limit earnings per hotspot! 0.8/1 hnt max if the average is 0.1 hnt it doesn't make sense to have hotspot giving 2/3/10 hnt day. so limiting the distance is important but really limiting the hnt per hotspot might be the most appropriate!
Deleted User 04/08/2022 4:52 AM
arte you crazy or what ? looks like you want all earnings are equal or what ?
Avatar
Avatar
AB
I just voted for hip 58, but I wanted to see if it was possible for us to vote too to limit earnings per hotspot! 0.8/1 hnt max if the average is 0.1 hnt it doesn't make sense to have hotspot giving 2/3/10 hnt day. so limiting the distance is important but really limiting the hnt per hotspot might be the most appropriate!
No because the ones that earn more are providing more to the network
04:54
Socialism doesn't work and will not give people the incentive to improve their setup
Avatar
I don't want the earnings to be the same.. but I think more than 1 hnt a day does anyone of you have it?? I don't go from 0.4 max max.. and my average goes from 0.1 to 0.3 max 0.4.. practically from 1 hnt day something is not right.. we have people cheating that make 10 hnt a day
Avatar
Avatar
AB
I don't want the earnings to be the same.. but I think more than 1 hnt a day does anyone of you have it?? I don't go from 0.4 max max.. and my average goes from 0.1 to 0.3 max 0.4.. practically from 1 hnt day something is not right.. we have people cheating that make 10 hnt a day
OK so let's think about this, On a good day you make 0.4 The best hotspots with most coverage make about 2hnt ish If you stop them earning more than 1hnt they have lost 50% of their earnings. It's only fair then yours get reduced to 0.2hnt. Top earners usually pay a lot more on setup and rent tower space etc. It's only fair they are rewarded more
Avatar
i understand i said one hnt but it could be 2. but i saw 2 h of conversation with the helium analyst and he says that over 1 hnt is no longer normal
05:07
what is your daily max now?
Avatar
Avatar
AB
i understand i said one hnt but it could be 2. but i saw 2 h of conversation with the helium analyst and he says that over 1 hnt is no longer normal
About 0.7 but I'm still spending to try and get more. I'd like to hit 1hnt per miner. I know it won't happen
Avatar
@Phil2k00 I have all exteriors in the higher areas of my land. and I think it should be limited yes. already here I have a company that will set up 60 thousand hotsopt in towers all over Europe.. even in the highest towers I send you the wallet and they don't exceed 1 hnt! now for me it's already wrong to use the advantage of the towers but ok. it's business.. now in relation to the limit, see the example if they don't exceed 1 hnt a day we better places .. I don't see why they don't limit to 1 hnt per hotsopt.. from that value something is not right
Avatar
The argument that our sensors won't be heard at 100km away is a bit weird. Of course our sensors won't be heard 100km away, but they will be heard 30-40 km's from these's OTG mountain setups, right? So why wouldn't we want people to deploy in these areas? If there's no incentive, we lose that coverage. Just because PoC is 100km away, doesn't mean that sensors won't be close to these hot spots? The next project I want to do with sensors requires sensors in the back woods country, perfect for OTG hot spots.
Avatar
12xTL1Sj2DRYsnKjEaWtT37Ju732s36dUZ2ZaobGP1hMQh4BxFM
Avatar
Thinking that we don't need coverage 30+km's from these hot spots is.... a bit short sighted (pun intended) 😎
😄 1
Avatar
this wallet is all outdoor mounts on towers! how to limit 1 hnt per hotsopt was ideal or less 0.8
Avatar
Avatar
AB
I don't want the earnings to be the same.. but I think more than 1 hnt a day does anyone of you have it?? I don't go from 0.4 max max.. and my average goes from 0.1 to 0.3 max 0.4.. practically from 1 hnt day something is not right.. we have people cheating that make 10 hnt a day
Deleted User 04/08/2022 5:28 AM
yes i have it till last 2 weeks
05:29
tower middle of city , highest in the room on 65 meter
05:29
1 tot 1.4 a day verry easy
05:29
now since last 2 weeks not cause of the shitty network and problems
Avatar
Avatar
AB
@Phil2k00 I have all exteriors in the higher areas of my land. and I think it should be limited yes. already here I have a company that will set up 60 thousand hotsopt in towers all over Europe.. even in the highest towers I send you the wallet and they don't exceed 1 hnt! now for me it's already wrong to use the advantage of the towers but ok. it's business.. now in relation to the limit, see the example if they don't exceed 1 hnt a day we better places .. I don't see why they don't limit to 1 hnt per hotsopt.. from that value something is not right
If they limit to 1hnt then everyone else's rewards must be reduced too. Your rewarded on contribution to the network, if a hotspot is earning 2hnt a day and your earning 0.4 it is 5x more beneficial to the network. If you reduce it to 1hnt he is still 5x more beneficial to the network and should still be rewarded 5x more than you
👎 1
Avatar
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 04/08/2022 6:10 AM
yesterday: Hotspots Above 1 HNT - 140 wouldn't really effect much putting a 1hnt limit in
👆 1
Avatar
@Phil2k00 I didn't mean to reduce the reward but by maximum ceiling
Avatar
Original message was deleted or could not be loaded.
I think you mis understood me, you witness hundreds of beacons a day your more beneficial to the network than if you witness 1 beacon, therfore should be rewarded more, I know other factors come into play but let's just say reward and transmit scales are all at 1
Avatar
Avatar
Phil2k00
I think you mis understood me, you witness hundreds of beacons a day your more beneficial to the network than if you witness 1 beacon, therfore should be rewarded more, I know other factors come into play but let's just say reward and transmit scales are all at 1
OptimusPrime 04/08/2022 6:26 AM
That makes more sense.
Avatar
Whos next?
Avatar
I can't vote, but my location is on the southern California coast of San Diego where my HS happens to shoot up the coast over 100 km in many cases because of the ocean overwater transmission. Why should I be penalized for my proximity when a large percentage of my witnesses are accessed from that distance? (edited)
💯 3
😂 1
06:58
That was close..🤣
😄 1
Avatar
Avatar
Efishnsea
I can't vote, but my location is on the southern California coast of San Diego where my HS happens to shoot up the coast over 100 km in many cases because of the ocean overwater transmission. Why should I be penalized for my proximity when a large percentage of my witnesses are accessed from that distance? (edited)
Lovely Setup dude 🔥
Avatar
Avatar
Efishnsea
I can't vote, but my location is on the southern California coast of San Diego where my HS happens to shoot up the coast over 100 km in many cases because of the ocean overwater transmission. Why should I be penalized for my proximity when a large percentage of my witnesses are accessed from that distance? (edited)
because the network is to provide DATA coverage, not prove who can yell the loudest
👍 4
💯 1
👆 1
Avatar
Avatar
BiggieJohn
because the network is to provide DATA coverage, not prove who can yell the loudest
see r4wk
Avatar
Avatar
Efishnsea
I can't vote, but my location is on the southern California coast of San Diego where my HS happens to shoot up the coast over 100 km in many cases because of the ocean overwater transmission. Why should I be penalized for my proximity when a large percentage of my witnesses are accessed from that distance? (edited)
Care to share the address?
07:04
Nevermind, think I got it.
Avatar
Avatar
groot
Care to share the address?
tiny leather sparrow
Avatar
Avatar
Efishnsea
see r4wk
great, then given your location, you should be passing a ton of data, lots of sensors out there
Avatar
Avatar
BiggieJohn
great, then given your location, you should be passing a ton of data, lots of sensors out there
Is the rest of the network getting rewards for data? or for PoC?
Avatar
Avatar
Efishnsea
tiny leather sparrow
139 out of 1864 witnesses are > 100km in the last 60 days.
Avatar
anchored cargo ships would be cool tho lol-Kind of kidding but would that be possible? (edited)
Avatar
Avatar
belzebut
Is the rest of the network getting rewards for data? or for PoC?
I transmit data every day, every hour
Avatar
Avatar
BiggieJohn
I transmit data every day, every hour
Cool but what's that got to do with the discussion? 99.9% of hotspots earn rewards from PoC.
Avatar
many of you seem confused that the purpose of the network is to prove itself . . .
Avatar
Avatar
BiggieJohn
many of you seem confused that the purpose of the network is to prove itself . . .
That's what we have now and those are the rules we all play by
Avatar
Vote NO.
Avatar
Avatar
TotallyBro
Vote NO.
Avatar
Avatar
belzebut
That's what we have now and those are the rules we all play by
And sadly we will be approaching the end of PoC here quickly. And we are very far from being self sustaining with data alone. Sure feel free to milk PoC until it’s gone but … without a doubt it’ll dry up. Just for some context you’d need to be moving 225,000 DC per day to be the first self sustaining hotspot.
Avatar
roaring20s.eth 04/08/2022 7:42 AM
actual coverage is more important than the proof of coverage
07:42
Whats the current vote at?
Avatar
Avatar
Anthonyra
And sadly we will be approaching the end of PoC here quickly. And we are very far from being self sustaining with data alone. Sure feel free to milk PoC until it’s gone but … without a doubt it’ll dry up. Just for some context you’d need to be moving 225,000 DC per day to be the first self sustaining hotspot.
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 04/08/2022 7:49 AM
Self sustaining hotspot???
😂 1
Avatar
Avatar
roaring20s.eth
actual coverage is more important than the proof of coverage
https://heliumvote.com/ Right, which is why this actual distance for data transfers is not effected. Only Proof of Coverage.
Avatar
If anyone is wondering how their hotspot fares under HIP58: https://etl.dewi.org/public/dashboard/64f73a06-b689-42a5-b510-98bde69cd5fb
❤️‍🔥 6
Avatar
Avatar
groot
If anyone is wondering how their hotspot fares under HIP58: https://etl.dewi.org/public/dashboard/64f73a06-b689-42a5-b510-98bde69cd5fb
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 04/08/2022 8:45 AM
That’s a nice tool NGL…
Avatar
Avatar
groot
If anyone is wondering how their hotspot fares under HIP58: https://etl.dewi.org/public/dashboard/64f73a06-b689-42a5-b510-98bde69cd5fb
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 04/08/2022 8:46 AM
I’m still worried about beacons sent out mainly
Avatar
Avatar
groot
If anyone is wondering how their hotspot fares under HIP58: https://etl.dewi.org/public/dashboard/64f73a06-b689-42a5-b510-98bde69cd5fb
How do I change my YES to a no? That tool just showed me how hard this is going to hit me. My set up that is 120' up in a tree with a 5.8 dbi antenna that covers over 8000 kilometers of area had over 10 witness over 100km. 11 to be exact. 4 of them were over 200 km from a hotspot that was clearly mis-asserted (intentionally). 6 from 3,030.57 km away; clearly either a gamer or a hotspot heading out of town soon. That was out of 43 events in total. Oops I mean 4,302 events. I am really going to feel the missed rewards. /s (edited)
😂 1
Avatar
It's soon to be Proof of Limited Coverage. I would be more worried about the hip where we start shouting down antennas from trees.
Avatar
Avatar
KeithR
How do I change my YES to a no? That tool just showed me how hard this is going to hit me. My set up that is 120' up in a tree with a 5.8 dbi antenna that covers over 8000 kilometers of area had over 10 witness over 100km. 11 to be exact. 4 of them were over 200 km from a hotspot that was clearly mis-asserted (intentionally). 6 from 3,030.57 km away; clearly either a gamer or a hotspot heading out of town soon. That was out of 43 events in total. Oops I mean 4,302 events. I am really going to feel the missed rewards. /s (edited)
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 04/08/2022 8:49 AM
Vote again and pick no
08:49
It'll cancel the yes out
Avatar
Avatar
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
Vote again and pick no
How can I vote Yes twice because I really believe in the HIP?
🤘 1
Avatar
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 04/08/2022 8:49 AM
You can't vote twice for the same result (edited)
Avatar
I am leaving it as a resounding YES.
👍 2
Avatar
Avatar
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
You can't vote twice for the same result (edited)
I think you can vote as many times as you want, but it only counts the very last vote when the voting closes.
👍 1
Avatar
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 04/08/2022 9:02 AM
Yep that's correct
Avatar
Avatar
groot
If anyone is wondering how their hotspot fares under HIP58: https://etl.dewi.org/public/dashboard/64f73a06-b689-42a5-b510-98bde69cd5fb
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 04/08/2022 9:12 AM
Groot doing gods work, thanks 👍
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 pinned a message to this channel. 04/08/2022 9:12 AM
Avatar
Avatar
TotallyBro
Vote NO.
rennieb Hot Spot Summer 04/08/2022 9:24 AM
😂 5
facepalm 4
Avatar
Avatar
rennieb Hot Spot Summer
Click to see attachment 🖼️
RF travels well over water and flat areas. Why punish good setups yet again? This is a disincentive. (edited)
👎 1
Avatar
Avatar
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions)
I’m still worried about beacons sent out mainly
I might make a v2 specially for you🙏
Avatar
Yeah...being punished because I put up a 50-foot Rohn tower near the water. Should have just saved my cash and put it up on the windowsill. Smh at yall.
facepalm 1
09:36
Spoofing needs to be addressed, for sure....but this does not seem to be the right way to go about it.
Avatar
Avatar
TotallyBro
Yeah...being punished because I put up a 50-foot Rohn tower near the water. Should have just saved my cash and put it up on the windowsill. Smh at yall.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/08/2022 9:36 AM
Your hotspot name?
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Your hotspot name?
Lol...I'm at .01 for the 24-hr mark. Occasionally catch a long ass witness.
Avatar
Avatar
TotallyBro
Lol...I'm at .01 for the 24-hr mark. Occasionally catch a long ass witness.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/08/2022 9:40 AM
That has nothing to do with this HIP. Nor is it a hotspot name to prove your claims.
facepalm 1
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
That has nothing to do with this HIP. Nor is it a hotspot name to prove your claims.
Yeah, it does.
facepalm 1
coolstory 1
Avatar
Avatar
TotallyBro
Yeah, it does.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/08/2022 9:42 AM
Do tell... What does the reward variance caused by the current poc interval have to do with this HIP?
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Do tell... What does the reward variance caused by the current poc interval have to do with this HIP?
I'm talking distance, dude. Wtf you on?
Avatar
Avatar
TotallyBro
I'm talking distance, dude. Wtf you on?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/08/2022 9:44 AM
You simply complained about your 24hour rewards.
Avatar
Avatar
TotallyBro
I'm talking distance, dude. Wtf you on?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/08/2022 9:45 AM
It is very clear you are either unwilling or unable to provide data to back up your position
Avatar
Yeah, and geographically, I catch a long ass witness over flat areas and water. It makes my day. But yall trying to take that away.
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/08/2022 9:45 AM
Data talks, bs walks...
facepalm 1
👍 2
Avatar
Avatar
groot
I might make a v2 specially for you🙏
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 04/08/2022 9:45 AM
😄 1
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Data talks, bs walks...
This BS hip needs to take a walk.
😂 2
🤝 2
👎 1
❌ 1
Avatar
Avatar
TotallyBro
This BS hip needs to take a walk.
It might, just not more than 100km 🙊
🤣 5
Avatar
Avatar
groot
It might, just not more than 100km 🙊
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/08/2022 9:49 AM
Ok, now that's funny. Lmao
Avatar
SMASHINGblargharghar 04/08/2022 9:57 AM
Been patiently reading through these posts trying to get an understanding of what this HIP would mean for me as a single hotspot owner with an indoor antenna and not the greatest line of site -- I'm thinking zero effect either way?
09:58
I'm also in an area with lots of hotspots near me if that matters any. Please forgive my ignorance, I'm one of the idiots that jumped in without research and only now am trying to learn (edited)
Avatar
Avatar
SMASHINGblargharghar
Been patiently reading through these posts trying to get an understanding of what this HIP would mean for me as a single hotspot owner with an indoor antenna and not the greatest line of site -- I'm thinking zero effect either way?
Yes, it won't affect you. I mean, it can (probably, maybe, perhaps) increase your rewards by a smidge, but don't count on that (edited)
Avatar
Was wondering how people are gaming it rn to get witnesses over 100km away
Avatar
Avatar
SMASHINGblargharghar
Been patiently reading through these posts trying to get an understanding of what this HIP would mean for me as a single hotspot owner with an indoor antenna and not the greatest line of site -- I'm thinking zero effect either way?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/08/2022 10:13 AM
I think @groot was kind enough to make us a nice tool to check. Let me find it...
Avatar
Avatar
TheJester
Was wondering how people are gaming it rn to get witnesses over 100km away
ALOT
Avatar
Avatar
HitmakerAP
ALOT
But like what was the mechanism use
Avatar
Avatar
TheJester
But like what was the mechanism use
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/08/2022 10:24 AM
Likely metadata alteration.
Avatar
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸 04/08/2022 10:25 AM
Both of my miners currently operate coast to coast in Florida, some going 160km. The expansion area I am working on is south of Orlando, all the way to North of Lake Okeechobee. Reaching to the coastal cities is important to host's rewards while developing the area. I am concerned this HIP will limit the expansion I am working on. (edited)
Avatar
Avatar
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸
Both of my miners currently operate coast to coast in Florida, some going 160km. The expansion area I am working on is south of Orlando, all the way to North of Lake Okeechobee. Reaching to the coastal cities is important to host's rewards while developing the area. I am concerned this HIP will limit the expansion I am working on. (edited)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/08/2022 10:26 AM
Avatar
SMASHINGblargharghar 04/08/2022 10:26 AM
Ty
👍 1
Avatar
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸 04/08/2022 10:27 AM
Thanks, I looked at that tool from an earlier post of yours 😊
👍 1
10:28
Another concern is, are we taking away one of the methods used to manage this discrepancy? Will we be able to catch violators another way?
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Likely metadata alteration.
Is there another way to prevent meta data alteration, it feels like it is a little naive to use distance limit as a hard rule, no?
Avatar
Avatar
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸
Another concern is, are we taking away one of the methods used to manage this discrepancy? Will we be able to catch violators another way?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/08/2022 10:33 AM
The data will still be there to catch cheaters 🙂
Avatar
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸 04/08/2022 10:34 AM
Overall the whole idea of restricting expansion of something we are trying to expand seems off to me.
Avatar
Avatar
TheJester
Is there another way to prevent meta data alteration, it feels like it is a little naive to use distance limit as a hard rule, no?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/08/2022 10:35 AM
Just as there are multiple ways to cheat, there are mulitple tools to stop them. Check out HIPs 40,42, 44 🙂 The limit is to incentivize building the network to the end goal: Data from sensors. Hearing a beacon from a hotspot at 200km is pointless if the sensors are only actual sending 50km.
Avatar
Avatar
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸
Overall the whole idea of restricting expansion of something we are trying to expand seems off to me.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/08/2022 10:35 AM
100km radius is a huge area and still more than enough for the expansion of coverage.
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
The data will still be there to catch cheaters 🙂
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸 04/08/2022 10:35 AM
If there are currently methods to catch cheaters, then we should use them. People can report suspect cheaters and the cheating can be verified. Then actions can be taken.
Avatar
Avatar
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸
If there are currently methods to catch cheaters, then we should use them. People can report suspect cheaters and the cheating can be verified. Then actions can be taken.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/08/2022 10:36 AM
There is no one method to catch all cheaters. You have to apply multiple tools. This will be just one of them.
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
100km radius is a huge area and still more than enough for the expansion of coverage.
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸 04/08/2022 10:38 AM
For most areas that may be true. But why limit the opportunity to expand in areas where there are little to no hotspots? Look at the area from Orlando to Miami... nothing. Expanding that area so travelers can utilize the IoT would be good.
10:39
10:39
Avatar
Avatar
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸
For most areas that may be true. But why limit the opportunity to expand in areas where there are little to no hotspots? Look at the area from Orlando to Miami... nothing. Expanding that area so travelers can utilize the IoT would be good.
@ElonTusk | 5Gchipped made a good point above, sensors can only send data so far. So even if an hotspot antenna is unbounded it doesn’t help the network since sensors won’t be able to broadcast to it.
👍 1
Avatar
Avatar
TheJester
@ElonTusk | 5Gchipped made a good point above, sensors can only send data so far. So even if an hotspot antenna is unbounded it doesn’t help the network since sensors won’t be able to broadcast to it.
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸 04/08/2022 10:45 AM
Of course. I am talking about getting the needed hotspots in those areas. In essence, you are hurting those trying to expand into areas where there is currently no network to read sensors.
Avatar
Avatar
TheJester
@ElonTusk | 5Gchipped made a good point above, sensors can only send data so far. So even if an hotspot antenna is unbounded it doesn’t help the network since sensors won’t be able to broadcast to it.
This
Avatar
Avatar
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸
For most areas that may be true. But why limit the opportunity to expand in areas where there are little to no hotspots? Look at the area from Orlando to Miami... nothing. Expanding that area so travelers can utilize the IoT would be good.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/08/2022 10:48 AM
Again, because sensor range. You want POC in the middle of nowhere? Set up more hotspots. BOOM, useful network coverage expansion. The network is for data, not POC.
10:49
Frankly the Dev team should have set this from the beginning.
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Again, because sensor range. You want POC in the middle of nowhere? Set up more hotspots. BOOM, useful network coverage expansion. The network is for data, not POC.
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸 04/08/2022 10:50 AM
The Florida Turnpike cuts right through that area. Millions of people a year travel to South Florida. Many IoT devices of the future are going to be on vehicles, and truck drivers. There is a need 😁
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Frankly the Dev team should have set this from the beginning.
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸 04/08/2022 10:53 AM
They didn't, because they wanted the network to expand. I could place hotspots in the area and have them witness to each other, like when this all started, but the rewards of 10+ a day are not possible now. So people wanting to expand in areas like this won't have the incentives to do so now at 0.5 HNT if their lucky.
👎 1
Avatar
Avatar
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸
The Florida Turnpike cuts right through that area. Millions of people a year travel to South Florida. Many IoT devices of the future are going to be on vehicles, and truck drivers. There is a need 😁
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/08/2022 10:54 AM
Then get some hotspots over there. Sounds like a sweet spot 🙂
Avatar
Avatar
TotallyBro
RF travels well over water and flat areas. Why punish good setups yet again? This is a disincentive. (edited)
rennieb Hot Spot Summer 04/08/2022 10:55 AM
It travels well over water, but it doesn’t need to, and those distances are not efficient or even particularly useful for customers of the network. The incentive is to build useful, reliable coverage. There’s no incentive to set distance records with useless coverage.
💯 2
facepalm 1
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/08/2022 10:55 AM
Also, to be clear, this does not limit data coverage. If for some weird reason you get a sensor ping from 200km out, that is still rewarded.
👍🏻 1
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Then get some hotspots over there. Sounds like a sweet spot 🙂
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸 04/08/2022 10:55 AM
That is what I am doing. Lol But this HIP can significantly reduce my rewards while trying.
💯 1
Avatar
Florida is only 200 km wide. I don’t get the issue here. Are spots really witnessing coast to coast?
Avatar
Avatar
rennieb Hot Spot Summer
It travels well over water, but it doesn’t need to, and those distances are not efficient or even particularly useful for customers of the network. The incentive is to build useful, reliable coverage. There’s no incentive to set distance records with useless coverage.
Still, moves like this awful idea eeats away incentive to upgrade your setup.
👎 1
Avatar
Avatar
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸
That is what I am doing. Lol But this HIP can significantly reduce my rewards while trying.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/08/2022 10:56 AM
Then set up more hotspots. If it's such a great spot, should be a no-brainer. 🙂
10:56
Do you want real coverage, or just to milk POC?
Avatar
Avatar
backtran
Florida is only 200 km wide. I don’t get the issue here. Are spots really witnessing coast to coast?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/08/2022 10:57 AM
With this HIP, yeah, they could. lol
Avatar
Avatar
TotallyBro
Still, moves like this awful idea eeats away incentive to upgrade your setup.
rennieb Hot Spot Summer 04/08/2022 10:57 AM
Hell no. The incentive is to upgrade your setup to provide useful coverage. If you can’t do that within a 125,600 square km radius you’re doing something incredibly wrong.
facepalm 1
👍 2
💯 2
Avatar
Avatar
TotallyBro
Still, moves like this awful idea eeats away incentive to upgrade your setup.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/08/2022 10:57 AM
You still have provided no hard data.
facepalm 1
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Do you want real coverage, or just to milk POC?
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸 04/08/2022 10:57 AM
You are missing my point. We want real coverage. But I'm not going to invest Thousands for free.
💯 1
Avatar
this is the worst HIP yet
👎 2
Avatar
Avatar
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸
You are missing my point. We want real coverage. But I'm not going to invest Thousands for free.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/08/2022 10:58 AM
It's not free. You still get POC. If you're a lone wolf, you weren't getting paid in the first place. (edited)
Avatar
Avatar
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸
You are missing my point. We want real coverage. But I'm not going to invest Thousands for free.
rennieb Hot Spot Summer 04/08/2022 10:58 AM
You can invest whatever you want, and you can do a great job of providing useful coverage within a useful radius.
facepalm 1
Avatar
Avatar
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸
You are missing my point. We want real coverage. But I'm not going to invest Thousands for free.
These fanbois don't understand. Network keeps shooting itself in the foot with terrible ideas.
coolstory 2
facepalm 1
Avatar
dont turn my radio power down then swapping antennas is pointless
👍 1
Avatar
Avatar
TotallyBro
Still, moves like this awful idea eeats away incentive to upgrade your setup.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/08/2022 10:58 AM
Avatar
Avatar
Mouth
this is the worst HIP yet
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/08/2022 10:59 AM
Nah, that would be HIP57 😉
Avatar
Avatar
TotallyBro
These fanbois don't understand. Network keeps shooting itself in the foot with terrible ideas.
rennieb Hot Spot Summer 04/08/2022 10:59 AM
Setting distance records has no real value for the network, for the consumer or even for the hotspot operator. I don’t get what you’re so worried about.
facepalm 1
👍 1
💯 1
Avatar
both combined
Avatar
Avatar
rennieb Hot Spot Summer
Setting distance records has no real value for the network, for the consumer or even for the hotspot operator. I don’t get what you’re so worried about.
becuase not everyone is next to other hotspots as close as others
👍 1
Avatar
Avatar
Mouth
dont turn my radio power down then swapping antennas is pointless
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/08/2022 11:00 AM
Antennas were always pointless... Light of sight dictates range, not dbi
facepalm 1
Avatar
rennieb Hot Spot Summer 04/08/2022 11:00 AM
The distance limit gives you more than 100,000 square kilometers to work with. If you can’t make it work within that range, I don’t know what to tell you man.
Avatar
stock antennas are lame
Avatar
Avatar
Mouth
becuase not everyone is next to other hotspots as close as others
rennieb Hot Spot Summer 04/08/2022 11:00 AM
I’ve pioneered new areas of empty coverage. That’s how I’ve earned my fortune. I didn’t need 100km to do it.
👆 1
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
It's not free. You still get POC. If you're a lone wolf, you weren't getting paid in the first place. (edited)
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸 04/08/2022 11:00 AM
Now we are just going in circles. I am working on placing hotspots to the south of me to expand the network. If they only POC off each other, then I don't receive my investment back. If they leave it alone, then my Hotspots and POC to each coast, earning, while I expand. Exactly like this network did 18 months ago.
💯 1
Avatar
no one needs 100 but limiting say my already 20km to 5 or ten is dumb af
Avatar
Avatar
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸
Now we are just going in circles. I am working on placing hotspots to the south of me to expand the network. If they only POC off each other, then I don't receive my investment back. If they leave it alone, then my Hotspots and POC to each coast, earning, while I expand. Exactly like this network did 18 months ago.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/08/2022 11:01 AM
What are you talking about? Of course you get paid if they POC off each other. (edited)
Avatar
yeah as long as there not on same IPs and so on
Avatar
Avatar
Mouth
no one needs 100 but limiting say my already 20km to 5 or ten is dumb af
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/08/2022 11:02 AM
No one is limiting you under 100km
Avatar
Avatar
Mouth
yeah as long as there not on same IPs and so on
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/08/2022 11:02 AM
That's not how that works. That's for Beacons. You shouldn't be on the same IP in the first place.
Avatar
Avatar
rennieb Hot Spot Summer
I’ve pioneered new areas of empty coverage. That’s how I’ve earned my fortune. I didn’t need 100km to do it.
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸 04/08/2022 11:02 AM
You were probably getting more rewards at the time. Rewards now are slim pickings and you need to be smart, with a plan to get them. Putting in this HIP reduces rewards for those trying to do what you were able to do.
💯 2
👎 3
Avatar
Avatar
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸
You were probably getting more rewards at the time. Rewards now are slim pickings and you need to be smart, with a plan to get them. Putting in this HIP reduces rewards for those trying to do what you were able to do.
rennieb Hot Spot Summer 04/08/2022 11:03 AM
I’m talking about now.
11:03
Fomo and fud don’t mean anything.
Avatar
there should be no way to choose my hopspot and turn its power down. that is just dumb it hurts POC
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
What are you talking about? Of course you get paid if they POC off each other. (edited)
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸 04/08/2022 11:04 AM
Read it again. Not what I said 😀
Avatar
we have a limit from the FCC for a reason
Avatar
Avatar
Mouth
there should be no way to choose my hopspot and turn its power down. that is just dumb it hurts POC
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/08/2022 11:04 AM
I think you're misunderstanding the HIP 🙂
Avatar
Avatar
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸
Read it again. Not what I said 😀
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/08/2022 11:05 AM
" If they only POC off each other, then I don't receive my investment back. "
Avatar
it turns down the listening porting of the POC aka by turning down power aka making it hard to hear hotspots if you are far away (edited)
Avatar
99 % of the farms are in 30km radius , why cut 100km ?
👍 2
💯 1
Avatar
Avatar
Mouth
we have a limit from the FCC for a reason
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/08/2022 11:06 AM
That is not how this all works. We are building pick up sensor data. If the range is 50km, why would I pay you to be 200km away? Your spot has no value to the network. Hotspots are paid based on their vaule to the network.
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
" If they only POC off each other, then I don't receive my investment back. "
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸 04/08/2022 11:06 AM
I'll type it again " If they ONLY POC off each other, then I don't get my investment back" In other words, I need the help from the coastal cities.
💯 1
Avatar
Avatar
Jose79
99 % of the farms are in 30km radius , why cut 100km ?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/08/2022 11:06 AM
Because the data says that is not true
Avatar
so how come if i go directional and get 4 witnesses i get more and if i go stock and get 14 close to me and earn less
Avatar
Avatar
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸
I'll type it again " If they ONLY POC off each other, then I don't get my investment back" In other words, I need the help from the coastal cities.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/08/2022 11:07 AM
Sounds like you need more hotspots. You say you want to expand the network, and yet you don't want to expand.
Avatar
Avatar
Mouth
so how come if i go directional and get 4 witnesses i get more and if i go stock and get 14 close to me and earn less
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/08/2022 11:07 AM
Because HIP15 and HIP17
Avatar
Avatar
Mouth
so how come if i go directional and get 4 witnesses i get more and if i go stock and get 14 close to me and earn less
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/08/2022 11:08 AM
4 witnesses to a beacon is the sweet spot
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
That is not how this all works. We are building pick up sensor data. If the range is 50km, why would I pay you to be 200km away? Your spot has no value to the network. Hotspots are paid based on their vaule to the network.
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸 04/08/2022 11:08 AM
OK, then if it were up to you, we don't need to read sensors on one of the most traveled highways in Florida, for hundreds of miles.
👍 1
Avatar
still get 14 witnesses on a beacon
11:08
but only hear 4 for the 5 days
11:09
ill switch that mf back
Avatar
Avatar
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸
OK, then if it were up to you, we don't need to read sensors on one of the most traveled highways in Florida, for hundreds of miles.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/08/2022 11:09 AM
I never said that. If there is data there, then more people than you will set up there.
Avatar
Just like a real wireless network. We need a mix of macro and micro towers. This takes away incentive to find a high spot, or put up a tower in the country.
Avatar
Avatar
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸
OK, then if it were up to you, we don't need to read sensors on one of the most traveled highways in Florida, for hundreds of miles.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/08/2022 11:09 AM
Data is not limited. POC is...
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Sounds like you need more hotspots. You say you want to expand the network, and yet you don't want to expand.
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸 04/08/2022 11:10 AM
OK. We're done for now. I have failed to properly explain this simple idea/concern to you.
👍 1
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Because the data says that is not true
your data is wrong... i have access points in valencia, and i reach mallorca 250 km away! and it is true, they are real... but I remind you that in Mallorca there are more than a thousand fakes and they are only seen within 20 km of each other
Avatar
Avatar
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸
OK. We're done for now. I have failed to properly explain this simple idea/concern to you.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/08/2022 11:10 AM
You want to milk POC. We're saying you need to build for data.
🧑‍🌾 1
Avatar
Avatar
Jose79
your data is wrong... i have access points in valencia, and i reach mallorca 250 km away! and it is true, they are real... but I remind you that in Mallorca there are more than a thousand fakes and they are only seen within 20 km of each other
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/08/2022 11:10 AM
You edge case is not "data".
Avatar
@Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) Specially for you, v2 where beacons is also included 😉
❤️ 1
Avatar
I think this HIP is a cheap lure. to entertain the community and hide the big farms. Or am I the lucky one to have a farm with more than 1,500 and 20 validators as a neighbor?
Avatar
Avatar
Jose79
I think this HIP is a cheap lure. to entertain the community and hide the big farms. Or am I the lucky one to have a farm with more than 1,500 and 20 validators as a neighbor?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/08/2022 11:16 AM
Yeah, because we're all here to try to kill the network we've spent thousands on. 🙄
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
57 is terrible. Legit hotspots don't get paid for their work, and cheaters just wait a bit, then cheat. It does nothing to stop them. (edited)
Maybe some limits changed or adjustments made, and grandfather existing hotspots, but having some sort of validation mechanism before just allowing someone to take 8 hotspots online at once and immediately start earning would help give denylist an opportunity to cancel them out.
Avatar
Avatar
Jose79
your data is wrong... i have access points in valencia, and i reach mallorca 250 km away! and it is true, they are real... but I remind you that in Mallorca there are more than a thousand fakes and they are only seen within 20 km of each other
Of course there are cheaters who don’t use long distance fakes. There are other mechanisms to deal with them. Got proof of cheating? report on GitHub - it’s easy. (edited)
Avatar
Avatar
mattyk84
Maybe some limits changed or adjustments made, and grandfather existing hotspots, but having some sort of validation mechanism before just allowing someone to take 8 hotspots online at once and immediately start earning would help give denylist an opportunity to cancel them out.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/08/2022 11:18 AM
They just bide their time until the probation is over, then cheat anyway. It doesn't stop them at all.
Avatar
Done with the dashboard, includes both witnesses as well as people witnessing you. So I think if everyone with doubts can just determine if their feelings are justified we'll be fine 🙂
❤️ 3
👍 3
Avatar
Avatar
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸
The Florida Turnpike cuts right through that area. Millions of people a year travel to South Florida. Many IoT devices of the future are going to be on vehicles, and truck drivers. There is a need 😁
Speaking of the Florida Turnpike, seems to me it is always well within 100km of populated areas. So if you setup around along the pike to listen at sensor range you will always be in PoC range anyway.
🤘 1
Avatar
Avatar
backtran
Speaking of the Florida Turnpike, seems to me it is always well within 100km of populated areas. So if you setup around along the pike to listen at sensor range you will always be in PoC range anyway.
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸 04/08/2022 11:33 AM
You are correct, for the East coast. But not the West side. You need 160km.
Avatar
And again
11:35
~180 km
Avatar
Avatar
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸
You are correct, for the East coast. But not the West side. You need 160km.
So you wanna hear PoC from the turnpike to the Westcoast when there's a huge spot density next door comparatively. Its not like you wont PoC - which seems to be what you were saying You will PoC and almost all will come from much closer than 100km.
Avatar
Avatar
groot
@Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) Specially for you, v2 where beacons is also included 😉
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 04/08/2022 11:39 AM
Same link?
👍 1
Avatar
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸 04/08/2022 11:41 AM
The easier expansion is almost over. What is left now, in the US, are areas between cities and heavier populated areas. This HIP could stifle that needed expansion, along roadways that connect these populated areas. Reports show that by 2025 21 billion IoT devices will be in the world. Many of which will be on vehicles traveling on these roads. It does not make sense to restrict the expansion of a network we are trying to expand. Especially if there are other methods to catch the cheaters. Regardless of what restrictive changes are upcoming, cheaters will find a way around them. Instead, let's enhance methods to catch cheaters and bring the proper justice to them.
Avatar
I mostly agree with this HIP, but I have at least 1 hotspot with a 60km witness, and after checking today, I have one at 94km. But that hotspot is on the top of a tall hill. So it is POSSIBLE to hit those distances, just not common.
👍 1
Avatar
Avatar
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸
The easier expansion is almost over. What is left now, in the US, are areas between cities and heavier populated areas. This HIP could stifle that needed expansion, along roadways that connect these populated areas. Reports show that by 2025 21 billion IoT devices will be in the world. Many of which will be on vehicles traveling on these roads. It does not make sense to restrict the expansion of a network we are trying to expand. Especially if there are other methods to catch the cheaters. Regardless of what restrictive changes are upcoming, cheaters will find a way around them. Instead, let's enhance methods to catch cheaters and bring the proper justice to them.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/08/2022 11:42 AM
Avatar
Avatar
groot
I might make a v2 specially for you🙏
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 04/08/2022 11:44 AM
I’m genuinely surprised it isn’t more lol about 10% I thought it would b closer to 30%
11:45
Avatar
@Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) where did you find that?
11:46
Is that referring to total hotspots in a given area hitting over 100km?
Avatar
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 04/08/2022 11:46 AM
No each beacon event
Avatar
Avatar
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions)
I’m genuinely surprised it isn’t more lol about 10% I thought it would b closer to 30%
Glad to see that the data could help you:)
Avatar
Avatar
groot
Glad to see that the data could help you:)
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 04/08/2022 11:48 AM
Yea and that’s just one spot lmao rest I got are basically negligible
❤️ 2
Avatar
Avatar
groot
Glad to see that the data could help you:)
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 04/08/2022 11:48 AM
It’s on a 6000ft mountain so yea lol
Avatar
I wasn't bullshitting you, I honestly believed that you wouldn't be affected and I'm glad your not 🙂
🤘 1
11:49
If you want to see one that would've been affected: 112iAoNrcL5PqUE6kEvQ5WeE9KksZXg7yQa7xUaYsYqTCkqsJUSy
😮 1
🤯 1
11:49
(A cheater)
Avatar
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 04/08/2022 11:49 AM
Yea when the network was chugging a few months ago
11:50
Those 200km beacons used to be way more common
11:50
But recently
11:50
Beacons seem to be landing closer to home base
❤️ 1
Avatar
1,003 witnessed? Sheesh
Avatar
my witnessed is closer to home and my beacon goes far out
Avatar
Avatar
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions)
Beacons seem to be landing closer to home base
That's expected I guess as the area was probably a lot more sparse back then. If you turn them all off you can probably still see them. But the odds of being one of 14 when there are so many others...
Avatar
Avatar
groot
That's expected I guess as the area was probably a lot more sparse back then. If you turn them all off you can probably still see them. But the odds of being one of 14 when there are so many others...
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 04/08/2022 11:57 AM
Yea that also witness seem to work differently after PoCv11 u don’t really get those 277 km beacons 😉
Avatar
Avatar
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions)
Yea that also witness seem to work differently after PoCv11 u don’t really get those 277 km beacons 😉
No more 80dBm output power 😂
😄 1
Avatar
Avatar
backtran
So you wanna hear PoC from the turnpike to the Westcoast when there's a huge spot density next door comparatively. Its not like you wont PoC - which seems to be what you were saying You will PoC and almost all will come from much closer than 100km.
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸 04/08/2022 11:58 AM
Do I want as many witnesses as I can get while I invest in improving the network around me? Yes. Guilty. But my objections to this are for the network itself. Restricting expansion is not the answer. If someone can show "this is what the cheaters are doing and this is how it effects the network, and HIP 58 will stop it" then I would be more inclined to look at it differently. But all I currently see is restricting expansion in hopes that it deters cheaters from doing what they're going to do anyways, HIP 58 or no HIP 58. (edited)
Avatar
I really dont understand how you are "restricted", put up MORE hotspots 100km apart
👆 3
💯 1
Avatar
Avatar
groot
No more 80dBm output power 😂
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 04/08/2022 12:02 PM
👀
Avatar
Avatar
BiggieJohn
I really dont understand how you are "restricted", put up MORE hotspots 100km apart
Oh really? Maybe he has only this one hotspot and no money to invest in 10's of other hotspots
👎 1
Avatar
while that is a very nice hypothetical, he has already said he is a business with clients that expect a very quick ROI and high monthly payments
👆 1
Avatar
is this not also a way to rule out amplifiers. dial the radio back far enough even with amplification so that it meets their requirements on length of coverage?
❔ 1
Avatar
Wise Technology 04/08/2022 12:05 PM
The Helium dose not wourthed any more
👋 1
Avatar
Avatar
BiggieJohn
I really dont understand how you are "restricted", put up MORE hotspots 100km apart
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸 04/08/2022 12:05 PM
The way it restricts is in the way people putting up more hotspots get rewarded through more witnesses. If you read earlier, my argument for me personally, is I currently have the opportunity to witness coast to coast in Florida while I help to expand the network south of Orlando to South Florida. I, and others wanting to expand here, would like to be rewarded for witnessing to the coastal cities while we expand the network. It is much more rewarding than witnessing to the few we are installing around us. Maybe earlier, when daily rewards were 10+ HNT per day, this was easier to do, but with HIP 58, you will be limiting available witnesses, thus reducing the already reduced rewards.
💯 2
Avatar
sorry to break the news to you, but rewards WILL ALWAYS decline, fixed rewards, more miners . . .
💯 1
Avatar
scale of reward for whales increase and decline for the ones building the network
facepalm 1
Avatar
if you really believe 1 hotspot can provide coverage for 250+KM . . .then we would only need a few to cover all of FL
12:08
the reality is, you are NOT providing actual data coverage that far out
👍🏻 2
👆 1
12:09
the gators and snakes in the swamps dont have 60ft 10db antennas on their heads
Avatar
rennieb Hot Spot Summer 04/08/2022 12:10 PM
And if you do happen to pick up packets from such an unlikely distance, there’s no restriction on that. Go ahead and build your entire-state data coverage if you really think you can.
🤘 1
Avatar
Avatar
BiggieJohn
sorry to break the news to you, but rewards WILL ALWAYS decline, fixed rewards, more miners . . .
Not true, you will earn more now cause hip58 will take that 50 hnt/day the long distance cheaters made and distribute it to us 🙂
Avatar
Avatar
BiggieJohn
if you really believe 1 hotspot can provide coverage for 250+KM . . .then we would only need a few to cover all of FL
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸 04/08/2022 12:10 PM
Lol. Not what I am saying at all! We need more hotspots along these heavily traveled roads to Miami. The entire South Central Florida area. What is the incentive for people to invest in these areas if they can't capture witnesses along the coasts?
Avatar
Avatar
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸
Lol. Not what I am saying at all! We need more hotspots along these heavily traveled roads to Miami. The entire South Central Florida area. What is the incentive for people to invest in these areas if they can't capture witnesses along the coasts?
rennieb Hot Spot Summer 04/08/2022 12:11 PM
The 100km border gives you 125,600 square kilometers. Isn’t that enough?
12:11
whatever you’re worried about makes no sense, @Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸
12:13
People in south central Florida can interact with any one of the hundreds of potential witnesses and beacons within a 125,600 square kilometer range. Witness pools are capped at 14 anyway. The network needs far more than 14 hotspots per 125,600 square kilometers.
12:13
If the incentive isn’t good enough for you, it will be more than good enough for somebody else who actually understand what they’re doing.
Avatar
Avatar
Mouth
scale of reward for whales increase and decline for the ones building the network
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/08/2022 12:14 PM
not sure how you come to that conclusion. 🤨
Avatar
rennieb Hot Spot Summer 04/08/2022 12:14 PM
These guys say the weirdest things
💯 2
12:14
It’s like performance art. No normal person could come to these weird conclusions, let alone like five or six.
😄 1
Avatar
Avatar
BiggieJohn
the gators and snakes in the swamps dont have 60ft 10db antennas on their heads
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/08/2022 12:15 PM
...Yet 😉 lol
Avatar
if there is no coverage, fill in teh coverage gaps, dont tell me you need to witness further
👆🏼 1
Avatar
Avatar
BiggieJohn
if there is no coverage, fill in teh coverage gaps, dont tell me you need to witness further
rennieb Hot Spot Summer 04/08/2022 12:16 PM
I’ve been doing that for two years. Stunting over long distances across water has never been a useful way to build the network or earn rewards. High effort off grids notwithstanding, but even they are more productive within a smaller footprint. (edited)
Avatar
How is this update gonna fix this cheater, only around him he will take 4 HNT now 30 a day
Avatar
Avatar
belzebut
Not true, you will earn more now cause hip58 will take that 50 hnt/day the long distance cheaters made and distribute it to us 🙂
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/08/2022 12:17 PM
I don't expect the rewards taken from cheaters will really show up on an individual's hoptspot enough to really notice. 🙂
👍🏻 1
Avatar
Deleted User 04/08/2022 12:20 PM
each few days another problem in this helium
12:20
it's getting a joke ...
😂 1
12:20
more then a joke
Avatar
Avatar
dj013
How is this update gonna fix this cheater, only around him he will take 4 HNT now 30 a day
sorry, I miess the part where it said HIP58 would solve all cheating everywhere, forever (edited)
👍🏻 4
Avatar
It will not help
Avatar
Avatar
Deleted User
each few days another problem in this helium
rennieb Hot Spot Summer 04/08/2022 12:25 PM
You must have ordered your hotspots back when there were no problems and everybody earned a Lambo per week
Avatar
Hip 59 : stop changing things before it is stable for at least 2 months
10k 1
Avatar
Avatar
dj013
Hip 59 : stop changing things before it is stable for at least 2 months
does that include new hotspot onboarding ?
Avatar
Hotsport onboarding is one of the things that is more and more unstable
Avatar
Avatar
dj013
Hip 59 : stop changing things before it is stable for at least 2 months
rennieb Hot Spot Summer 04/08/2022 12:27 PM
We’re building the network. The point isn’t to make it “stable”, the point is to make the project work.
12:27
You guys are missing the whole dang point. This isn’t a free money machine for low effort weirdos.
🔥 2
12:28
Remember that you can amicably part ways with the project at any time if it’s too hard for you.
👆 2
Avatar
#hip-55-validator-challenges will be a major improvement to stability, and most of the configuration issues
Avatar
For the project to work we don’t need hip 58
👍 1
👎 1
Avatar
rennieb Hot Spot Summer 04/08/2022 12:29 PM
For the project to work we don’t need pointless 200km POC events
👍 1
Avatar
They are already part of the project
facepalm 1
Avatar
rennieb Hot Spot Summer 04/08/2022 12:29 PM
But they don’t need to be 👋
12:29
Spoofers are part of the project too
12:30
Block chain halts? Part of the project.
Avatar
We can also kill the project , no one will cheat anymore
🙄 1
Avatar
rennieb Hot Spot Summer 04/08/2022 12:30 PM
People who watched half a YouTube video and thought they had found a Lambo shortcut? definitely part of the project.
Avatar
Avatar
dj013
We can also kill the project , no one will cheat anymore
rennieb Hot Spot Summer 04/08/2022 12:31 PM
Our customers want reliable coverage on a reliable network. They don’t care about how one guy feels about his beach bum setup. Think about the goal, not what’s convenient for low effort setups.
👍 1
Avatar
This is a bs HIP and i hope people will vote against.
👍🏻 1
👎 1
Avatar
Avatar
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸
The way it restricts is in the way people putting up more hotspots get rewarded through more witnesses. If you read earlier, my argument for me personally, is I currently have the opportunity to witness coast to coast in Florida while I help to expand the network south of Orlando to South Florida. I, and others wanting to expand here, would like to be rewarded for witnessing to the coastal cities while we expand the network. It is much more rewarding than witnessing to the few we are installing around us. Maybe earlier, when daily rewards were 10+ HNT per day, this was easier to do, but with HIP 58, you will be limiting available witnesses, thus reducing the already reduced rewards.
Low witness numbers for a beacon actually bring MORE rewards to those that hear it. So if you build out on your own and you witness your own spots of say 4. That’s actually far better than multiple low grade witnessing
👍🏻 1
Avatar
We have bigger issues
Avatar
rennieb Hot Spot Summer 04/08/2022 12:32 PM
I don’t think it’s a very graceful or precise tool for dealing with cheaters either, but the arguments against it are so boneheaded that it’s pushing me into the Yes column (edited)
12:33
I know what the weaknesses of this approach are, but “my beach beacons!!!!” isn’t one of them.
Avatar
Avatar
dj013
We have bigger issues
This is a chain far that takes 3 minutes tops, said this this morning to you too. You're great setups turned out to be almost unaffected too so I don't understand the fuss.
12:34
Avatar
For me it’s max loss of 10 witnesses but it’s not the good way to deal with the problem
Avatar
Avatar
groot
This is a chain far that takes 3 minutes tops, said this this morning to you too. You're great setups turned out to be almost unaffected too so I don't understand the fuss.
Another one
Avatar
Avatar
rennieb Hot Spot Summer
You must have ordered your hotspots back when there were no problems and everybody earned a Lambo per week
Deleted User 04/08/2022 12:35 PM
lol i don't like lambo at all 😄
😂 1
🤘 1
Avatar
So what's the problem? So we have this system that will better align PoC with actual sensor coverage that hurts only some cheaters and yet you don't like it?
Avatar
Avatar
rennieb Hot Spot Summer
We’re building the network. The point isn’t to make it “stable”, the point is to make the project work.
Deleted User 04/08/2022 12:35 PM
thats's the biggest excuse 'building the network' c'mon ... dammzz be realistic 🙂
❌ 2
Avatar
Avatar
dj013
Another one
Check them at the link. You'll see the effect is minimal
Avatar
Avatar
rennieb Hot Spot Summer
I don’t think it’s a very graceful or precise tool for dealing with cheaters either, but the arguments against it are so boneheaded that it’s pushing me into the Yes column (edited)
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 04/08/2022 12:36 PM
😄 2
Avatar
Avatar
dj013
This is a bs HIP and i hope people will vote against.
Deleted User 04/08/2022 12:36 PM
no need to vote as it's already decided before voting :p me and your vote won't make any sense at all 😄
Avatar
Avatar
Deleted User
no need to vote as it's already decided before voting :p me and your vote won't make any sense at all 😄
This is not how democracy works.
👆 1
Avatar
Avatar
groot
Check them at the link. You'll see the effect is minimal
I know, i said it max 10 witnesses for me
Avatar
Avatar
Deleted User
no need to vote as it's already decided before voting :p me and your vote won't make any sense at all 😄
Thats also something that is not ok
Avatar
Avatar
groot
This is not how democracy works.
Is this democracy?
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
They just bide their time until the probation is over, then cheat anyway. It doesn't stop them at all.
So if they set up their spoofed network, it gives more time to report to the denylist, making it unprofitable for them to cheat before losing use of their hotspots
Avatar
Avatar
groot
This is not how democracy works.
Deleted User 04/08/2022 12:38 PM
well if democracy is the thing then all should have 1 vote and are equal 🙂 then it's democracy now the whales are the ones who decide
Avatar
Avatar
backtran
Low witness numbers for a beacon actually bring MORE rewards to those that hear it. So if you build out on your own and you witness your own spots of say 4. That’s actually far better than multiple low grade witnessing
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸 04/08/2022 12:38 PM
That is a good point, and that is in the plan. My entire arguement is basically, why restrict the ability for expansion on a network we are trying to expand. I get it. MOST people are not in the situation I am in. The easy answer is to just limit reach-ability. I don't see how that will help prevent cheaters, but I do see how it doesn't make sense to do when your goal is to expand. If you are in a flat environment, like Florida, and can reach 100 miles (160km), then you should be able to do so. It only helps with expansion.
Avatar
Avatar
dj013
Is this democracy?
The voting part? Yes pretty much.
💯 1
Avatar
Deleted User 04/08/2022 12:38 PM
nah not really
12:38
as not al votes are equal ..
12:38
whales and high rollers have more power 🙂
12:38
in a democracy each have 1 vote
Avatar
Avatar
Deleted User
whales and high rollers have more power 🙂
Exactly
Avatar
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 04/08/2022 12:39 PM
I’m actually starting to feel for @groot lol this seems like it must be exhausting to deal with….
💯 2
Avatar
If putting a hard cap at 100km is going to help the network run smoother than that's something I never thought of (ignore the cheating aspect of this, as was said before, this is more of a HIP to try and get PoC aligned more with sensor coverage)
Avatar
Deleted User 04/08/2022 12:39 PM
and i don't know from what country you from but here in belgium there is also democracy ... imagine your politic party have the most votes ... in general and normal cauyse you will be the boss of parlement .... but what happen ... all the losers come toghter to make a block against the biggest
12:39
and bye bye democary ..
Avatar
Avatar
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions)
I’m actually starting to feel for @groot lol this seems like it must be exhausting to deal with….
Pretty much, also starting to wonder why I keep explaining it... 🙃
😂 1
☝️ 1
❤️ 1
Avatar
Deleted User 04/08/2022 12:40 PM
laast elections RIGHT wing won ... but all other party's made a block colaition to avoid right
🤨 1
Avatar
Avatar
groot
Pretty much, also starting to wonder why I keep explaining it... 🙃
masochist? (edited)
😄 1
Avatar
Avatar
Deleted User
well if democracy is the thing then all should have 1 vote and are equal 🙂 then it's democracy now the whales are the ones who decide
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 04/08/2022 12:40 PM
Like wtf this hip has nothing to do with the voting process I agree it bias towards people that got in “early” but this is not the place buddy…
Avatar
Deleted User 04/08/2022 12:40 PM
so far the voice / vote of the people ...
Avatar
Avatar
dj013
Hip 59 : stop changing things before it is stable for at least 2 months
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/08/2022 12:40 PM
You mean HIP55? lol
Avatar
Avatar
rennieb Hot Spot Summer
You guys are missing the whole dang point. This isn’t a free money machine for low effort weirdos.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/08/2022 12:40 PM
Please tone back the name calling.
Avatar
Belgium has a democracy that took 4 years to form a parliament, of course you want things not to change for two months 😂
😆 1
Avatar
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 04/08/2022 12:41 PM
The voting process is messed up NGL
💯 1
12:41
No reason why the owner of helium-staking should have the voting power of 32+ validators
💯 2
12:41
When it’s other ppls money
12:42
Imo
12:42
Staked hnt
Avatar
It's pretty controversial but it is what it is unfortunately. Don't think the owners of the VaaS have actually voted so far though
Avatar
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 04/08/2022 12:42 PM
Should not be able to be used to vote with
Avatar
Avatar
dj013
This is a bs HIP and i hope people will vote against.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/08/2022 12:42 PM
Avatar
Avatar
groot
It's pretty controversial but it is what it is unfortunately. Don't think the owners of the VaaS have actually voted so far though
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 04/08/2022 12:43 PM
Just get rid of stake hnt voting power OR make my HS worth something no reason why a hotspot shouldn’t be worth a few votes….
👍 1
Avatar
Avatar
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions)
Just get rid of stake hnt voting power OR make my HS worth something no reason why a hotspot shouldn’t be worth a few votes….
That's one can of worms I'm not going to jump into 🙊
😂 1
👍 1
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
People follow they don’t think, this update will not help anything except kill a few cheaters that will find something else to cheat
Avatar
Avatar
mattyk84
So if they set up their spoofed network, it gives more time to report to the denylist, making it unprofitable for them to cheat before losing use of their hotspots
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/08/2022 12:44 PM
What are you going to report? They won't be cheating yet.
Avatar
Avatar
dj013
People follow they don’t think, this update will not help anything except kill a few cheaters that will find something else to cheat
Deleted User 04/08/2022 12:45 PM
already working on a re edit of middleman so it's mather of time for relaease 😉
Avatar
Avatar
dj013
People follow they don’t think, this update will not help anything except kill a few cheaters that will find something else to cheat
If it doesn't help anything why does it kill a few cheaters? 😂
😆 1
Avatar
Avatar
groot
Pretty much, also starting to wonder why I keep explaining it... 🙃
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/08/2022 12:45 PM
Because you care about the network, unlike some around here...
Avatar
Deleted User 04/08/2022 12:46 PM
if helium really cared about the network holes should be fixed already long time
12:46
i can't imagine my company have critical holes and i leave doors open for yearts
Avatar
Avatar
Deleted User
if helium really cared about the network holes should be fixed already long time
Exactly
Avatar
Avatar
groot
If it doesn't help anything why does it kill a few cheaters? 😂
It’s the wrong way to do this
👎 1
Avatar
Avatar
Deleted User
if helium really cared about the network holes should be fixed already long time
Please provide the solutions if you have them, preferably somewhere where it isn't completely offtopic. (e.g. not here)
Avatar
Deleted User 04/08/2022 12:47 PM
a child knows and see the growth of the network too ... stange only this week extra seeds came :p
12:47
problems could be avoid ...
12:47
and i can keep on going ... but i better sst or get a ban again 😄
12:47
or get muted ...
12:47
being critical is not appreciated here i discovered
Avatar
Avatar
dj013
It’s the wrong way to do this
Yeah, eh, no. You said it didn't help anything, then followed with that it kills some cheaters. Its one or the other, don't go jump on another topic to hide your hypocrisy.
Avatar
Avatar
dj013
People follow they don’t think, this update will not help anything except kill a few cheaters that will find something else to cheat
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/08/2022 12:47 PM
So you think 90% of the voters so far are dumb? Ok...
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
So you think 90% of the voters so far are dumb? Ok...
No followers
Avatar
Avatar
groot
Please provide the solutions if you have them, preferably somewhere where it isn't completely offtopic. (e.g. not here)
Deleted User 04/08/2022 12:48 PM
contact the big boss of helium 🙂 i did him an offer but he don't want to pay 😄
12:48
he reffered to bounty page ....
12:48
i'm not a cheap indian :p
Avatar
Avatar
groot
Yeah, eh, no. You said it didn't help anything, then followed with that it kills some cheaters. Its one or the other, don't go jump on another topic to hide your hypocrisy.
You miss the point
Avatar
Deleted User 04/08/2022 12:48 PM
and now back to topic HIP58
Avatar
Avatar
dj013
You miss the point
No I don't you don't provide a point, just ramble about how unfair this HIP is while it does nothing against you. How do you know it is unfair, have you done any analysis or will it be the same as with your great setup that ended up not being affected at all.
Avatar
Avatar
Deleted User
being critical is not appreciated here i discovered
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/08/2022 12:49 PM
Critical with reason and data is fine. FUD is laughed at.
Avatar
Deleted User 04/08/2022 12:49 PM
how many data you still want to see ?
Avatar
Avatar
dj013
No followers
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/08/2022 12:49 PM
Sorry, not sure what you're trying to say.
Avatar
Deleted User 04/08/2022 12:49 PM
want another tricky lava lemur bomb ?
12:49
just say ...
Avatar
Avatar
dj013
You miss the point
It will kill some cheaters BUT also some legit users, its not much BUT effects me
Avatar
Deleted User 04/08/2022 12:49 PM
maybe need come 100 at a time ....
12:50
damzz guys c'mon ...
Avatar
Avatar
Deleted User
contact the big boss of helium 🙂 i did him an offer but he don't want to pay 😄
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/08/2022 12:50 PM
Oh you're that guy. lmao
Avatar
Deleted User 04/08/2022 12:50 PM
if you call this fud i'm don' with discussion
Avatar
Avatar
Deleted User
want another tricky lava lemur bomb ?
Wow that was bizarre
👍 1
Avatar
bomb that's a very specific choice of words that we've heard before.
Avatar
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸 04/08/2022 12:50 PM
HIP 55 barely passed. It hasn't been initialized yet, but I bet there are many more FOR it now than there was just a couple months ago. My point here is people's minds can change when given more information
Avatar
Avatar
Deleted User
if you call this fud i'm don' with discussion
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/08/2022 12:50 PM
It's fud when you won't back up your assertions with data.
Avatar
Deleted User 04/08/2022 12:50 PM
what data you need and want ?
12:51
enough data analysts here i guess
Avatar
Avatar
Deleted User
enough data analysts here i guess
They don't work for free either.
Avatar
Deleted User 04/08/2022 12:52 PM
well pay them get them abroad ...
12:52
as each normal company does
Avatar
Avatar
dj013
Wow that was bizarre
This one last 3 days
Avatar
Deleted User 04/08/2022 12:52 PM
and don't tell me there is no more money 🙂
12:52
the raised 200M ...
facepalm 1
12:52
but ok you told me it won't affect me that much so i shut up
12:52
and we will see
Avatar
I didn't just tell you, I've created a dashboard for you to see for yourself.
Avatar
Avatar
Deleted User
but ok you told me it won't affect me that much so i shut up
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/08/2022 12:53 PM
✅ 1
Avatar
Deleted User 04/08/2022 12:53 PM
let us hope from may on we will have some stable network for a time ...
💯 2
12:53
or it's also fud if i say this is basic ?
Avatar
I mean, I still don't think this will do much to the cheaters. but groot's data doesn't lie about the OTG setups
Avatar
Deleted User 04/08/2022 12:54 PM
i respect the work of groot for sure
👍 1
12:54
but i know that cheating wont stopped
12:54
things will just change
12:54
it's like you put a new lock in the door
Avatar
Exactly
Avatar
never, this is more of a lego block that you step on at night
Avatar
Deleted User 04/08/2022 12:54 PM
only a lmather of time till the door gets open again
Avatar
but i get it
Avatar
Avatar
r4wk
never, this is more of a lego block that you step on at night
Hurts like hell though so I like your analogy 😛
😄 1
Avatar
Avatar
groot
Hurts like hell though so I like your analogy 😛
haha yup, the worst 😄
12:56
" aligning the expected range of PoC with the range of LoRaWAN devices."
12:56
tbh, this is what really has my opinion swayed
🤝 3
12:56
can't argue that
Avatar
Deleted User 04/08/2022 12:56 PM
btw you know there is already a guy who sell edited SD cards ?
😬 2
12:57
i came across this last night on darkweb 🙂
Avatar
Avatar
Deleted User
btw you know there is already a guy who sell edited SD cards ?
Wtf
Avatar
hayydenjohnson 04/08/2022 12:57 PM
Would having a variable PoC distance based on hotspot density be a better solution for hotspots who are legitimate but rely on hotspots > 100km?
Avatar
Just so you know, tricky lava lemur would've lost about half if this was active. It wouldn't have stopped him but def not useless. (edited)
Avatar
Avatar
hayydenjohnson
Would having a variable PoC distance based on hotspot density be a better solution for hotspots who are legitimate but rely on hotspots > 100km?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/08/2022 12:58 PM
They doesn't address the core issue of sensor data range.
Avatar
Avatar
groot
Just so you know, tricky lava lemur would've lost about half if this was active. It wouldn't have stopped him but def not useless. (edited)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/08/2022 12:59 PM
One tool of many 🙂
Avatar
Avatar
groot
Just so you know, tricky lava lemur would've lost about half if this was active. It wouldn't have stopped him but def not useless. (edited)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/08/2022 12:59 PM
IIRC 42 would have stopped him cold
Avatar
Avatar
groot
Just so you know, tricky lava lemur would've lost about half if this was active. It wouldn't have stopped him but def not useless. (edited)
Deleted User 04/08/2022 12:59 PM
that miner was just in the basement btw , beside the chateau petrus 😄
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
IIRC 42 would have stopped him cold
Working on some cleverness with 44 but that's offtopic.
❤️ 1
Avatar
Deleted User 04/08/2022 1:00 PM
as the location / tower he claimed to be in is not even possible to do LORA 🙂
13:00
there is too many power from radio antenna installation of radio 2 there
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
They doesn't address the core issue of sensor data range.
hayydenjohnson 04/08/2022 1:00 PM
Would you be able to elaborate?
Avatar
This cheater would go to zero with hip58:
😮 1
🥳 1
Avatar
Precise Rosewood Urchin
13:01
Cheater banned today
13:01
Would still get a lot
Avatar
Avatar
hayydenjohnson
Would you be able to elaborate?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/08/2022 1:01 PM
The sliding scale you describe doesn't fix the issue of the sensors not being able to transmit that far. (edited)
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
The sliding scale you describe doesn't fix the issue of the sensors not being able to transmit that far. (edited)
There are sensors that transmit that far
Avatar
Avatar
backtran
This cheater would go to zero with hip58:
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸 04/08/2022 1:02 PM
I'm not trying to be cocky I really am trying to learn. How would HIP 55 have stopped him?
Avatar
Avatar
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸
I'm not trying to be cocky I really am trying to learn. How would HIP 55 have stopped him?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/08/2022 1:03 PM
35 events under 100km 7219 event over 100 km
Avatar
Avatar
hayydenjohnson
Would having a variable PoC distance based on hotspot density be a better solution for hotspots who are legitimate but rely on hotspots > 100km?
rennieb Hot Spot Summer 04/08/2022 1:03 PM
Nobody really relies on hotspots more than 100km away, and that shouldn’t be a goal or something that we artificially try to sustain. It’s not a practical way of building coverage.
Avatar
Avatar
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸
I'm not trying to be cocky I really am trying to learn. How would HIP 55 have stopped him?
55 would do nothing. Almost All his witnesses are >100km
Avatar
Avatar
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸
I'm not trying to be cocky I really am trying to learn. How would HIP 55 have stopped him?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/08/2022 1:04 PM
oh... 55... typo?
Avatar
Think of this 100km cap (when it comes to gaming/cheating) as an easy way to stop the dumb/lazy cheaters/gamers 😄 (edited)
Avatar
Avatar
backtran
55 would do nothing. Almost All his witnesses are >100km
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸 04/08/2022 1:04 PM
Lol. I meant 58. Sorry
👍 1
Avatar
Avatar
r4wk
Think of this 100km cap (when it comes to gaming/cheating) as an easy way to stop the dumb/lazy cheaters/gamers 😄 (edited)
Limiting the ability to cheat even for the smart ones. You can still cheat obviously but not puma style.
✅ 1
Avatar
Avatar
groot
Limiting the ability to cheat even for the smart ones. You can still cheat obviously but not puma style.
Yeah fair enough, it reels the cheaters in a little bit. (edited)
Avatar
Avatar
dj013
Would still get a lot
Deleted User 04/08/2022 1:05 PM
normal as not all implement deny list ...
Avatar
Avatar
groot
Limiting the ability to cheat even for the smart ones. You can still cheat obviously but not puma style.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/08/2022 1:05 PM
"Puma style" sounds like a janky martial arts studio in some strip mall. lol
Avatar
Avatar
Deleted User
normal as not all implement deny list ...
DigitalHuevos🥚 04/08/2022 1:05 PM
Which will be fixed by hip 42
Avatar
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸 04/08/2022 1:05 PM
So how will 58 keep him from doing the same at 59k.? I'm really wanting to know. If we had already installed 58, and he adjusted to 59km, would we have ever caught him?
Avatar
That hot spot is so infamous it's now a noun
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/08/2022 1:06 PM
🤣 1
Avatar
Just as meerkat, it's describing a class of cheating rather than the cheater itself
👍 1
Avatar
hayydenjohnson 04/08/2022 1:06 PM
@rennieb Hot Spot Summer @ElonTusk | 5Gchipped ah, so the distance hotspots can transfer data is shorter than the maximum distance hotspots can witnesses one another?
Avatar
Deleted User 04/08/2022 1:07 PM
what if cheaters get a job from helium and use their knowledge on a good way 🙂
13:07
someone think about this road ... ?
Avatar
Avatar
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸
So how will 58 keep him from doing the same at 59k.? I'm really wanting to know. If we had already installed 58, and he adjusted to 59km, would we have ever caught him?
That's the thing, this is not the end all be all to stopping the cheaters. This is more of a... thorn in their side (or lego block you step on at night)
Avatar
Deleted User 04/08/2022 1:07 PM
blackhat become whitehat 😄
13:07
but not for 1000 usd bounty ofc ..
Avatar
Isn't that what the pentagon did ?
Avatar
Avatar
r4wk
That's the thing, this is not the end all be all to stopping the cheaters. This is more of a... thorn in their side (or lego block you step on at night)
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸 04/08/2022 1:08 PM
So, an argument can be made that 58 can limit the honest miner, more than the cheater?
Avatar
Avatar
hayydenjohnson
@rennieb Hot Spot Summer @ElonTusk | 5Gchipped ah, so the distance hotspots can transfer data is shorter than the maximum distance hotspots can witnesses one another?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/08/2022 1:08 PM
No, the distance sensors can transmit is shorter than hotspots can. Hotspots have a lot more power. (edited)
Avatar
Avatar
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸
So, an argument can be made that 58 can limit the honest miner, more than the cheater?
I don't think so, after seeing the data presented by groot...
Avatar
Deleted User 04/08/2022 1:09 PM
@groot how i can write a HIP ?
13:09
proposal
Avatar
github.com/helium/hip
Avatar
Trust me, I was very much so leaning towards no on this up until I saw groots dashboard
Avatar
Avatar
hayydenjohnson
@rennieb Hot Spot Summer @ElonTusk | 5Gchipped ah, so the distance hotspots can transfer data is shorter than the maximum distance hotspots can witnesses one another?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/08/2022 1:09 PM
Misread... yes 🙂 (edited)
Avatar
Deleted User 04/08/2022 1:09 PM
let's write hip to ban whole china and all china ip's
13:10
will be a good thing
Avatar
Avatar
Deleted User
blackhat become whitehat 😄
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/08/2022 1:10 PM
Greyhat
Avatar
Avatar
r4wk
Trust me, I was very much so leaning towards no on this up until I saw groots dashboard
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/08/2022 1:10 PM
Data is always King. 🙂
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Data is always King. 🙂
Yup, shut me up real quick lmao
😄 1
Avatar
Avatar
r4wk
Yup, shut me up real quick lmao
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/08/2022 1:11 PM
I've had the same happen on some other HIPs. 😅 39 and 44 if I recall correctly.
Avatar
Avatar
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸
So how will 58 keep him from doing the same at 59k.? I'm really wanting to know. If we had already installed 58, and he adjusted to 59km, would we have ever caught him?
Not sure how he cheated at 2000km to be honest. But it’s so blatant it was a poster child of all the fudders who want to trash the helium brand. The damage it did was reputation. This is of course just my opinion but based on the unchecked outcry and hysteria on Facebook etc that helium doesn’t care about cheaters.
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Misread... yes 🙂 (edited)
hayydenjohnson 04/08/2022 1:11 PM
aha no worries. Is data transfer is peer-to-peer between hotspots?
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
I've had the same happen on some other HIPs. 😅 39 and 44 if I recall correctly.
It happens, I love this project so makes me want to voice my concerns (edited)
🍻 2
Avatar
Avatar
hayydenjohnson
aha no worries. Is data transfer is peer-to-peer between hotspots?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/08/2022 1:12 PM
data transfer is Sensor to hotspot to internet to data user.
Avatar
Avatar
backtran
Not sure how he cheated at 2000km to be honest. But it’s so blatant it was a poster child of all the fudders who want to trash the helium brand. The damage it did was reputation. This is of course just my opinion but based on the unchecked outcry and hysteria on Facebook etc that helium doesn’t care about cheaters.
Deleted User 04/08/2022 1:12 PM
call suckerberg to hide all bad things , facebook is good on this things to hide true news and facts !
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
data transfer is Sensor to hotspot to internet to data user.
hayydenjohnson 04/08/2022 1:13 PM
got you, appreciate your help👍🏻
👍 1
Avatar
Avatar
hayydenjohnson
aha no worries. Is data transfer is peer-to-peer between hotspots?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/08/2022 1:13 PM
Only hotspot to hotspot (post hip 55) will be POC stuff (beacons and witnessing)
Avatar
Avatar
hayydenjohnson
@rennieb Hot Spot Summer @ElonTusk | 5Gchipped ah, so the distance hotspots can transfer data is shorter than the maximum distance hotspots can witnesses one another?
rennieb Hot Spot Summer 04/08/2022 1:14 PM
Sensors can transfer over great distances, but realistically most sensors will only work effectively within a few km, and they typically need more than just a single hotspot to provide coverage. That being said, this HIP places no restrictions on receiving data packets from more than 100km away, only POC events.
👍 1
Avatar
Avatar
Deleted User
call suckerberg to hide all bad things , facebook is good on this things to hide true news and facts !
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/08/2022 1:15 PM
I can DM Zuck if you want... But yeah, you can take your media fud about FB and can it.
Avatar
Deleted User 04/08/2022 1:18 PM
what you want to say ? that i spread fud on FB ?
13:18
don' get you ...
Avatar
Avatar
backtran
Not sure how he cheated at 2000km to be honest. But it’s so blatant it was a poster child of all the fudders who want to trash the helium brand. The damage it did was reputation. This is of course just my opinion but based on the unchecked outcry and hysteria on Facebook etc that helium doesn’t care about cheaters.
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸 04/08/2022 1:18 PM
Seems to me, if they cared about confidence in their (our) network, and the ultimate value of HNT, they should put a bit more emphasis on crushing the Pumas of the world
Avatar
Deleted User 04/08/2022 1:18 PM
friend of my posted a reaction on press article about him full of lies ...
13:18
his message whas hided / removed from FB
13:19
says enough ...
Avatar
Avatar
Deleted User
what you want to say ? that i spread fud on FB ?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/08/2022 1:19 PM
"about"
✅ 1
13:19
Please read...
Avatar
Avatar
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸
Seems to me, if they cared about confidence in their (our) network, and the ultimate value of HNT, they should put a bit more emphasis on crushing the Pumas of the world
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/08/2022 1:19 PM
Dude... you think they haven't? lol (edited)
13:21
Where do you think the current denylist came from? And that's just the tip of the iceberg. 😄 (edited)
Avatar
Deny list on validators 🙏
🤘 1
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Where do you think the current denylist came from? And that's just the tip of the iceberg. 😄 (edited)
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸 04/08/2022 1:24 PM
From what I understand, penalties are lifetime ban, (which is easy to get around) but they can't take and redistribute the HNT loss. And, why do you have a stick up your a$$ about me anyways? Im here to try and learn more and improve our network, just...like...you.
Avatar
Avatar
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸
From what I understand, penalties are lifetime ban, (which is easy to get around) but they can't take and redistribute the HNT loss. And, why do you have a stick up your a$$ about me anyways? Im here to try and learn more and improve our network, just...like...you.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/08/2022 1:24 PM
Yeah, wallets are untouchable. Kind of the point of crypto. 🙂
Avatar
Avatar
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸
From what I understand, penalties are lifetime ban, (which is easy to get around) but they can't take and redistribute the HNT loss. And, why do you have a stick up your a$$ about me anyways? Im here to try and learn more and improve our network, just...like...you.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/08/2022 1:25 PM
And, why do you have a stick up your a$$ about me anyways?
I don't? Really, I don't.
13:25
But I will give facts to counter incorrect statments and share my knowlegde. That's all. 🙂
13:27
I've got no beef with you personally 🙂
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
But I will give facts to counter incorrect statments and share my knowlegde. That's all. 🙂
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸 04/08/2022 1:28 PM
Opinions on a debated subject are not incorrect statements. I debated with you. You did not provide me with enough info to change my mind and visa versa.
Avatar
Avatar
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸
Opinions on a debated subject are not incorrect statements. I debated with you. You did not provide me with enough info to change my mind and visa versa.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/08/2022 1:29 PM
And that's fine. I will try to change your mind, but I won't take it personally if you choose not to. 🙂
13:30
"they should put a bit more emphasis on crushing the Pumas of the world" makes it sound like they (Nova/Helium) don't care about the issue, and that's just not true at all. 🙂
Avatar
Avatar
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸
From what I understand, penalties are lifetime ban, (which is easy to get around) but they can't take and redistribute the HNT loss. And, why do you have a stick up your a$$ about me anyways? Im here to try and learn more and improve our network, just...like...you.
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 04/08/2022 1:30 PM
What stops a gamer from automatically transferring let’s say every 1hnt to an exchange till he gets caught not really a point if you can outplay the system
13:30
Avatar
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸 04/08/2022 1:31 PM
Fair enough. I am a Marine that love my country. I can't see any benefit in limitations of legal acts to hopefully minimize illegal ones.
❤️ 2
Avatar
Avatar
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸
Fair enough. I am a Marine that love my country. I can't see any benefit in limitations of legal acts to hopefully minimize illegal ones.
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 04/08/2022 1:32 PM
Their is no laws against cheating helium network
Avatar
Avatar
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸
Fair enough. I am a Marine that love my country. I can't see any benefit in limitations of legal acts to hopefully minimize illegal ones.
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 04/08/2022 1:32 PM
U will not go to jail
13:32
Technically it’s 100% legit
😆 1
Avatar
Original message was deleted or could not be loaded.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/08/2022 1:32 PM
Whoa... easy there buddy
Avatar
Avatar
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸
Fair enough. I am a Marine that love my country. I can't see any benefit in limitations of legal acts to hopefully minimize illegal ones.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/08/2022 1:33 PM
Hey, and thank you for your service. Really. That's a hell of a job that most of us don't have to do thanks to people like you. 🙂 (edited)
☝️ 2
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Hey, and thank you for your service. Really. That's a hell of a job that most of us don't have to do thanks to people like you. 🙂 (edited)
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 04/08/2022 1:34 PM
This
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
"they should put a bit more emphasis on crushing the Pumas of the world" makes it sound like they (Nova/Helium) don't care about the issue, and that's just not true at all. 🙂
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸 04/08/2022 1:42 PM
I didn't say (or meant) they didn't care. But simple laws of human action determin that if the penalty is less than the reward, they will go for the reward. If there were harsher punishments for someone that just stole thousands of dollars from the People's Network and its "shareholders" then we wouldn't think limiting our capabilities is a good idea.
💯 2
Avatar
Avatar
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸
I didn't say (or meant) they didn't care. But simple laws of human action determin that if the penalty is less than the reward, they will go for the reward. If there were harsher punishments for someone that just stole thousands of dollars from the People's Network and its "shareholders" then we wouldn't think limiting our capabilities is a good idea.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/08/2022 1:49 PM
This isn't limiting. It's building the network for its purpose. POC is not the purpose.
Avatar
nukador2k19 04/08/2022 1:50 PM
🥲 1
👍 1
Avatar
Poc = purpose to trigger people to joon
Avatar
nukador2k19 04/08/2022 1:50 PM
Wow. Killing the network
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
This isn't limiting. It's building the network for its purpose. POC is not the purpose.
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸 04/08/2022 1:51 PM
After ALL we've been through this afternoon and you still think my main driver is POC over building the network. Lol (edited)
facepalm 1
👎 1
Avatar
nukador2k19 04/08/2022 1:51 PM
Legit ppl will be penalised and it WONT stop the gaming.
🙌 1
💯 2
👍 1
👎 2
❌ 1
Avatar
Avatar
nukador2k19
Legit ppl will be penalised and it WONT stop the gaming.
Little penalized but penalized
Avatar
Avatar
dj013
Poc = purpose to trigger people to joon
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/08/2022 1:54 PM
PoC = Proof of Coverage for IoT devices
Avatar
Poc = proof of coverage FOR HELIUM MINERS
Avatar
Avatar
dj013
Poc = proof of coverage FOR HELIUM MINERS
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/08/2022 1:55 PM
That is fundimentally incorrect
Avatar
The poc rewards are trigger for people to join the network (edited)
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/08/2022 1:56 PM
We are here to cover iot data. Not POC
Avatar
Yep and to help that fly there’s poc rewards
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/08/2022 1:57 PM
The system is set up to incentivize people to build out the network in a manner that benefits the end goal (like HIPs 15 and 17).
13:59
Rewards go to those that benefit the network, not actions that benefit you.
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Rewards go to those that benefit the network, not actions that benefit you.
Works best when they line up though, hence the HIP.
💯 1
Avatar
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸 04/08/2022 2:00 PM
@ElonTusk | 5Gchipped I think many of us actually, like most of the country, have the same wants and goals, but have different methods of getting there. Restricting or limiting what hotspots capabilities are is not the way to build a network. If your "approved" miner and legal set up can legitimately reach 160 km, then you should be allowed to run with that. Limiting that ability will not stop those that cheat. Especially when the penalty for cheating (or grand theft) is a ban that can be worked around.
💯 4
👍 2
🙌 2
👎 2
🚫 1
Avatar
I think I benefit the network, lot of data transfer over the hotspots, but i’m not gonna invest in open areas after this HIP
Avatar
Avatar
groot
Works best when they line up though, hence the HIP.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/08/2022 2:01 PM
Yeah, we've all suckled off the milk of a flawed POC system for too long and now people are used to it.
Avatar
Avatar
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸
@ElonTusk | 5Gchipped I think many of us actually, like most of the country, have the same wants and goals, but have different methods of getting there. Restricting or limiting what hotspots capabilities are is not the way to build a network. If your "approved" miner and legal set up can legitimately reach 160 km, then you should be allowed to run with that. Limiting that ability will not stop those that cheat. Especially when the penalty for cheating (or grand theft) is a ban that can be worked around.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/08/2022 2:02 PM
A 160km reach is useless to the network and invalid because you are talking about hotspot to hotspot, not sensor to hotspot.
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
That is fundimentally incorrect
Iot devices do not use poc
facepalm 1
Avatar
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 04/08/2022 2:02 PM
I feel like if you don’t have hotspots being affected by this hip u should kindly shut the hell up lmfao I thought I’d be greatly effected when it turns out only about 10% of my beacons sent on 1 SINGLE hotspot will be affected and I feel like I’m in the EXTREME case… the plight of being 5500ft above sea level 🤣
❤️ 2
Avatar
haha, you were one of the OTG's I was worried about, I was WRONG.
👍 1
🤝 1
Avatar
Avatar
dj013
Iot devices do not use poc
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/08/2022 2:03 PM
POC is proving you cover the IoT devices in the area...
Avatar
Avatar
r4wk
haha, you were one of the OTG's I was worried about, I was WRONG.
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 04/08/2022 2:04 PM
To be fair I’m a lil bummed I’ve reached the “cap” now their is nowhere to go lol
Avatar
nukador2k19 04/08/2022 2:04 PM
Wait. If they can create a blacklist why not a white list with legit setups?
Avatar
Avatar
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸
@ElonTusk | 5Gchipped I think many of us actually, like most of the country, have the same wants and goals, but have different methods of getting there. Restricting or limiting what hotspots capabilities are is not the way to build a network. If your "approved" miner and legal set up can legitimately reach 160 km, then you should be allowed to run with that. Limiting that ability will not stop those that cheat. Especially when the penalty for cheating (or grand theft) is a ban that can be worked around.
Nothing wrong with that. Which is why data transfer rewards are not affected. The issue is that right now we don't have that much data transfer, so we have to plug it with PoC rewards. The problem is that POC is not aligned with real world iot device usage (because hotspots are positioned way higher and with bigger antennas), which is what this HIP tries to improve. (edited)
💯 1
Avatar
Avatar
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions)
To be fair I’m a lil bummed I’ve reached the “cap” now their is nowhere to go lol
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/08/2022 2:05 PM
Yeah, it was fun to see how far we could ping 😄
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
POC is proving you cover the IoT devices in the area...
Iot devices can connect >100KM
facepalm 1
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Yeah, it was fun to see how far we could ping 😄
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 04/08/2022 2:05 PM
PB 277km 💪
🦾 1
Avatar
Avatar
dj013
Iot devices can connect >100KM
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/08/2022 2:06 PM
Avatar
Avatar
dj013
Iot devices can connect >100KM
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 04/08/2022 2:06 PM
They can…
Avatar
Avatar
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions)
They can…
Deleted User 04/08/2022 2:07 PM
check whats the world record of LORA 😉
Avatar
Avatar
dj013
Iot devices can connect >100KM
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 04/08/2022 2:07 PM
But this IoT device also can connect with over 500 hotspots that are closer…
Avatar
Avatar
Deleted User
check whats the world record of LORA 😉
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 04/08/2022 2:07 PM
Not the point..
Avatar
Avatar
Deleted User
check whats the world record of LORA 😉
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/08/2022 2:07 PM
Highway speed limits are not set by land speed records...
Avatar
Avatar
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions)
To be fair I’m a lil bummed I’ve reached the “cap” now their is nowhere to go lol
Truth, something I was literally just thinking to myself while getting a drink. Will we still see the distance of these 100+km witnesses? If so, people can still flex the long distance, just no reward for it.
Avatar
Avatar
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions)
I feel like if you don’t have hotspots being affected by this hip u should kindly shut the hell up lmfao I thought I’d be greatly effected when it turns out only about 10% of my beacons sent on 1 SINGLE hotspot will be affected and I feel like I’m in the EXTREME case… the plight of being 5500ft above sea level 🤣
I have to say, this takes character and I applaud you for it👍
💯 1
Avatar
Yep but if it affects legal users just to stop cheaters for a few days you should not do it (edited)
Avatar
Avatar
r4wk
Truth, something I was literally just thinking to myself while getting a drink. Will we still see the distance of these 100+km witnesses? If so, people can still flex the long distance, just no reward for it.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/08/2022 2:09 PM
Yeah, they still show up as invalid, just like if they were too close 🙂
👎 1
Avatar
Avatar
ricopt5
Nothing wrong with that. Which is why data transfer rewards are not affected. The issue is that right now we don't have that much data transfer, so we have to plug it with PoC rewards. The problem is that POC is not aligned with real world iot device usage (because hotspots are positioned way higher and with bigger antennas), which is what this HIP tries to improve. (edited)
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸 04/08/2022 2:09 PM
I get that. I know and COMPLETELY understand why we are all in this adventure. My point is, if you take away my available witnesses, while I am building the network, there is less incentive to build it in that area, thus, no way to read sensors that pass through that area. Once more hotspots are built in an open area, they will no longer have to reach 160 km to communicate, but until they are, one should have the ability to get a return on his investment.
💯 2
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Yeah, they still show up as invalid, just like if they were too close 🙂
Beautiful, so the distance chasers can still see it
❤️ 1
Avatar
Avatar
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸
I get that. I know and COMPLETELY understand why we are all in this adventure. My point is, if you take away my available witnesses, while I am building the network, there is less incentive to build it in that area, thus, no way to read sensors that pass through that area. Once more hotspots are built in an open area, they will no longer have to reach 160 km to communicate, but until they are, one should have the ability to get a return on his investment.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/08/2022 2:10 PM
Then other people will install there.
Avatar
Avatar
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸
I get that. I know and COMPLETELY understand why we are all in this adventure. My point is, if you take away my available witnesses, while I am building the network, there is less incentive to build it in that area, thus, no way to read sensors that pass through that area. Once more hotspots are built in an open area, they will no longer have to reach 160 km to communicate, but until they are, one should have the ability to get a return on his investment.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/08/2022 2:10 PM
Also nothing wrong with "lillypadding" installs out to the area.
Avatar
Avatar
groot
I have to say, this takes character and I applaud you for it👍
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 04/08/2022 2:11 PM
I’ve been thinking about this for some time and I must say I’ve really warmed up to it after especially after viewing the ETL data good on u for setting tht up 👍
🙏 3
Avatar
Avatar
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions)
I’ve been thinking about this for some time and I must say I’ve really warmed up to it after especially after viewing the ETL data good on u for setting tht up 👍
Ditto
🤘 1
Avatar
Avatar
r4wk
Beautiful, so the distance chasers can still see it
It also has an invalid reason just for that so it will be easy to see which ones hit the limit.
👍 1
Avatar
Avatar
r4wk
Truth, something I was literally just thinking to myself while getting a drink. Will we still see the distance of these 100+km witnesses? If so, people can still flex the long distance, just no reward for it.
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 04/08/2022 2:11 PM
U know I still b FLEXIN 💪
😄 1
Avatar
Avatar
groot
It also has an invalid reason just for that so it will be easy to see which ones hit the limit.
It'll stick out, yeah true
Avatar
Avatar
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions)
U know I still b FLEXIN 💪
I hope so! 💪
Avatar
I'd rather have a robust network with hotspots capable of 160km rather than a network of miners on the windowsill. Remove the incentive for well-built setups and you get a low-quality network.
💯 2
Avatar
Avatar
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions)
But this IoT device also can connect with over 500 hotspots that are closer…
If they are there….
Avatar
Avatar
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸
I get that. I know and COMPLETELY understand why we are all in this adventure. My point is, if you take away my available witnesses, while I am building the network, there is less incentive to build it in that area, thus, no way to read sensors that pass through that area. Once more hotspots are built in an open area, they will no longer have to reach 160 km to communicate, but until they are, one should have the ability to get a return on his investment.
Let's take it to an extreme.... The nearest hotspot is 1000km away. Should you be rewarded? Of course not, because you cannot prove that you can cover 1000km for iot devices. Same thing here, you cannot prove you can cover 100km for iot devices because 99% of the time, those same devices cannot communicate that distance. I get that you could probably be rewarded right now for 120km beacons, but unfortunately that's a flaw in PoC. One that is being exploited by gamers. (edited)
💯 2
Avatar
Avatar
dj013
If they are there….
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 04/08/2022 2:14 PM
That’s a blanket statement…
Avatar
Avatar
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions)
That’s a blanket statement…
Same as yours
Avatar
Avatar
TotallyBro
I'd rather have a robust network with hotspots capable of 160km rather than a network of miners on the windowsill. Remove the incentive for well-built setups and you get a low-quality network.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/08/2022 2:15 PM
A "well built" setup is not one that is too far from sensors to be useful.
Avatar
Avatar
dj013
Same as yours
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 04/08/2022 2:16 PM
Did u put your hotspot in the ETL?
Avatar
I will lose 10 witnesses and that’s no big deal but this is a fundamental wrong turn
Avatar
Avatar
dj013
Same as yours
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 04/08/2022 2:17 PM
I’m actually getting nerfed by this hip but tbh it’s not even gonna make a difference maybe 1-2 invalids per beacon sent thts it….
Avatar
Avatar
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions)
I’m actually getting nerfed by this hip but tbh it’s not even gonna make a difference maybe 1-2 invalids per beacon sent thts it….
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 04/08/2022 2:19 PM
Dude, where is your guard
Avatar
Avatar
dj013
I will lose 10 witnesses and that’s no big deal but this is a fundamental wrong turn
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 04/08/2022 2:19 PM
I’m losing about 10 witnesses as-well basically everything in Mexico im gonna lose which I’m kinda sad about….
Avatar
Avatar
dj013
I will lose 10 witnesses and that’s no big deal but this is a fundamental wrong turn
The "fundamental wrong turn" was unfortunately made in the beginning by allowing hotspots to be rewarded for useless coverage, which is now being actively exploited by gamers. (edited)
💯 1
Avatar
Avatar
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪
Dude, where is your guard
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 04/08/2022 2:20 PM
JeFF is always on watching…
🤣 1
Avatar
Avatar
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions)
JeFF is always on watching…
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 04/08/2022 2:20 PM
Thank god, i thought we lost him ablobsalute
Avatar
Avatar
ricopt5
The "fundamental wrong turn" was unfortunately made in the beginning by allowing hotspots to be rewarded for useless coverage, which is now being actively exploited by gamers. (edited)
Useless coverage is what you find in city’s
Avatar
Avatar
dj013
Useless coverage is what you find in city’s
Useless coverage in cities is tackled by hip17, useless coverage in high distances is tackled by this hip
💯 1
Avatar
Avatar
ricopt5
Useless coverage in cities is tackled by hip17, useless coverage in high distances is tackled by this hip
In rural areas there’s no such thing as useless coverage, you should be glad there is some signal. Lora is the perfect carrier for that
Avatar
Yeah, this hip really promotes people to install hot spots less than 100km away from each other, which does make sense looking at it from a sensor point of view
💯 1
Avatar
Avatar
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪
Dude, where is your guard
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/08/2022 2:24 PM
HIP58 budget cuts 😉
🥲 1
Avatar
Avatar
dj013
In rural areas there’s no such thing as useless coverage, you should be glad there is some signal. Lora is the perfect carrier for that
Ok let me rephrase. Misrewarded coverage for high distances is tackled by this HIP
👍 1
Avatar
Avatar
ricopt5
Let's take it to an extreme.... The nearest hotspot is 1000km away. Should you be rewarded? Of course not, because you cannot prove that you can cover 1000km for iot devices. Same thing here, you cannot prove you can cover 100km for iot devices because 99% of the time, those same devices cannot communicate that distance. I get that you could probably be rewarded right now for 120km beacons, but unfortunately that's a flaw in PoC. One that is being exploited by gamers. (edited)
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸 04/08/2022 2:25 PM
Helium would have never made it out of Texas if it didn't reward those that took the gamble, reached out longer distances, and set up miners outside of populated areas. It was OK to reward them (POC) when sensors couldn't possibly reach that far. My point is, if you don't incentify expansion, then IoT devices would only be on the Helium Network in Texas. (edited)
👍 1
Avatar
Avatar
r4wk
Yeah, this hip really promotes people to install hot spots less than 100km away from each other, which does make sense looking at it from a sensor point of view
You use other sensors there, powered ones
Avatar
Avatar
ricopt5
Ok let me rephrase. Misrewarded coverage for high distances is tackled by this HIP
This hip hopes to cut some treaters (for a few days… ) useless HIP
👎 1
👍 1
Avatar
Avatar
dj013
This hip hopes to cut some treaters (for a few days… ) useless HIP
I can see you don't want to accept the truth, so I won't waste my time anymore
💯 2
Avatar
how does a network that does nothing but witness itself ever become sustainable ? you need some to USE the network, PoC is not "using" the network
💯 2
Avatar
Offgrids will now be deployed with 2db antennas 🙂 so you don't get too many invalids and to provide worse coverage.
🤣 1
Avatar
Avatar
ricopt5
I can see you don't want to accept the truth, so I won't waste my time anymore
Your Truth…
Avatar
Avatar
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸
Helium would have never made it out of Texas if it didn't reward those that took the gamble, reached out longer distances, and set up miners outside of populated areas. It was OK to reward them (POC) when sensors couldn't possibly reach that far. My point is, if you don't incentify expansion, then IoT devices would only be on the Helium Network in Texas. (edited)
Hip15/hip17 are the ones supposed to incentivize expansion by slashing the rewards of dense areas. My opinion is that it's not doing enough, but that's off topic
👍 2
Avatar
I still dont understad why its not more of an opportunity if you need to bridge the network out in 100km segments . . (edited)
Avatar
Avatar
belzebut
Offgrids will now be deployed with 2db antennas 🙂 so you don't get too many invalids and to provide worse coverage.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/08/2022 2:30 PM
Funny, since dbi does not equal distance...
Avatar
Avatar
dj013
Your Truth…
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/08/2022 2:31 PM
There is factual truth and not fact. "Personal truth" is BS
Avatar
Avatar
BiggieJohn
how does a network that does nothing but witness itself ever become sustainable ? you need some to USE the network, PoC is not "using" the network
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸 04/08/2022 2:31 PM
From the beginning POC was meant to compensate people for their investment in the network. Once the network was built everywhere they want it, then data will be the compensation. There are still many areas that have no hotspots that we need to have an IoT network in.
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Funny, since dbi does not equal distance...
It does equal higher RSSI which is lost over distance so yeah, it equals distance for this particular matter
Avatar
Avatar
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸
From the beginning POC was meant to compensate people for their investment in the network. Once the network was built everywhere they want it, then data will be the compensation. There are still many areas that have no hotspots that we need to have an IoT network in.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/08/2022 2:32 PM
Yes. This dos not stop hotspot installs in those areas.
Avatar
Avatar
belzebut
It does equal higher RSSI which is lost over distance so yeah, it equals distance for this particular matter
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/08/2022 2:33 PM
No, line of sight is the factor for distance. (edited)
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
No, line of sight is the factor for distance. (edited)
You don't make any sense buddy, you can have line of sight 1000km away but if signal is weak it will not get there
Avatar
Avatar
belzebut
Offgrids will now be deployed with 2db antennas 🙂 so you don't get too many invalids and to provide worse coverage.
Honestly, for sensors it's probably better to have a low dBi omni antenna than a high dBi one.
Avatar
Avatar
ricopt5
Honestly, for sensors it's probably better to have a low dBi omni antenna than a high dBi one.
It's better to have whatever has the better signal. If you have the antenna on the roof and the sensor in the basement, yeah probably
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Yes. This dos not stop hotspot installs in those areas.
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸 04/08/2022 2:36 PM
Correct! It only slows down the ROI for those putting the hotspots in, by taking away some of their potential witnesses.
Avatar
Avatar
belzebut
You don't make any sense buddy, you can have line of sight 1000km away but if signal is weak it will not get there
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/08/2022 2:37 PM
The signal power isn't magically changed by dbi facepalm
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
The signal power isn't magically changed by dbi facepalm
So what does a higher dbi antenna do then?
Avatar
Avatar
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸
Correct! It only slows down the ROI for those putting the hotspots in, by taking away some of their potential witnesses.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/08/2022 2:37 PM
Not if you install more hotspots.
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Not if you install more hotspots.
ROI is per hotspot so that doesn't make any bit of sense :))
Avatar
Avatar
belzebut
So what does a higher dbi antenna do then?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/08/2022 2:38 PM
Changes the field shape. Picture a flashlight that can focus (like the old maglights)
Avatar
Avatar
belzebut
It's better to have whatever has the better signal. If you have the antenna on the roof and the sensor in the basement, yeah probably
It's better to have whatever has the better signal.
Exactly my point. A 3dbi antenna can provide better signal to a sensor than a 8 dbi one, depending on the location
(edited)
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Not if you install more hotspots.
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸 04/08/2022 2:39 PM
Now you are just "f" ing with me.
💯 2
Avatar
Avatar
belzebut
ROI is per hotspot so that doesn't make any bit of sense :))
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/08/2022 2:39 PM
Yes it does. You have more hotspots in range for POC, and you are providing useful data coverage.
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Changes the field shape. Picture a flashlight that can focus (like the old maglights)
So which one has the higher signal strength at the horizon? (0 degrees)
Avatar
Avatar
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸
Now you are just "f" ing with me.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/08/2022 2:39 PM
I'm not.
Avatar
Avatar
belzebut
So which one has the higher signal strength at the horizon? (0 degrees)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/08/2022 2:40 PM
The power output of the antenna/flashlight doesn't change. The field density does.
14:41
Inverse square law still applies
Avatar
Avatar
belzebut
So which one has the higher signal strength at the horizon? (0 degrees)
A 10000dbi one. But that means you will only cover sensors that are on the horizon line, which is useless
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
The power output of the antenna/flashlight doesn't change. The field density does.
So a high dbi is just worse in all aspects compared to a low dbi then, cause it provide the same power just at a narrower angle?
Avatar
Avatar
belzebut
So a high dbi is just worse in all aspects compared to a low dbi then, cause it provide the same power just at a narrower angle?
He said "output". The output power indeed doesn't change with the antenna
Avatar
Avatar
belzebut
So a high dbi is just worse in all aspects compared to a low dbi then, cause it provide the same power just at a narrower angle?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/08/2022 2:43 PM
for the most part, yes. There are some situations where it can be useful, but for the most part 3-6 dbi is good for most installs. (edited)
Avatar
Avatar
ricopt5
He said "output". The output power indeed doesn't change with the antenna
Irrelevant, you don't transmit to a sensor, you receive from it
Avatar
Avatar
belzebut
Irrelevant, you don't transmit to a sensor, you receive from it
You can also transmit. A sensor needs to join the network, and can also request downlinks (edited)
Avatar
Avatar
belzebut
Irrelevant, you don't transmit to a sensor, you receive from it
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/08/2022 2:44 PM
The tx signal from the sensor still needs to be in that "cone" (2D) of rx area for the hotspot.
Avatar
Avatar
belzebut
So a high dbi is just worse in all aspects compared to a low dbi then, cause it provide the same power just at a narrower angle?
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸 04/08/2022 2:45 PM
Because of the curvature of the Earth, you will only reach so far. A higher dBi gives you a bit more power to go through obstacles like trees.
👌 1
Avatar
My current project makes the iot device RX/TX but it's a special case 😄
Avatar
Avatar
belzebut
Irrelevant, you don't transmit to a sensor, you receive from it
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/08/2022 2:45 PM
Think of trying to see something while looking through a straw vs looking through a door
Avatar
Avatar
ricopt5
You can also transmit. A sensor needs to join the network, and can also request downlinks (edited)
Ok, didn't know about that. For that instance is not that relevant then, but it is for receiving
Avatar
Avatar
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸
Because of the curvature of the Earth, you will only reach so far. A higher dBi gives you a bit more power to go through obstacles like trees.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/08/2022 2:46 PM
Yes 🙂 (edited)
Avatar
THEY YELL LOUDER
😆 1
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/08/2022 2:46 PM
higher dbi can help "punch though" some barriers that attunuate (weaken) the signal. (edited)
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Think of trying to see something while looking through a straw vs looking through a door
That's a poor analogy, the one with the laser was better. You can look for a bit at a flashlight cause it's weaker (less dbi) but a laser will burn your retina because of the power
👍 2
Avatar
DigitalHuevos🥚 04/08/2022 2:47 PM
80 percent of rewards is witness. You want big ears not yelling loud! (edited)
💯 2
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Yes 🙂 (edited)
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸 04/08/2022 2:47 PM
... So one can more easily reach 160 km Lol
Avatar
Avatar
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸
Because of the curvature of the Earth, you will only reach so far. A higher dBi gives you a bit more power to go through obstacles like trees.
Earth curved? What is this, we all know straight lines are straight.
🤣 1
Avatar
Avatar
DigitalHuevos🥚
80 percent of rewards is witness. You want big ears not yelling loud! (edited)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/08/2022 2:48 PM
Closer to 75-80%, but yes 🙂
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Closer to 75-80%, but yes 🙂
DigitalHuevos🥚 04/08/2022 2:48 PM
Corrected 😁
🙂 1
Avatar
Avatar
Fizzy
Earth curved? What is this, we all know straight lines are straight.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/08/2022 2:48 PM
Get out of here, Euclid! 😛
14:48
lol
Avatar
Avatar
DigitalHuevos🥚
80 percent of rewards is witness. You want big ears not yelling loud! (edited)
You should optimize for bidirectional coverage as that’s what the network needs.
👍 1
💯 1
Avatar
Avatar
DigitalHuevos🥚
80 percent of rewards is witness. You want big ears not yelling loud! (edited)
That statement is proof that the reward scheme is still not ideal because you should have big ears AND yell loud since iot devices can also require downlinks
Avatar
Avatar
groot
You should optimize for bidirectional coverage as that’s what the network needs.
DigitalHuevos🥚 04/08/2022 2:49 PM
That comes with big ears if I'm not mistaken? Just a screaming beacon is not of much use?
Avatar
Avatar
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸
... So one can more easily reach 160 km Lol
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/08/2022 2:50 PM
I'm not saying dbi doesn't have any affect, just saying it is dwarfed by the effect of line of sight. 🙂
Avatar
Avatar
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸
... So one can more easily reach 160 km Lol
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/08/2022 2:50 PM
But again, inverse square law still bites ya in the ass 😉
Avatar
Avatar
DigitalHuevos🥚
That comes with big ears if I'm not mistaken? Just a screaming beacon is not of much use?
As long as you also have the ability to scream back loud enough for their tiny ears to hear, sure.
💯 4
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
I'm not saying dbi doesn't have any affect, just saying it is dwarfed by the effect of line of sight. 🙂
yeah but what you can hear with a low dbi you can probably hear better with a higher dbi which means better data transfer
Avatar
Avatar
belzebut
yeah but what you can hear with a low dbi you can probably hear better with a higher dbi which means better data transfer
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/08/2022 2:53 PM
With good LOS, a 3dbi has hit 200km. What good is a 9dbi in light of that? lol
☝️ 2
14:55
And don't forget, dbi is not linear. It's logarithmic
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
With good LOS, a 3dbi has hit 200km. What good is a 9dbi in light of that? lol
As i said, it will receive with a better signal. At the moment Helium is not incentivising signal strength and quality. A witness with -140db and -20SNR will earn the same as a witness with -100db and positive SNR. That will make a big difference for data, i know you guys like talking about data
Avatar
Avatar
belzebut
As i said, it will receive with a better signal. At the moment Helium is not incentivising signal strength and quality. A witness with -140db and -20SNR will earn the same as a witness with -100db and positive SNR. That will make a big difference for data, i know you guys like talking about data
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/08/2022 2:58 PM
Your ears can be as big as you want, but if the other person in the noisy nightclub on the other side of the room is trying to whisper to you, you're never going to hear them 🙂
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Your ears can be as big as you want, but if the other person in the noisy nightclub on the other side of the room is trying to whisper to you, you're never going to hear them 🙂
still missing my point as usual and providing an analogy that has nothing to do with it 🙂
facepalm 1
Avatar
Avatar
groot
As long as you also have the ability to scream back loud enough for their tiny ears to hear, sure.
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 04/08/2022 3:00 PM
Tell that to my EXTREME gain sector YAGI antenna….
🍆 3
💪 2
Avatar
Avatar
groot
You should optimize for bidirectional coverage as that’s what the network needs.
I just had an idea. But it's off topic. What if POC worked like this: Challenger would challenge a random hotspot and that hotspot would beacon (just like what we now have). The difference is that witnesses, would have to beacon in the 14 subsequent blocks (one block for each witness so there's no collision) and the original challangee would have to witness those beacons. If bidirectionality was proven, then the hotspot pair would receive a reward. Since we now have bidireccionality, we could also improve the protocol to minimize gaming.
Avatar
Deleted User 04/08/2022 3:01 PM
little prisent for you all
15:01
go study a bit ....
❓ 3
15:01
🙂
15:01
and you will understand a lot !
🤨 1
Avatar
Avatar
belzebut
still missing my point as usual and providing an analogy that has nothing to do with it 🙂
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/08/2022 3:03 PM
You can't receive the signal if they can't reach you, no matter how high your dbi is.
👍 1
Avatar
Avatar
ricopt5
I just had an idea. But it's off topic. What if POC worked like this: Challenger would challenge a random hotspot and that hotspot would beacon (just like what we now have). The difference is that witnesses, would have to beacon in the 14 subsequent blocks (one block for each witness so there's no collision) and the original challangee would have to witness those beacons. If bidirectionality was proven, then the hotspot pair would receive a reward. Since we now have bidireccionality, we could also improve the protocol to minimize gaming.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/08/2022 3:04 PM
Likely because bidirectional is actually fairly rare for RF as I understand it. (edited)
Avatar
Deleted User 04/08/2022 3:04 PM
i don't know i'm allowerd to share this link
15:05
i wait approval of groot ....
15:05
don't want risk a ban 😉
Avatar
Avatar
Deleted User
i don't know i'm allowerd to share this link
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/08/2022 3:05 PM
We'll let you know. No one is getting banned here 🙂 (edited)
😆 1
15:06
..'cept maybe @Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) with his antenna pron. 😉
Avatar
He got banned 4 times already 😅
😆 2
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
You can't receive the signal if they can't reach you, no matter how high your dbi is.
It's always a combination of both. You have no control over the transmitter, only over the receiver so you might as well do the best job at receiving.
👍 1
Avatar
Deleted User 04/08/2022 3:06 PM
boris johnson be quite 😉
banhammer 1
😂 1
Avatar
Avatar
Deleted User
boris johnson be quite 😉
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/08/2022 3:07 PM
No politics please 🙂
Avatar
Avatar
belzebut
It's always a combination of both. You have no control over the transmitter, only over the receiver so you might as well do the best job at receiving.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/08/2022 3:07 PM
🤣 4
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Click to see attachment 🖼️
ok dude, i'm out 🙂 i get it, logic is not your strong point, i'll only get tilted failing to make you understand
Avatar
Avatar
belzebut
ok dude, i'm out 🙂 i get it, logic is not your strong point, i'll only get tilted failing to make you understand
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 04/08/2022 3:10 PM
😆 1
Avatar
Deleted User 04/08/2022 3:11 PM
@Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 i'm allowed to share a study book ?
15:11
or this is enough to get banned ?
Avatar
Avatar
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪
Click to see attachment 🖼️
Deleted User 04/08/2022 3:12 PM
please no relegions .... :p
Avatar
Avatar
belzebut
ok dude, i'm out 🙂 i get it, logic is not your strong point, i'll only get tilted failing to make you understand
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/08/2022 3:16 PM
Logic eh? Sure buddy. Take your unfounded insults elsewhere.
👎 1
Avatar
Avatar
Deleted User
or this is enough to get banned ?
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 04/08/2022 3:17 PM
Wat, why are you replying to me?
Avatar
Deleted User 04/08/2022 3:19 PM
i asked you a question if i could share here a study book or if this will result in a ban ?
15:20
gute laune !
Avatar
Avatar
Deleted User
i asked you a question if i could share here a study book or if this will result in a ban ?
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 04/08/2022 3:20 PM
Depends, unless you are using an alternate discord account to circumvent a ban. You surely aren't right 😉
😆 2
Avatar
Avatar
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪
Depends, unless you are using an alternate discord account to circumvent a ban. You surely aren't right 😉
DigitalHuevos🥚 04/08/2022 3:43 PM
C-line?
😆 1
Avatar
It has already been noted plenty of times that sensors are not likely to be heard from 100 km away. But let's also remember that for most sensors the first hotspot to hear the message and forward it on is the only hotspot to be paid. So there is very little reason to overlap another hotspot; other than to have some redundancy and to cover shadows of coverage created by buildings, walls, trees, hills, etc. And it makes even less sense to be far away from the sensor given that there is likely a hotspot closer that will hear the message first. So we know that currently most, if not all, sensors are only broadcasting 30-50 km (they are generally running off small batteries). So despite this HIP limiting hotspots to 100 km PoC and even though you are allowed to receive data from more than 100 km away, it makes very little sense to be more than 50 km from where the sensors are located. It makes little sense to be further away from the sensors than another hotspot is from said sensors. The only places it makes any sense to be spacing hotspots 99 km from another hotspot is if you are covering the barren plains between cities or the back woods of a mountain area; and then you are screwed if someone props up a hotspot right in the middle. A good setup is no more than 30 km from the sensor source and being closer to the sensor source than another hotspot is even better. Otherwise, you will not be getting any DCs for passing traffic; and that is the point of the network.
👍 7
💯 5
👆 4
passed 3
👎 1
Avatar
No, this is just a way to reduce already reduced earnings. I can't see how it is Helium improvement?
👎 1
👍 1
Fizzy pinned a message to this channel. 04/08/2022 5:27 PM
Avatar
I have yet to see an argument/analysis against this HIP that has a well thought out in 1 post, and is not "But MY 100+ witnesses sirs." Someone prove me wrong and I will pin it. (edited)
Avatar
In this sentence: "It has already been noted plenty of times that sensors are not likely to be heard from 100 km away." That is true. But it is different hearing hotspots roof-to-roof, compared to dog's collar (tracker) with very small antenna, low power and many obstacles in between. Proof of coverage at 100 km is proof that hotspot is capable of hearing such weak signals at least 1 km away. Everyone here thinking about big cities with thousands of hotspots, but imagine small town with 5 hotspots. Redundancy? Tell poor people to buy more hotspots with promise of reduced earnings every so in the future.
Avatar
Avatar
Milan
In this sentence: "It has already been noted plenty of times that sensors are not likely to be heard from 100 km away." That is true. But it is different hearing hotspots roof-to-roof, compared to dog's collar (tracker) with very small antenna, low power and many obstacles in between. Proof of coverage at 100 km is proof that hotspot is capable of hearing such weak signals at least 1 km away. Everyone here thinking about big cities with thousands of hotspots, but imagine small town with 5 hotspots. Redundancy? Tell poor people to buy more hotspots with promise of reduced earnings every so in the future.
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 04/08/2022 5:47 PM
Show me your ETL then talk..
Avatar
What is 'ETL'?
Avatar
Avatar
Milan
In this sentence: "It has already been noted plenty of times that sensors are not likely to be heard from 100 km away." That is true. But it is different hearing hotspots roof-to-roof, compared to dog's collar (tracker) with very small antenna, low power and many obstacles in between. Proof of coverage at 100 km is proof that hotspot is capable of hearing such weak signals at least 1 km away. Everyone here thinking about big cities with thousands of hotspots, but imagine small town with 5 hotspots. Redundancy? Tell poor people to buy more hotspots with promise of reduced earnings every so in the future.
Do you have sensors and a case study on this?
Avatar
Avatar
Milan
Yes, four sensors. Look at my town: https://mappers.helium.com/uplinks/hex/891e1aaf44bffff
4 gps's connected to mappers?
Avatar
No, two mappers, Glamos and Draguino.
Avatar
That already mapped coverage looks good to me. But anyway, is the argument that a hotspot 100k away from this city is going to provide data coverage that the other 5 are not somehow?
Avatar
Darn. I did not record drive around with zero receptions. I should to do it next time. Look at this coverage. It is drive all the way to the east, yet there is 50 km break without any hex.
Avatar
Avatar
Milan
Darn. I did not record drive around with zero receptions. I should to do it next time. Look at this coverage. It is drive all the way to the east, yet there is 50 km break without any hex.
Ah, I use Cargo.helium to visualize those gaps. ic what you mean
Avatar
Avatar
Milan
Darn. I did not record drive around with zero receptions. I should to do it next time. Look at this coverage. It is drive all the way to the east, yet there is 50 km break without any hex.
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 04/08/2022 6:07 PM
This hip has no effect on how mapper coverage functions
Avatar
I spent 5 mins on this. This is your 100km range. ^ And yes like said above, this is ONLY poc rewards.
18:08
Actuially, thats only 50 lol
18:09
If the 5 hotspots in your town can not get the coverage needed/expected in town, then they need to be setup better ultimately.
Avatar
Okay, I surrender. This is only money. Spent in vain. 😦
Avatar
Avatar
Milan
No, this is just a way to reduce already reduced earnings. I can't see how it is Helium improvement?
The amount of HNT earned per epoch is defined per the schedule. If you have fewer valid POC transactions in an epoch, it just means each one earns more.
Avatar
Maybe make it 200 and be done with the arguments?
Avatar
Avatar
backtran
Maybe make it 200 and be done with the arguments?
No, mine witnesses 250, make it 300.
🤣 1
Avatar
Avatar
KeithR
It has already been noted plenty of times that sensors are not likely to be heard from 100 km away. But let's also remember that for most sensors the first hotspot to hear the message and forward it on is the only hotspot to be paid. So there is very little reason to overlap another hotspot; other than to have some redundancy and to cover shadows of coverage created by buildings, walls, trees, hills, etc. And it makes even less sense to be far away from the sensor given that there is likely a hotspot closer that will hear the message first. So we know that currently most, if not all, sensors are only broadcasting 30-50 km (they are generally running off small batteries). So despite this HIP limiting hotspots to 100 km PoC and even though you are allowed to receive data from more than 100 km away, it makes very little sense to be more than 50 km from where the sensors are located. It makes little sense to be further away from the sensors than another hotspot is from said sensors. The only places it makes any sense to be spacing hotspots 99 km from another hotspot is if you are covering the barren plains between cities or the back woods of a mountain area; and then you are screwed if someone props up a hotspot right in the middle. A good setup is no more than 30 km from the sensor source and being closer to the sensor source than another hotspot is even better. Otherwise, you will not be getting any DCs for passing traffic; and that is the point of the network.
1. Can you provide the link budget calculations for LoRa devices? And what antenna gain/output power have you used for these calculations? 2. Can we know more about the behaviour of this patch? Are we going to get invalid witnesses due to being too far or will they be filtered out before the PoC evaluation? 3. Is this future proof? Maybe sensors in the future will have much longer range if they improve their antenna gain and output power? 4. What kind of channel model did you consider to get the above mentioned range? Was it considered only FSPL? 5. How the network is losing by supporting PoC over 100km? We want to calculate the maximum range, right? How filtering out the coverage would help? 6. Can you provide statistics for the following: a. Number of hotspots which have POC over 100km. b. Number of sensors that achieved connection over 100km. For the b we need to wait more till more sensors will enter the network but for the a we need to know how many people will be impacted by this patch. The voting shows that 10% doesn't like this patch. If we are talking about 10% of miners having POC over 100km something is really wrong with the considerations of the team. (edited)
Avatar
Avatar
mixtri
1. Can you provide the link budget calculations for LoRa devices? And what antenna gain/output power have you used for these calculations? 2. Can we know more about the behaviour of this patch? Are we going to get invalid witnesses due to being too far or will they be filtered out before the PoC evaluation? 3. Is this future proof? Maybe sensors in the future will have much longer range if they improve their antenna gain and output power? 4. What kind of channel model did you consider to get the above mentioned range? Was it considered only FSPL? 5. How the network is losing by supporting PoC over 100km? We want to calculate the maximum range, right? How filtering out the coverage would help? 6. Can you provide statistics for the following: a. Number of hotspots which have POC over 100km. b. Number of sensors that achieved connection over 100km. For the b we need to wait more till more sensors will enter the network but for the a we need to know how many people will be impacted by this patch. The voting shows that 10% doesn't like this patch. If we are talking about 10% of miners having POC over 100km something is really wrong with the considerations of the team. (edited)
Maybe you replied to me by accident? 1 through 5 are in the HIP itself. 6a would be estimated from the sample data provided in the HIP. 6b would seem to be a very small number given what is in the HIP about sensor use-cases. In 6c you suggest that if there are 10% 'no' votes and 10% witnesses over 100km, that would be bad.. Wouldn't the first assumption of those two data be that the folks being cut off are upset about it and thus voted 'no'?
💯 1
Avatar
Avatar
KeithR
Maybe you replied to me by accident? 1 through 5 are in the HIP itself. 6a would be estimated from the sample data provided in the HIP. 6b would seem to be a very small number given what is in the HIP about sensor use-cases. In 6c you suggest that if there are 10% 'no' votes and 10% witnesses over 100km, that would be bad.. Wouldn't the first assumption of those two data be that the folks being cut off are upset about it and thus voted 'no'?
I replied to you since I saw you were writing some numbers and I was wondering from where these numbers are coming from. I didn't find this information in the HIP when I looked at it, if you have a link would help me to look into. Considering the network side, the PoC is important not only for the sensors but for knowing of how the whole coverage of network looks like. If you place a sensor between two miners which have distance 150km then it you place someone in the middle (75km) then you know that he has coverage from two hotspots. If in the future you can do something like soft-combining of packages and you do error correction you might get very good results, even with the current sensors technology. Setting a limitation of coverage right now doesn't really convince me for what it really offers to the network...
👎 2
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Yeah, they still show up as invalid, just like if they were too close 🙂
Completely wrong logic. You can control how close you are but not how far you are. Especially when the link budget is huge. One more proof that helium team is not aware of RF technology and they don’t know what they are doing. Cheers
👎 2
👍 1
😂 1
🤡 1
Avatar
Avatar
mixtri
Completely wrong logic. You can control how close you are but not how far you are. Especially when the link budget is huge. One more proof that helium team is not aware of RF technology and they don’t know what they are doing. Cheers
Maybe you can offer your services?
Avatar
Avatar
backtran
Maybe you can offer your services?
Is this a mature enough reply? Even if we accept the fact of pre filtering of witnesses >100km, the fact that this team considers them as invalid is totally wrong. I’m not sure why, can you explain the logic behind it?
02:38
Let’s say I’m at one location on the top of the hill. I have witnesses in 5km but I have also at 130km. It happens that they witness me and I witness them. Why should I get punished for this?
Avatar
Avatar
mixtri
Is this a mature enough reply? Even if we accept the fact of pre filtering of witnesses >100km, the fact that this team considers them as invalid is totally wrong. I’m not sure why, can you explain the logic behind it?
Plenty of people in the Helium community offer their services, in one way or another.
Avatar
Avatar
mixtri
Let’s say I’m at one location on the top of the hill. I have witnesses in 5km but I have also at 130km. It happens that they witness me and I witness them. Why should I get punished for this?
Read the HIP and the debate above. It’s a rehash. (edited)
Avatar
I wonder if there is a correlation between peoples’ motivations and their usage of ‘miner’ versus ‘hotspot’.
Avatar
Avatar
backtran
Plenty of people in the Helium community offer their services, in one way or another.
I’m trying to explain here some things but some people who consider themselves as #knoweverything they give non senses replies and dislike me. I read the hip. Should we all agree with it? The statistics they present are just capped on the willing result. I could argue that the range should be 150km with another statistic analysis approach. Where this discussion could lead? There are much better ways to fight gaming. If a tooth is causing pain, you try to fix it. Not removing it directly. Furthermore, democracy means that you should have one vote. Even if you are Elon musk or mixtri. Otherwise voting is just for the shake of voting. Maybe democracy works like this in some countries but not in mine.
Avatar
Avatar
mixtri
I’m trying to explain here some things but some people who consider themselves as #knoweverything they give non senses replies and dislike me. I read the hip. Should we all agree with it? The statistics they present are just capped on the willing result. I could argue that the range should be 150km with another statistic analysis approach. Where this discussion could lead? There are much better ways to fight gaming. If a tooth is causing pain, you try to fix it. Not removing it directly. Furthermore, democracy means that you should have one vote. Even if you are Elon musk or mixtri. Otherwise voting is just for the shake of voting. Maybe democracy works like this in some countries but not in mine.
Off topic but am I to understand you propose a person with 1HNT has the same voting power as someone who has been working hard and accumulating say 1000 hnt?
Avatar
Avatar
backtran
Off topic but am I to understand you propose a person with 1HNT has the same voting power as someone who has been working hard and accumulating say 1000 hnt?
That’s how democracy works. Right? You have one vote even if you own the half country.
Avatar
Avatar
mixtri
That’s how democracy works. Right? You have one vote even if you own the half country.
That’s not helium. It’s not modeled after the Westminster system.
👍 1
Avatar
Voting issues and strategies are over in HIP31. If the tooth is rotten to the core (which these immoral cheating fucks are), then the tooth comes out. You really should do the analyses so that your 150km argument can be considered. The HIP provided lots of data and some data was also presented here in the channel. The argument for 100km is pretty sound. (edited)
💯 1
Avatar
Avatar
backtran
That’s not helium. It’s not modeled after the Westminster system.
Ok so voting is not representing the community but the big owners. This is what I’m understanding. I’m the one that spent hours in reporting hotspots for denylist. I hate cheating. I would see this as temporal patch and not a solution.
🥱 1
Avatar
Avatar
backtran
Off topic but am I to understand you propose a person with 1HNT has the same voting power as someone who has been working hard and accumulating say 1000 hnt?
The unfortunate counter to your argument is that the rich person with 1000 HNT has just as much voting power as the hard working HODLer.
Avatar
Avatar
KeithR
The unfortunate counter to your argument is that the rich person with 1000 HNT has just as much voting power as the hard working HODLer.
That’s true - it’s hard to have a perfect system
Avatar
Avatar
mixtri
Ok so voting is not representing the community but the big owners. This is what I’m understanding. I’m the one that spent hours in reporting hotspots for denylist. I hate cheating. I would see this as temporal patch and not a solution.
The community has most of the HNT.
Avatar
this is really not okay, every answer is bent towards the desired outcome. This HIP will only do minimally what it was created for and should therefore be voted out.
👎 1
Avatar
Avatar
Fizzy
I have yet to see an argument/analysis against this HIP that has a well thought out in 1 post, and is not "But MY 100+ witnesses sirs." Someone prove me wrong and I will pin it. (edited)
What 100+ Witnesses? You are mean person! Is that close to 100+ witnesses? :
Avatar
Will this HIP really help to stop gamers like this one, he still has a lot of witnesses in those 100km https://explorer.helium.com/hotspots/11i8X1BepbbtprqkJNjtgP75znjTYxYimfyUqP4jbfEYm6ruU6c/activity
Helium Explorer is a Block Explorer and Analytics Platform for Helium, a decentralized wireless connectivity platform
Avatar
Avatar
GS-Crypto
Will this HIP really help to stop gamers like this one, he still has a lot of witnesses in those 100km https://explorer.helium.com/hotspots/11i8X1BepbbtprqkJNjtgP75znjTYxYimfyUqP4jbfEYm6ruU6c/activity
It will not. Those who cheat maybe even does not have a device - instead using some Linux software on PC or Raspberry Pi to make spoofing. This HIP will hurt me and other people living in sparse populated area.
Avatar
Static Laws 04/09/2022 4:12 AM
Will this cause invalid witnesses over 100 miles or will the witnesses go to closer available hotspots?
Avatar
Avatar
mixtri
Completely wrong logic. You can control how close you are but not how far you are. Especially when the link budget is huge. One more proof that helium team is not aware of RF technology and they don’t know what they are doing. Cheers
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/09/2022 4:25 AM
You need to re-read. That's literally how it will work.
Avatar
This person does NOT have a hotspot, nor antenna. Instead some software on LInux machine. You are punishing honest people with good antennas and RX amplifiers.
👎 1
facepalm 1
Avatar
Avatar
mixtri
Is this a mature enough reply? Even if we accept the fact of pre filtering of witnesses >100km, the fact that this team considers them as invalid is totally wrong. I’m not sure why, can you explain the logic behind it?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/09/2022 4:27 AM
The fact that you're not sure why proves you haven't even read the hip
Avatar
Avatar
Milan
This person does NOT have a hotspot, nor antenna. Instead some software on LInux machine. You are punishing honest people with good antennas and RX amplifiers.
Someone has the equipment… they don’t get those beacons from the internet.
Avatar
Avatar
Milan
This person does NOT have a hotspot, nor antenna. Instead some software on LInux machine. You are punishing honest people with good antennas and RX amplifiers.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/09/2022 4:31 AM
The beaconer in this case is not the cheater. It's the witnesses.
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
The beaconer in this case is not the cheater. It's the witnesses.
How you know that witness has a proper device? Or just Linux machine with some software which collect data over the internet?
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
The fact that you're not sure why proves you haven't even read the hip
I have 14 witnesses today. 8 of them are at 30km and 6 of them at 120km. After the HIP the reward for the beacon I'll send will be the same. Is this what you are saying?
Avatar
Avatar
Milan
How you know that witness has a proper device? Or just Linux machine with some software which collect data over the internet?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/09/2022 4:37 AM
If you'd bother to do more than glance at the witness lines, you'd know. (edited)
Avatar
Avatar
Milan
How you know that witness has a proper device? Or just Linux machine with some software which collect data over the internet?
How would they get those witnesses without a proper device?
Avatar
Avatar
mixtri
I have 14 witnesses today. 8 of them are at 30km and 6 of them at 120km. After the HIP the reward for the beacon I'll send will be the same. Is this what you are saying?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/09/2022 4:38 AM
No...
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
No...
Nice job. Also in the HIP there is no data per frequency, per antenna gain. Just a salad of data well mixed to reach to the outcome. Clapping. Good job.
facepalm 2
👍 2
Avatar
Avatar
mixtri
Nice job. Also in the HIP there is no data per frequency, per antenna gain. Just a salad of data well mixed to reach to the outcome. Clapping. Good job.
The ETL is open to everyone trying to disprove the data in the HIP
Avatar
Avatar
mixtri
Nice job. Also in the HIP there is no data per frequency, per antenna gain. Just a salad of data well mixed to reach to the outcome. Clapping. Good job.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/09/2022 4:41 AM
You are making no sense.
Avatar
Avatar
groot
The ETL is open to everyone trying to disprove the data in the HIP
I'll reply when I find time. I'll ask the proper questions to the HIP proposal people. Replies like "you make no sense" are just from people who understand that something is totally wrong. When you want to present data you need to refine them. I don't see any serious parameters in the analysis. Neither antenna gain, nor frequency. Also, this kind of analysis should exclude data from urban and suburban areas to get a picture for rural areas. I'm probably wasting my time to try to explain.
Avatar
Avatar
mixtri
I'll reply when I find time. I'll ask the proper questions to the HIP proposal people. Replies like "you make no sense" are just from people who understand that something is totally wrong. When you want to present data you need to refine them. I don't see any serious parameters in the analysis. Neither antenna gain, nor frequency. Also, this kind of analysis should exclude data from urban and suburban areas to get a picture for rural areas. I'm probably wasting my time to try to explain.
I did some analysis and made it public, turns out most of those ‘great setups that are worthless now’ are not or only minimally affected.
Avatar
Avatar
mixtri
I'll reply when I find time. I'll ask the proper questions to the HIP proposal people. Replies like "you make no sense" are just from people who understand that something is totally wrong. When you want to present data you need to refine them. I don't see any serious parameters in the analysis. Neither antenna gain, nor frequency. Also, this kind of analysis should exclude data from urban and suburban areas to get a picture for rural areas. I'm probably wasting my time to try to explain.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/09/2022 4:47 AM
You didn't explain anything. And frequency and gain has nothing to do with this.
Avatar
I also don’t see why you need to split this out by gain etc, that isn’t going to make much difference when the data is based on everyone for 4 days.
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
If you'd bother to do more than glance at the witness lines, you'd know. (edited)
I do bother and seeing what I can see. But that is my point: even after HIP58, the same person will reach over 4000 km away. No antenna needed, just Linux machine and clever software.
👎 2
facepalm 1
Avatar
So far no one in here has been able to show a legitimate setup that is greatly affected by this change.
Avatar
Avatar
Milan
I do bother and seeing what I can see. But that is my point: even after HIP58, the same person will reach over 4000 km away. No antenna needed, just Linux machine and clever software.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/09/2022 4:50 AM
All those witnesses would be invalid. They would get no rewards for their cheating
Avatar
Avatar
Milan
I do bother and seeing what I can see. But that is my point: even after HIP58, the same person will reach over 4000 km away. No antenna needed, just Linux machine and clever software.
Every hotspot is ‘just a linux machine’ either say what you want to say or don’t but stop with this semi secretive stuff about something everyone already knows. No matter how clever the software, an antenna somewhere must pick up the beacons.
💯 1
Avatar
Avatar
groot
So far no one in here has been able to show a legitimate setup that is greatly affected by this change.
Here is my setup.
🤷‍♂️ 1
04:51
Great Nylon Donkey
Avatar
Avatar
Milan
Here is my setup.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/09/2022 4:51 AM
Your setup doesn't have anything to do with this
Avatar
Avatar
groot
I also don’t see why you need to split this out by gain etc, that isn’t going to make much difference when the data is based on everyone for 4 days.
You don't need to split the data for checking the coverage per antenna gain? What are you talking about? Especially for rural setups. At my eyes you need KPIs at completely different levels to take such a decision. The data analysis in the HIP is a joke, probably from student at first year of studies... Facepalm.
👍 1
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Your setup doesn't have anything to do with this
Really? Should I investigate on Github those packet forwarder or whatever is needed for spoofing and cheating? Even without antenna someone can reach whatever distance wanted. Just honest hotspot users will be affected. Man, I am living in area with sparse hotspot. I will be affected greatly.
Avatar
Avatar
Milan
Great Nylon Donkey
Only 11 of your 449 witness events in the last 60 days would be affected. What is your point?
Avatar
Avatar
Milan
Really? Should I investigate on Github those packet forwarder or whatever is needed for spoofing and cheating? Even without antenna someone can reach whatever distance wanted. Just honest hotspot users will be affected. Man, I am living in area with sparse hotspot. I will be affected greatly.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/09/2022 4:54 AM
You're not listening. Look at the witnesses to that beacon...
Avatar
Avatar
groot
Only 11 of your 449 witness events in the last 60 days would be affected. What is your point?
Only??? Rewards are already reduced, this will reduce even more.
Avatar
Avatar
Milan
Only??? Rewards are already reduced, this will reduce even more.
Yes, only. You aren't going to notice 2% spread out over 60 days. Even if you do notice, why should you be rewarded for something that a sensor has no use for.
💯 1
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
You're not listening. Look at the witnesses to that beacon...
I do listen. But, I am not blind either.
Avatar
Avatar
Milan
Only??? Rewards are already reduced, this will reduce even more.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/09/2022 4:55 AM
You get rewarded for useful coverage. Over 100km is not useful to the network.
Avatar
This people has no antenna at all!!!
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
You get rewarded for useful coverage. Over 100km is not useful to the network.
You obviously do not understand how RF things works?
👎 1
Avatar
You keep saying that, yet no answer to my question how do they get the beacons?
Avatar
Avatar
Milan
This people has no antenna at all!!!
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/09/2022 4:56 AM
So what if they don't? That's not relevant to this hip (edited)
Avatar
Range of 100km is from roof-to-roof. What for roof-to-small device with crippled antenna inside? (edited)
Avatar
Avatar
Milan
Range of 100km is from roof-to-roof. What for roof-to-small device with crippled antenna inside? (edited)
So now you're arguing it should be less?
Avatar
Avatar
Milan
You obviously do not understand how RF things works?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/09/2022 4:57 AM
Yes I do
Avatar
Where is the antenna???? Piece of wire inside.
Avatar
Question. If we get the rural installations, and we filter per antenna gain and frequency this diagram will change. Yes No
Avatar
Avatar
Milan
Where is the antenna???? Piece of wire inside.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/09/2022 4:58 AM
Why did you keep bringing up antennas??
Avatar
Avatar
mixtri
Question. If we get the rural installations, and we filter per antenna gain and frequency this diagram will change. Yes No
Question. Do you have any installation that you checked on the ETL that was affected greatly while not cheating?
Avatar
Avatar
mixtri
Question. If we get the rural installations, and we filter per antenna gain and frequency this diagram will change. Yes No
Rural installation can reach as many hotspots as there are nearby. In my situation and in my town, no much hotspots. So I beg for one at distance, at least.
👍 1
Avatar
Avatar
groot
Question. Do you have any installation that you checked on the ETL that was affected greatly while not cheating?
WHat is 'ETL'???
Avatar
Avatar
Milan
Rural installation can reach as many hotspots as there are nearby. In my situation and in my town, no much hotspots. So I beg for one at distance, at least.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/09/2022 5:00 AM
Then install more hotspots to provide useful coverage
Avatar
Avatar
Milan
Rural installation can reach as many hotspots as there are nearby. In my situation and in my town, no much hotspots. So I beg for one at distance, at least.
Why do you disregard everything that I've said? You have this hotspot you mentioned above, it is only affected by 2% yet you keep claiming you will be hurt greatly? I'm not going to respond to your continuing rambling if you disregard all counter arguments. (edited)
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Then install more hotspots to provide useful coverage
Really??? With money getting from rewards??? You are very sarcastic person. Thank you!
Avatar
Avatar
Milan
Really??? With money getting from rewards??? You are very sarcastic person. Thank you!
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/09/2022 5:01 AM
There was no sarcasm.
Avatar
That is incentive to put more hotspots - by punishing people in advance.
facepalm 1
👎 1
💯 1
Avatar
Avatar
Milan
What is that???
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/09/2022 5:02 AM
You put in your hotspot address
Avatar
Avatar
groot
Question. Do you have any installation that you checked on the ETL that was affected greatly while not cheating?
To a question you reply with a question. I have mine which will be affected. And 2 friends of mine. We are at the top of a hill and by mistake we witness miners from far. I don't see how we can avoid it. They could at least pre filter the hotspots that are really far and remove them from the witness list and get the next one which is closer. Come on... This is easy to do.
Avatar
Carl-bot BOT 04/09/2022 5:02 AM
Witnesses are informational and based on a rolling 5-day period of successful Proof-of-Coverage witness receipts. The list also resets if a Hotspot updates location, changes antenna, or elevation. Read more here: https://docs.helium.com/troubleshooting/understanding-witnesses
Witnesses on the Helium network are Hotspots that have seen (or witnessed) a Proof-of-Coverage packet from a Hotspot. This single-stage Proof-of-Coverage challenge is also known as a "Beacon".
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/09/2022 5:03 AM
It shows you data about your hotspot
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
It shows you data about your hotspot
But, it does not showing anything.
Avatar
Avatar
mixtri
To a question you reply with a question. I have mine which will be affected. And 2 friends of mine. We are at the top of a hill and by mistake we witness miners from far. I don't see how we can avoid it. They could at least pre filter the hotspots that are really far and remove them from the witness list and get the next one which is closer. Come on... This is easy to do.
How affected? I've seen really great setups with amazing coverage that were not or only minimally affected so I have a hard time taking your word for it. About the question to a question, since you don't take any counter argument into consideration I'd thought I do the same.
Avatar
It is just empty page.
😂 1
🤦‍♂️ 1
Avatar
Avatar
Milan
But, it does not showing anything.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/09/2022 5:04 AM
You have to tell it what hotspot to look at...
Avatar
Great Nylon Donkey
Avatar
Avatar
Milan
Great Nylon Donkey
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/09/2022 5:05 AM
No.. The hotspot address
Avatar
11RQrSr6fr8AJp4e416f2uF8b4rXKkDNnMu7sJAaRu9FXnerJPo
Avatar
Avatar
Milan
It is just empty page.
There is this box, at the top of the page, where you should put in your hotspot address, not name, address and it will give you insight to how many witnesses you have at what distances.
Avatar
Avatar
groot
How affected? I've seen really great setups with amazing coverage that were not or only minimally affected so I have a hard time taking your word for it. About the question to a question, since you don't take any counter argument into consideration I'd thought I do the same.
Can you reply to my question with yes or no? Is it easy I think. It will not harm. Also, I have 14 witnesses. 6 of them are at 120km. Am I affected or not?
Avatar
Avatar
Milan
11RQrSr6fr8AJp4e416f2uF8b4rXKkDNnMu7sJAaRu9FXnerJPo
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/09/2022 5:06 AM
Yes... Enter that into the field
Avatar
Avatar
mixtri
Can you reply to my question with yes or no? Is it easy I think. It will not harm. Also, I have 14 witnesses. 6 of them are at 120km. Am I affected or not?
It will change, if you run a graph on different data it will change, period.
Avatar
Avatar
mixtri
Can you reply to my question with yes or no? Is it easy I think. It will not harm. Also, I have 14 witnesses. 6 of them are at 120km. Am I affected or not?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/09/2022 5:06 AM
You know the answer
05:07
Use the tool
Avatar
Yes guys, but do something for our comments. At least the prefiltering. We have issues with witnessing people with wrong antenna gain, we will have now problem with people who are just too far from us? How can we control this damn it?
Avatar
Avatar
mixtri
Yes guys, but do something for our comments. At least the prefiltering. We have issues with witnessing people with wrong antenna gain, we will have now problem with people who are just too far from us? How can we control this damn it?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/09/2022 5:09 AM
Install more hotspots to have coverage that is useful to the network
Avatar
Throw me an address if you are so sure this will hurt you greatly
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Install more hotspots to have coverage that is useful to the network
How I can install more hotspots when I spent my last money for the device?
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Install more hotspots to have coverage that is useful to the network
This has nothing to do with what I'm telling. I have around 18 witnesses when the rak works. If I get more invalid people in my list I will get screwed. The same for my friends. We don't have communication between people who own miners. We can talk to each other. We have Omni antennas and we can't control the coverage.
Avatar
Avatar
Milan
How I can install more hotspots when I spent my last money for the device?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/09/2022 5:11 AM
Not going to tell you how to spend your money
Avatar
This is my town Vinkovci in Croatia:
05:12
Thousands of hotspots???
Avatar
Avatar
mixtri
This has nothing to do with what I'm telling. I have around 18 witnesses when the rak works. If I get more invalid people in my list I will get screwed. The same for my friends. We don't have communication between people who own miners. We can talk to each other. We have Omni antennas and we can't control the coverage.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/09/2022 5:12 AM
You claim to be screwed. Prove it. Use the tool
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
You claim to be screwed. Prove it. Use the tool
Link.
Avatar
The fact that you refuse to give the numbers from the ETL tool makes me wonder if you are affected at all or you have some secondary agenda here. Anyway, preliminary results tell us this will pass so do with it what you want.
05:15
Alright, 5am and I should really get some sleep. Catch ya later @groot 🙂
😴 2
Avatar
So, am I cheater then??? Put me on deny list, please.
05:17
Great Nylon Donkey
Avatar
Avatar
Milan
So, am I cheater then??? Put me on deny list, please.
I'm not sure how that follows from what you show here?
05:19
This is one of my miners... I go to the next one...
05:20
Avatar
Avatar
mixtri
Click to see attachment 🖼️
Yes, mate - you are badly screwed with this HIP58.
🙌 1
Avatar
And the third one...
05:26
I hope they take it back and try to analyze in a different way. The way they did it is like mixing data from different cases and get an outcome. It doesn't mean it is valid.
👎 1
💯 1
Avatar
Yes. Ok. But you burn others along with it. What about prefiltering and don't put them at all in the witness list instead of making them invalid? (edited)
Avatar
Carl-bot BOT 04/09/2022 5:27 AM
Witnesses are informational and based on a rolling 5-day period of successful Proof-of-Coverage witness receipts. The list also resets if a Hotspot updates location, changes antenna, or elevation. Read more here: https://docs.helium.com/troubleshooting/understanding-witnesses
Witnesses on the Helium network are Hotspots that have seen (or witnessed) a Proof-of-Coverage packet from a Hotspot. This single-stage Proof-of-Coverage challenge is also known as a "Beacon".
Avatar
Avatar
mixtri
Yes. Ok. But you burn others along with it. What about prefiltering and don't put them at all in the witness list instead of making them invalid? (edited)
I suppose you mean removing the > 100km ones from consideration for the 14 witness limit? That won't matter on the long run as witnesses with some invalids are going to be higher reward. It also prevents further analysis on > 100km witnesses so this distance limit could never be increased anymore.
👆 1
Avatar
Avatar
groot
I suppose you mean removing the > 100km ones from consideration for the 14 witness limit? That won't matter on the long run as witnesses with some invalids are going to be higher reward. It also prevents further analysis on > 100km witnesses so this distance limit could never be increased anymore.
Yes that I mean. The beacon will be affected though. It is different to have a beacon with 14 valid witnesses and beacon with 8 valid and 6 invalid. So you give the opportunity for the hotspot have beacon with 14 valid witnesses every single time.
Avatar
Avatar
mixtri
Yes that I mean. The beacon will be affected though. It is different to have a beacon with 14 valid witnesses and beacon with 8 valid and 6 invalid. So you give the opportunity for the hotspot have beacon with 14 valid witnesses every single time.
Avatar
What would be the problem with prefiltering? I don't get it. I would vote for this hip if it would help me to filter out the far witnesses instead of getting them to my invalid list.
Avatar
The problem with prefiltering is that it means > 100km witnesses never make it to chain, this way we lose the information of > 100km witnesses if we ever want to expand this distance limit. Another problem is that it requires code changes while this requires only a chain variable.
👍 2
Avatar
Avatar
groot
The problem with prefiltering is that it means > 100km witnesses never make it to chain, this way we lose the information of > 100km witnesses if we ever want to expand this distance limit. Another problem is that it requires code changes while this requires only a chain variable.
The code changes are inevitable when such a big change is happening. I understand that you want to keep statistics in the chain as well. But maybe to think of a way to not consider these witnesses after two three failures. It doesn't make sense to witness someone or witnessed by someone that is not possible to participate in PoC
Avatar
Avatar
mixtri
Yes guys, but do something for our comments. At least the prefiltering. We have issues with witnessing people with wrong antenna gain, we will have now problem with people who are just too far from us? How can we control this damn it?
I think you should just input 15dbi in the app so your transmit power is reduced, maybe they won't hear your beacon over 100km.
Avatar
Avatar
belzebut
I think you should just input 15dbi in the app so your transmit power is reduced, maybe they won't hear your beacon over 100km.
That's smart
Avatar
Avatar
groot
The problem with prefiltering is that it means > 100km witnesses never make it to chain, this way we lose the information of > 100km witnesses if we ever want to expand this distance limit. Another problem is that it requires code changes while this requires only a chain variable.
That's a poor argument since you lose so much data to start with by storing only the info of 14 witnesses out of who knows how many. Now if you change that to be able to access the whole data, that would be a brilliant idea and it would make sense then.
Avatar
Avatar
belzebut
That's a poor argument since you lose so much data to start with by storing only the info of 14 witnesses out of who knows how many. Now if you change that to be able to access the whole data, that would be a brilliant idea and it would make sense then.
Can't be done on the Blockchain since it would make blocks too big with all the data. It needs to be done off chain and there's already a hip for it #hip-50-display-all-witnesses
👍 1
Avatar
Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 04/09/2022 8:55 AM
^
Avatar
Could be worse but still not great
Avatar
Avatar
Milan
You obviously do not understand how RF things works?
you're right , he doesn't know how farms work either.... the farms have 20-30km radius I have lot of proof beacuse the are my neighbors. then cut at 100km ? Good Job !!
👎 1
Avatar
If you are on one side of a mountain and have a large blackspot behind you , it can help to spoof your location to overcome some affected by the distance limit
Avatar
Avatar
Jose79
you're right , he doesn't know how farms work either.... the farms have 20-30km radius I have lot of proof beacuse the are my neighbors. then cut at 100km ? Good Job !!
This hip is not supposed to be the be all and end all for stopping gaming.
Avatar
There never will be a good solution to overcome gaming
👎 1
Avatar
Avatar
ricopt5
This hip is not supposed to be the be all and end all for stopping gaming.
Ok, for decrease the range of the network ... ok I get it 😦
👎 1
Avatar
I think this HIP helps with middle man attacks where someone is intercepting the packets from nearby miners and collecting their rewards for witnessing. But this does not stop the spoofers using VPN. Is there any data regarding which gammers are worse on the network? Middle man attacks or VPN location spoofers?
Avatar
Avatar
mixtri
Click to see attachment 🖼️
Where do you get this info from sorry?
Avatar
Avatar
Fitclub
Where do you get this info from sorry?
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 04/09/2022 10:34 AM
10:39
and how do you find your hs address
10:40
nevermind
10:40
fouund it
👍 1
10:40
😉
Avatar
Avatar
Fitclub
and how do you find your hs address
Your hotspot app should have it, or you search for the hotspot name in Explorer and it will show it. In the attached image, I searched Explorer for little bamboo moth (no relation, just random choice), notice the last portion of the URL beginning with 11hy...? That is the hotspot address. (edited)
🙏 1
Avatar
Avatar
Petzl
There never will be a good solution to overcome gaming
OptimusPrime 04/09/2022 12:09 PM
For sure for single solution. But some better than none.
Avatar
Avatar
Petzl
There never will be a good solution to overcome gaming
DigitalHuevos🥚 04/09/2022 12:11 PM
The best you can ever hope for is to keep it in check. Once it hits the "agent Smith" level. It's gonna be too late.
😅 1
Avatar
Avatar
Jose79
Ok, for decrease the range of the network ... ok I get it 😦
Yeah, we should working on RF jammers for big towns. 😄
12:50
It started with 100+ km, then next will be only 10 km, but at the end just 1 km. 😦
Troll 1
Avatar
Avatar
Milan
It started with 100+ km, then next will be only 10 km, but at the end just 1 km. 😦
DigitalHuevos🥚 04/09/2022 1:10 PM
We call that "conspiracy graphing" at my work😊
💯 2
Avatar
When we start all of that limiting, why not skip all waiting and forbid all witnessing. Leave only data packets.
😂 1
Avatar
Avatar
groot
How affected? I've seen really great setups with amazing coverage that were not or only minimally affected so I have a hard time taking your word for it. About the question to a question, since you don't take any counter argument into consideration I'd thought I do the same.
Minimally affected = affected ! Stop this HIP, the cheaters will adjust in 1/2 days and the victims are the legit users
👎 1
Avatar
Avatar
dj013
Minimally affected = affected ! Stop this HIP, the cheaters will adjust in 1/2 days and the victims are the legit users
DigitalHuevos🥚 04/09/2022 1:47 PM
There are no victims here. It's an evolution of the network. Nobody was ever promised that the network would stay exactly the same. In fact we can all vote for this change or not. (edited)
13:48
The only guarantee is there will be change.
Avatar
Avatar
DigitalHuevos🥚
There are no victims here. It's an evolution of the network. Nobody was ever promised that the network would stay exactly the same. In fact we can all vote for this change or not. (edited)
It’s no evolution, it’s a emergency patch for the problems with scammers that effects legit users.
👎 1
Avatar
Avatar
dj013
It’s no evolution, it’s a emergency patch for the problems with scammers that effects legit users.
DigitalHuevos🥚 04/09/2022 1:49 PM
Think you need to look up the definition of evolution. To evolve do to circumstances. (edited)
Avatar
Dont try to bend everything to support a stupid idea
facepalm 1
Avatar
DigitalHuevos🥚 04/09/2022 1:51 PM
You mean like you are saying everything is fine? Even though you have been told over and over about sensor range facts (edited)
👍 1
Avatar
The network needs more safety and way more stability thats main concern now, we don’t need stupid emergency steps
👎 1
Avatar
Avatar
DigitalHuevos🥚
You mean like you are saying everything is fine? Even though you have been told over and over about sensor range facts (edited)
Sensors go >100KM not all bit there are sensors that do
Avatar
DigitalHuevos🥚 04/09/2022 1:52 PM
Steps in the right direction is what we are doing. There is no one time fix everything.
Avatar
This is not right direction, this is pumping air in the tire every week in stead of fixing the tire
👎 1
Avatar
DigitalHuevos🥚 04/09/2022 1:54 PM
I'll let you argue. But once voted it will change. So why get yourself all bent out of shape. Go vote no. Thats the extent of your influence.
Avatar
hmmm How a 'Lekker HOBBYEN met crypto & antennes' is bending towards BUSINESS
Avatar
No letting people think in stead of just pressing yes is the best influence
Avatar
Avatar
dj013
No letting people think in stead of just pressing yes is the best influence
DigitalHuevos🥚 04/09/2022 1:55 PM
Nobody is stopping you from thinking? You are just thinking about yourself is the problem. Not the network (edited)
Avatar
Avatar
DigitalHuevos🥚
I'll let you argue. But once voted it will change. So why get yourself all bent out of shape. Go vote no. Thats the extent of your influence.
So you agree its no voting, you already know it’s changing 😂😂😂
facepalm 1
Avatar
Avatar
dj013
So you agree its no voting, you already know it’s changing 😂😂😂
DigitalHuevos🥚 04/09/2022 1:57 PM
Well I can read the vote is at 90% in favor. So it's not rocket science what the people want.
Avatar
Avatar
DigitalHuevos🥚
Nobody is stopping you from thinking? You are just thinking about yourself is the problem. Not the network (edited)
That’s where you’re totally wrong, i buy & use helium iot sensors, i help people with the use of them. I believe in this network, i just don’t like fake steps and fraud democracy
💯 1
👎 1
Avatar
Avatar
DigitalHuevos🥚
Well I can read the vote is at 90% in favor. So it's not rocket science what the people want.
It’s not democracy, a few whales make the deal
Avatar
DigitalHuevos🥚 04/09/2022 1:58 PM
Great. Fight the good fight.
Avatar
Killing this HiP is a good fight !
💯 1
👎 1
Avatar
DigitalHuevos🥚 04/09/2022 2:00 PM
4300 people not hnt vs 900 btw
Avatar
Avatar
dj013
Killing this HiP is a good fight !
DigitalHuevos🥚 04/09/2022 2:00 PM
If you really believe this good for you. 👍
14:00
I'm personally for it!
Avatar
For me it’s not that bad, will kill a few witnesses but it’s dramatic for rural aereas AND this is the beginning of panic HIP’s against cheaters. Now a few legit users are having issues but what’s to come ? You need to kill problems where they start en not go around the real problem
💯 1
facepalm 1
Avatar
You keep saying that but don’t actually present solutions
14:05
Write the proposal, the code, something?
14:06
The slippery slope argument is just a distraction otherwise (edited)
💯 1
Avatar
I am not the inventor of the network, the solution is to make it safer and more stable
🤣 1
Avatar
You claim to be an operator of the network. So own the problem.
💯 3
Avatar
I can write some python scripts, i am no code junkey. I suppose the Helium company has some.
Avatar
Avatar
hashc0de
You claim to be an operator of the network. So own the problem.
Operator ? Where do i claim that ? I have hotspots and iot devices
Avatar
Avatar
dj013
Operator ? Where do i claim that ? I have hotspots and iot devices
That is an operator of the network
14:09
It’s your hotspot and your devices
14:11
Ah so when you are critical on this hip you must reprogram the helium network, install extra hotspots…. All these bended arguments, start to look like real politics here 😂.
🙄 1
Avatar
I’m not critical of the HIP. I wrote it.
14:12
And I helped with the analysis
🥳 3
🤘 1
14:12
And I helped make sure the code was ready for activation
Avatar
One of the most long range setups I’ve seen turned out not to be as affected as he thought and is now in favor of this hip yet you keep bashing it based on some none existent hotspots that will be greatly affected. If you have them, show them, else why do you keep boasting that without evidence?
Avatar
If it passed a governance process.
Avatar
I sincerely hope this HIP will not mess up the network like previous HIP’s,
Avatar
Avatar
groot
One of the most long range setups I’ve seen turned out not to be as affected as he thought and is now in favor of this hip yet you keep bashing it based on some none existent hotspots that will be greatly affected. If you have them, show them, else why do you keep boasting that without evidence?
That it affects legit users should be a reason to pass, the scammers will work around it in a few days as long as thats possible in the architecture
Avatar
Avatar
groot
One of the most long range setups I’ve seen turned out not to be as affected as he thought and is now in favor of this hip yet you keep bashing it based on some none existent hotspots that will be greatly affected. If you have them, show them, else why do you keep boasting that without evidence?
No they’re (ed: corrected) here to try to keep saying inflammatory statements without evidence, alternatives, or effort. (edited)
👍 1
Avatar
Avatar
hashc0de
No they’re (ed: corrected) here to try to keep saying inflammatory statements without evidence, alternatives, or effort. (edited)
Not fair, but used to that in the meantime
Avatar
Avatar
dj013
Not fair, but used to that in the meantime
Have you provided evidence or alternatives?
Avatar
Avatar
hashc0de
No they’re (ed: corrected) here to try to keep saying inflammatory statements without evidence, alternatives, or effort. (edited)
It seems so, the etl nicely shows puma would’ve only got < 50 witnesses so thats a win. The poc being more aligned with sensors, also a win. Double win in my book but apparently not his.
👍 1
Avatar
It affects users = evidence Alternative = better core
🤡 1
Avatar
Avatar
groot
It seems so, the etl nicely shows puma would’ve only got < 50 witnesses so thats a win. The poc being more aligned with sensors, also a win. Double win in my book but apparently not his.
BS, the Puma guy/girl will probably redesign and be back in a few days they now how to cheat. Sensors will not be affected some go 1 km some >100
Avatar
Avatar
dj013
BS, the Puma guy/girl will probably redesign and be back in a few days they now how to cheat. Sensors will not be affected some go 1 km some >100
And if so. Great. Let’s close that hole too. And sensors continue to not be affected by this limit.
Avatar
Avatar
hashc0de
And if so. Great. Let’s close that hole too. And sensors continue to not be affected by this limit.
Let’s FIRST close that hole and create stability
Avatar
Avatar
dj013
Let’s FIRST close that hole and create stability
You keep pretending they are mutually exclusive…
👆 1
Avatar
Avatar
groot
You keep pretending they are mutually exclusive…
We can only do one thing at a time, though. 😞
Avatar
The witness data is based on the witness. Those witnesses would need to be asserted in a different location to fall within 100km. Not likely to stop it but it’ll prevent unnatural witnesses from being rewarded. PoC isn’t meant to make people rich fwiw but to prove coverage (I know very controversial opinion) but the closer we can get PoC to better describe coverage for end users (devices) the better. Also great point, devices will still be able to go >100km. (edited)
Avatar
This is the most recent gamer, and looks like he already adjusted his hotspots to witness less than 100km https://explorer.helium.com/accounts/14CxhRVEfrQkJDvkaBddmWkUXgUwwxgJPMqDUFZ5hdzEZshxyNd/hotspots
Avatar
Avatar
hashc0de
We can only do one thing at a time, though. 😞
Well I told everyone that this chain var takes 3 min and Fizzy make me promise that it could be done in 2 so I hope you got your keys ready🙃
Avatar
Avatar
groot
Well I told everyone that this chain var takes 3 min and Fizzy make me promise that it could be done in 2 so I hope you got your keys ready🙃
What if I told you it’s already signed and it’ll take less time?
Avatar
Avatar
hashc0de
We can only do one thing at a time, though. 😞
Real Problem -> real solution (no need for patch HIP’s)
Avatar
(Jk… it’s really not)
😂 2
Avatar
I think the biggest issue with this hip is the feeling of changing the rules mid-stream. if this was the set limit from day one of our current poc system then whatever. we all would've built out the network accordingly and had nothing to bitch about. but for us operators that have some expensive rents to pay for towers and high rise roof installs, it feels a little rude to change the rules so aburtly. having siad that all, and being one of the biggest opponents of the 50km limit when it was snuck in with pocv11 last year, I am oddly in favor of this hip as 100km wouldn't greatly effect my spots and would greatly effect witness stuffer cheaters (edited)
Avatar
Avatar
Nian
This is the most recent gamer, and looks like he already adjusted his hotspots to witness less than 100km https://explorer.helium.com/accounts/14CxhRVEfrQkJDvkaBddmWkUXgUwwxgJPMqDUFZ5hdzEZshxyNd/hotspots
It’s nice that they are now killed in a few days
Avatar
Avatar
stranqe
I think the biggest issue with this hip is the feeling of changing the rules mid-stream. if this was the set limit from day one of our current poc system then whatever. we all would've built out the network accordingly and had nothing to bitch about. but for us operators that have some expensive rents to pay for towers and high rise roof installs, it feels a little rude to change the rules so aburtly. having siad that all, and being one of the biggest opponents of the 50km limit when it was snuck in with pocv11 last year, I am oddly in favor of this hip as 100km wouldn't greatly effect my spots and would greatly effect witness stuffer cheaters (edited)
We really did not describe pocv11 well enough. That’s on me.
Avatar
As long as there’s rewards people will try and game it. No silver bullet to prevent this except stopping the rewards for everyone…
✅ 4
Avatar
Avatar
Nian
This is the most recent gamer, and looks like he already adjusted his hotspots to witness less than 100km https://explorer.helium.com/accounts/14CxhRVEfrQkJDvkaBddmWkUXgUwwxgJPMqDUFZ5hdzEZshxyNd/hotspots
There are only so many hotspots within a 100km radius so it will definitely help.
Avatar
Let’s just reward 1:1 data transfer Troll
Avatar
Avatar
Anthonyra
Let’s just reward 1:1 data transfer Troll
Burn all the rest?
14:29
That would be a horrible proposal
Avatar
It’d go over sooooo well I’m sure
😆 1
Avatar
Avatar
hashc0de
That would be a horrible proposal
I might oddly be in favor of this too lol
Avatar
Avatar
DigitalHuevos🥚
I'm personally for it!
I think we have found a gamer…
Avatar
Avatar
stranqe
I might oddly be in favor of this too lol
No it’s terrible. HST holders will get too much of issued supply (relative supply) (edited)
Avatar
Avatar
hashc0de
We really did not describe pocv11 well enough. That’s on me.
I think the upper limit should've been set before pocv11 even. maybe when the current poc system was first setup. when the network moved away from the hopping method.
Avatar
Avatar
stranqe
I think the upper limit should've been set before pocv11 even. maybe when the current poc system was first setup. when the network moved away from the hopping method.
You’re right
Avatar
Avatar
hashc0de
No it’s terrible. HST holders will get too much of issued supply (relative supply) (edited)
ok let me rethink then. perhaps rewards only on packet transfers? my miners do a fair amount of random packets
Avatar
You see the data transfer growing every day over the hotspots, almost no revenue but that will come later (edited)
Avatar
Avatar
stranqe
ok let me rethink then. perhaps rewards only on packet transfers? my miners do a fair amount of random packets
Hope it’s >225,000 DC per day or you’d earn sub average daily rewards right now..
Avatar
Avatar
nexic
I think we have found a gamer…
DigitalHuevos🥚 04/09/2022 2:33 PM
Lol I'm for them implementing the hip. 😂 (edited)
Avatar
Avatar
DigitalHuevos🥚
Lol I'm for them implementing the hip. 😂 (edited)
I’m talking about the other dude
Avatar
Avatar
nexic
I’m talking about the other dude
Thanks !
Avatar
Avatar
nexic
I’m talking about the other dude
DigitalHuevos🥚 04/09/2022 2:34 PM
Ahh you tagged me. Sorry!
Avatar
19 legit hotspots here
Avatar
Avatar
dj013
It’s not democracy, a few whales make the deal
Why is this hip in the interest of the „whales“?
Avatar
Avatar
Anthonyra
Hope it’s >225,000 DC per day or you’d earn sub average daily rewards right now..
I meant all hnt rewards are distributed evenly among existing packet transfers. nothing burned. 😁 (edited)
Avatar
And a lot of iot sensors
Avatar
Avatar
stranqe
I meant all hnt rewards are distributed evenly among existing packet transfers. nothing burned. 😁 (edited)
Lookup Meerkat
💯 2
Avatar
Avatar
groot
Lookup Meerkat
oh yah. that. 🤔
😅 1
Avatar
Avatar
backtran
Why is this hip in the interest of the „whales“?
Where do you read that ?
Avatar
How about we just randomize all rewards where each witness receipt is a lottery ticket to receive 1hnt every epoch. Winners are chosen randomly by validators.
Avatar
Avatar
nexic
How about we just randomize all rewards where each witness receipt is a lottery ticket to receive 1hnt every epoch. Winners are chosen randomly by validators.
pre validators was kinda like this. was wonderful 😁 (edited)
Avatar
Avatar
nexic
How about we just randomize all rewards where each witness receipt is a lottery ticket to receive 1hnt every epoch. Winners are chosen randomly by validators.
The chia network
Avatar
Avatar
dj013
Where do you read that ?
You posted it. The whales make the „deal“ according to you. Why would the whales want this hip?
Avatar
Avatar
dj013
Where do you read that ?
DigitalHuevos🥚 04/09/2022 2:38 PM
dj013 - It’s not democracy, a few whales make the deal
Avatar
Avatar
backtran
You posted it. The whales make the „deal“ according to you. Why would the whales want this hip?
You don’t read, whales have much voting power and they can do that
Avatar
Avatar
dj013
You don’t read, whales have much voting power and they can do that
DigitalHuevos🥚 04/09/2022 2:39 PM
So your saying the whales are in favor of this indirectly.... actually 90 percent directly (edited)
Avatar
Avatar
DigitalHuevos🥚
So your saying the whales are in favor of this indirectly.... actually 90 percent directly (edited)
No that’s your interpretation
Avatar
Avatar
dj013
You don’t read, whales have much voting power and they can do that
I did read. You assert the „whales“ made the deal. I am just wondering what’s in it for them?
Avatar
Avatar
dj013
You don’t read, whales have much voting power and they can do that
Congratulations! You have graduated to conspiracy theorist! 🎉
☝️ 1
Avatar
Avatar
backtran
I did read. You assert the „whales“ made the deal. I am just wondering what’s in it for them?
That’s your interpretation
Avatar
Avatar
nexic
Congratulations! You have graduated to conspiracy theorist! 🎉
🤡
Avatar
DigitalHuevos🥚 04/09/2022 2:40 PM
We all have the same interpretation then accept you. (edited)
Avatar
Avatar
dj013
That’s your interpretation
It’s what you wrote. Clarify then, if I got it wrong.
👆 1
Avatar
I already did thats not what it said
Avatar
Avatar
dj013
I already did thats not what it said
You said this: „It’s not democracy, a few whales make the deal“. What does it mean?
Avatar
Exactly what it says, a few whales make the deal. In democracy everybody is equal
Avatar
Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 04/09/2022 2:43 PM
U can write a hip and propose an alternative if you don't like "it" be it this hip or just about anything else.
Avatar
DigitalHuevos🥚 04/09/2022 2:43 PM
Being as the vote is 4000 vs 900 the whales would want this to pass. According to your statement
Avatar
Avatar
dj013
Exactly what it says, a few whales make the deal. In democracy everybody is equal
And in regards to this hip, since this is the topic here? Why would the whales want hip 58?
Avatar
It’s the voting system, that’s for all hip’s
14:45
Do i really have to spell every word ?
14:45
My kids need less words
🤡 1
Avatar
Avatar
backtran
And in regards to this hip, since this is the topic here? Why would the whales want hip 58?
Because the whales can only buy small antennas apparently.
Avatar
Anybody has any info on how many cheaters are abusing the system with this long range witnessing thingy? Or how much HNT is being lost to that? An approximation at least?
Avatar
Avatar
dj013
It’s the voting system, that’s for all hip’s
You do have to spell every word, it’s called language
Avatar
Avatar
backtran
You do have to spell every word, it’s called language
Pffff come on, little self thinking
🙄 1
Avatar
Avatar
dj013
Pffff come on, little self thinking
Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 04/09/2022 2:48 PM
Design a better voting system right the hip and propose it, then.
Avatar
Avatar
dj013
Pffff come on, little self thinking
Avoiding the question is also an answer.
💯 1
Avatar
Avatar
backtran
Avoiding the question is also an answer.
Seems to be the case on every challenge of his excellency.
💯 1
Avatar
Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 04/09/2022 2:49 PM
I don't get people that complain with zero interest in putting forth effort to produce a better alternative, or fix what they claim is the current problem.
Avatar
to be fair some people like the current status quo and the ability to witness stuff. 🤔
👆 1
Avatar
Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 04/09/2022 2:51 PM
I like a functional IoT\multi_protocol network for my community, and others.
👍 1
Avatar
We should give a vote to every sensor that couldn’t reach a hotspot because the coverage it was pretending to offer wasn’t sufficient for the sensors tiny antenna.
💯 2
Avatar
small antenna energy is real
😆 1
Avatar
Avatar
groot
We should give a vote to every sensor that couldn’t reach a hotspot because the coverage it was pretending to offer wasn’t sufficient for the sensors tiny antenna.
Can you provide a link or product name for these tiny antenna sensors? I've only seen some with what seem to be a regular 1.2db antenna
Avatar
Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 04/09/2022 3:01 PM
Find a LoraWAN sensor that claims more than 25km in "perfect" conditions
15:02
Most on Google claim 7-15km
15:02
A 4x scale is more than enough to "prove coverage"
Avatar
Avatar
belzebut
Can you provide a link or product name for these tiny antenna sensors? I've only seen some with what seem to be a regular 1.2db antenna
It was obviously metaphorical, even so, I looked one up for you (also note the little tx power): https://www.dragino.com/downloads/downloads/LoRa_End_Node/LDS01/Datasheet_LDS01_Door_Sensor.pdf (edited)
👍 1
Avatar
Avatar
groot
It was obviously metaphorical, even so, I looked one up for you (also note the little tx power): https://www.dragino.com/downloads/downloads/LoRa_End_Node/LDS01/Datasheet_LDS01_Door_Sensor.pdf (edited)
Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 04/09/2022 3:04 PM
I have the seeed version (edited)
Avatar
Been looking to get a few of these just for fun
😳 1
Avatar
Avatar
groot
Been looking to get a few of these just for fun
Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 04/09/2022 3:07 PM
I use the base open close feature with beep. But I'm told you can do much more with them
Avatar
So, can we call Helium network not 'people's network' but rather 'whales network' ? (edited)
Avatar
Hip 58: addressing the issue without addressing the issue. Lazy fix, team.
Troll 1
Avatar
Avatar
TotallyBro
Hip 58: addressing the issue without addressing the issue. Lazy fix, team.
oh, you have 1 fix that would solve gmaing ?
Avatar
Avatar
BiggieJohn
oh, you have 1 fix that would solve gmaing ?
Not this one, for sure.
👍🏼 1
🥱 1
Avatar
so you have no idea how to fix gaming, you just doint like this HIP
Avatar
Avatar
BiggieJohn
so you have no idea how to fix gaming, you just doint like this HIP
I know this is not the way
🙄 1
Avatar
DigitalHuevos🥚 04/09/2022 6:10 PM
Well enlighten us all? Why is this not the way?
18:11
Without saying they will just adapt to 100km within a day or 2.
Avatar
Avatar
groot
It was obviously metaphorical, even so, I looked one up for you (also note the little tx power): https://www.dragino.com/downloads/downloads/LoRa_End_Node/LDS01/Datasheet_LDS01_Door_Sensor.pdf (edited)
i dont think we should conform to suit cheap manufacturing process for a device with only 18db , No external antenna connector and probably a tiny antenna inside. (edited)
18:42
there are sensors availble with external aerial attachment. the whole arguement that sensors dont go that far at this point is invalid https://shop.s5system.com/collections/iot-sensors/products/lsn50v2-s31b-lorawan-temperature-humidity-sensor-dragino-smart-sensor-au915-s5-system (edited)
The Dragino LSN50v2-S31B is a LoRaWAN Temperature and Humidity Sensor for Internet of Things solution. It is used to measure the surrounding environment temperature and relative air humidity precisely, and then upload to IoT server via LoRaWAN wireless protocol. The temperature & humidity sensor used in LSN50v2-S31
Avatar
Avatar
MoreDPS
i dont think we should conform to suit cheap manufacturing process for a device with only 18db , No external antenna connector and probably a tiny antenna inside. (edited)
sure, SOME do, but most dont, and I dont know where you get off calling that "poor manufacturing process" its meant to be a small, low power device, and external antenna adds cost and design constraints (edited)
Avatar
sorry for the confusion it was a "poor" choice of words,by poor i didnt mean the quality , i meant cost (edited)
19:04
it doesnt have the extras.
Avatar
Original message was deleted or could not be loaded.
DigitalHuevos🥚 04/09/2022 7:13 PM
Huh? This hip will stop some of the gamers. Not all but some. That's better than just letting them continue. (edited)
Avatar
it never claimed to be the final solution to end all gamers
Avatar
Avatar
DigitalHuevos🥚
Being as the vote is 4000 vs 900 the whales would want this to pass. According to your statement
Of course they do. Think who has the most HNT to spend 😂 (not gamers)
Avatar
PushAir_Pty-Ltd_HeatCool 04/09/2022 7:39 PM
How I can claim that , I'm still vote already and send some hnt , I don't know what my miner still slow and not much reward hnt ? Some budy can help me ?
Avatar
Avatar
bilalhp
Of course they do. Think who has the most HNT to spend 😂 (not gamers)
DigitalHuevos🥚 04/09/2022 7:41 PM
Huh? Why would the whales want this to pass? There is no benefit to them. Well none I can see anyway (edited)
👆 1
Avatar
There is big benefit to them to stop gaming
Avatar
DigitalHuevos🥚 04/09/2022 7:42 PM
I want them to stop gaming as well!
Avatar
They will find a way😂
Avatar
DigitalHuevos🥚 04/09/2022 7:43 PM
My point was 4k people voted for hip 58 so far. And only 909 against. (edited)
Avatar
Not sure "whales" here represent only the big gamers. Because my understanding is "big HNT holders"
Avatar
Avatar
DigitalHuevos🥚
My point was 4k people voted for hip 58 so far. And only 909 against. (edited)
I am also pretty sure it will pass
Avatar
DigitalHuevos🥚 04/09/2022 7:44 PM
Hell yeah it will! Let's go
Avatar
4k is very few though
Avatar
DigitalHuevos🥚 04/09/2022 7:44 PM
Anything to stop even a couple hundred of them. It's a start! (edited)
👍 2
Avatar
Avatar
DigitalHuevos🥚
Huh? This hip will stop some of the gamers. Not all but some. That's better than just letting them continue. (edited)
Careful of your wording...I don't think this HIP is designed to stop gamers at all. It is designed to limit their profit during the period of time it takes to determine that they are stealing from us and put them on the denylist. Of course they will adapt and lower their fake distances to under 100km. This will decrease their profits until we catch their immoral behaviors. Fortunately the HIP's strategy to limit their profits does not harm legit hotspot set ups or if it does it is very minimally. The upside of the HIP is that it better aligns the definition of PoC with the mission of the network (providing coverage to sensors which for the most part only reach 30-50 km). (edited)
💯 1
Avatar
Avatar
KeithR
Careful of your wording...I don't think this HIP is designed to stop gamers at all. It is designed to limit their profit during the period of time it takes to determine that they are stealing from us and put them on the denylist. Of course they will adapt and lower their fake distances to under 100km. This will decrease their profits until we catch their immoral behaviors. Fortunately the HIP's strategy to limit their profits does not harm legit hotspot set ups or if it does it is very minimally. The upside of the HIP is that it better aligns the definition of PoC with the mission of the network (providing coverage to sensors which for the most part only reach 30-50 km). (edited)
DigitalHuevos🥚 04/10/2022 12:06 AM
It was designed to help curb some gaming tactics.v" As I read in the description . You are correct. Sorry didn't mean to imply it would stop them. (edited)
Avatar
Imagine what this person can do if antenna is actually connected: https://explorer.helium.com/hotspots/111JCwtsQeUxrW4rQFUzqA8g9NsquZBkLWVSZrK18TUomRt8dqJ/activity
Helium Explorer is a Block Explorer and Analytics Platform for Helium, a decentralized wireless connectivity platform
Avatar
Avatar
Milan
Imagine what this person can do if antenna is actually connected: https://explorer.helium.com/hotspots/111JCwtsQeUxrW4rQFUzqA8g9NsquZBkLWVSZrK18TUomRt8dqJ/activity
Invalid party! facepalm poor him
Avatar
Possible only on Helium, the whales's network. (edited)
Avatar
Avatar
DigitalHuevos🥚
My point was 4k people voted for hip 58 so far. And only 909 against. (edited)
It depends on how you see the results. If 10% will be affected by the change is much to consider. The bunch of hotspots is in cities so they don't care about this hip. Then we have the oligarchs who want this hip to pass and lastly the poor rural people who want this to not pass. Anyhow, it will pass.
🙄 1
Avatar
Avatar
mixtri
It depends on how you see the results. If 10% will be affected by the change is much to consider. The bunch of hotspots is in cities so they don't care about this hip. Then we have the oligarchs who want this hip to pass and lastly the poor rural people who want this to not pass. Anyhow, it will pass.
Yes, it will pass because of 'voting power' which has whales with plenty of money.
00:46
Imagine whales instead investing in my area, where you can count number of hotspots on two hands.
heliumgreen 1
00:47
Actually one hand. Few of those hotspots will migrate soon to big town.
Avatar
Avatar
Milan
Actually one hand. Few of those hotspots will migrate soon to big town.
I'll do the same. Better to move from rural to cities. Except if we get data traffic in rural. But I don't see anything moving. I'm at 1KB a day in traffic for my city miners...
Avatar
Avatar
mixtri
I'll do the same. Better to move from rural to cities. Except if we get data traffic in rural. But I don't see anything moving. I'm at 1KB a day in traffic for my city miners...
Same here. Only data packets are visible during my mapping.
heliumgreen 1
Avatar
Avatar
Milan
Yes, it will pass because of 'voting power' which has whales with plenty of money.
Why does this hip benefit whales more than anyone else?
Avatar
Avatar
Milan
Yes, it will pass because of 'voting power' which has whales with plenty of money.
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 04/10/2022 1:57 AM
Avatar
Avatar
mixtri
I'll do the same. Better to move from rural to cities. Except if we get data traffic in rural. But I don't see anything moving. I'm at 1KB a day in traffic for my city miners...
Data which consists only of people doing tests to improve their setups and not actual sensors. At least in my country that's the case.
Avatar
Avatar
belzebut
Data which consists only of people doing tests to improve their setups and not actual sensors. At least in my country that's the case.
I'm in Sweden and it seems that there is real traffic. I don't know from where ofc.
Avatar
Avatar
stranqe
small antenna energy is real
🤣
Avatar
Avatar
groot
We should give a vote to every sensor that couldn’t reach a hotspot because the coverage it was pretending to offer wasn’t sufficient for the sensors tiny antenna.
From my experience in the domain for cellular communications, you design the network according to the best possible coverage. In NR tech there are several types of UEs with different PC characteristics. Usually you design the network according to the PC1 and not PC3 UEs, otherwise you do something wrong. LoRa can be different or not, but the principle of coverage is the same. (edited)
Avatar
Avatar
Milan
Possible only on Helium, the whales's network. (edited)
You keep talking about “whales”. What makes a “whale” on helium? How are their interests misaligned with yours? After all if the project fails they have everything to lose? (edited)
Avatar
Avatar
backtran
You keep talking about “whales”. What makes a “whale” on helium? How are their interests misaligned with yours? After all if the project fails they have everything to lose? (edited)
Honestly I think this isn’t in regards to this HIP directly but how HIPs are voted on. #hip-41-governance-by-token-lock-v2 is the best channel for said concerns… (edited)
Avatar
*Big Pimpin* (Not Jack Sparrow) 04/10/2022 3:50 AM
Ok, read the HIP. What real benefit does this HIP provide the community? This is going to stop gamers? 😂. Ok, limit then for a couple days untill they adjust fire. Seems this hip is more geared to off grid setups and those in mountains and towers. There has always been hate towards those can kill it with providing good coverage and being able to see further than Joe nose picker with his antenna behind a brick wall in the basement that doesn't put in the effort to make his/her setup better. In the end, it doesn't matter. The people trying to earn good off this will still get nerfed. (edited)
👌 2
facepalm 1
03:51
Seems like the only ones aloud to to make more than Joe Nose picker are validators and above. The rest of us keep getting nerfed over and over. (edited)
💯 1
facepalm 1
👎 1
Avatar
Avatar
Anthonyra
Honestly I think this isn’t in regards to this HIP directly but how HIPs are voted on. #hip-41-governance-by-token-lock-v2 is the best channel for said concerns… (edited)
Thanks and I agree has nothing to do with this hip- people bring it up in this thread without any relevance
Avatar
Avatar
*Big Pimpin* (Not Jack Sparrow)
Seems like the only ones aloud to to make more than Joe Nose picker are validators and above. The rest of us keep getting nerfed over and over. (edited)
Validator returns as a % is not as good as the average hotspot.
👆 1
Avatar
Avatar
backtran
Thanks and I agree has nothing to do with this hip- people bring it up in this thread without any relevance
It is relevant. The voting system is not letting people express their view. We get only some thumbs down and ironic replies here.
Avatar
Avatar
*Big Pimpin* (Not Jack Sparrow)
Ok, read the HIP. What real benefit does this HIP provide the community? This is going to stop gamers? 😂. Ok, limit then for a couple days untill they adjust fire. Seems this hip is more geared to off grid setups and those in mountains and towers. There has always been hate towards those can kill it with providing good coverage and being able to see further than Joe nose picker with his antenna behind a brick wall in the basement that doesn't put in the effort to make his/her setup better. In the end, it doesn't matter. The people trying to earn good off this will still get nerfed. (edited)
It's a pity that they don't want to see this view. I will not try anymore to optimize my miners. I will put my miners behind a wall. It will not make any difference, anyhow. Instead of giving more rewards to people who try to reach further meaning that they have better positions and they can already give better coverage than others in the same area, they punish them for being good.
06:45
The only argument I hear is that a crappy sensor can't reach more than 50km. This argument is very vague for putting such a limitation in rewards. Reward system is fair for people who try to give the best. That's the philosophy of PoC and any other proof of something concept. We just have to accept that this bad HIP will be voted and continue our lives
Avatar
Avatar
mixtri
It's a pity that they don't want to see this view. I will not try anymore to optimize my miners. I will put my miners behind a wall. It will not make any difference, anyhow. Instead of giving more rewards to people who try to reach further meaning that they have better positions and they can already give better coverage than others in the same area, they punish them for being good.
I'm not sure I agree. It seems to me that the off-grid executions exploit the PoC philosophy, by pinning it against the good of the network. Why not pour the energy and effort into optimizing your grid that provides practical, usable development to the network? Putting a hotspot in the middle of nowhere, out of range of any reasonable use of sensors or peripherals sounds to me like it's about exploiting the PoC mechanism, not truly building the network for the good of all.
👍 1
Avatar
Avatar
mixtri
It's a pity that they don't want to see this view. I will not try anymore to optimize my miners. I will put my miners behind a wall. It will not make any difference, anyhow. Instead of giving more rewards to people who try to reach further meaning that they have better positions and they can already give better coverage than others in the same area, they punish them for being good.
I really don't understand your logic. With your hotspot at >100km distance from another hotspot, the likelihood of you ever getting sensor data is so damn slim. You are only going to pick up the random backwoods skier or hiker. If you are covering a highway, then yes you will get that passing traffic but nothing else. The hotspot that is within the average range of a sensor's reach of 30-50km is going to receive the data before you have any chance. Proof-of-coverage should map the use-case of the network; this HIP better aligns the rewards to the need of the network.
07:52
And you can stop with the straw man argument of comparing to a lazy host with their hotspot in a basement; none of us are arguing for that kind of set up either. (edited)
💯 1
Avatar
Avatar
KeithR
I really don't understand your logic. With your hotspot at >100km distance from another hotspot, the likelihood of you ever getting sensor data is so damn slim. You are only going to pick up the random backwoods skier or hiker. If you are covering a highway, then yes you will get that passing traffic but nothing else. The hotspot that is within the average range of a sensor's reach of 30-50km is going to receive the data before you have any chance. Proof-of-coverage should map the use-case of the network; this HIP better aligns the rewards to the need of the network.
You don't really understand my logic. That's true. Please read again what I wrote. If there is no reason for reward there is no reason for punishment either. But that's your view. In the future there will be sensors with much better antennas. Why should we exclude them? Why the PoC should be punish oriented? Punish the gamers. Not the audience. Last word. I accept that this hip will be applied. But I'm not happy. :)
👍 1
Avatar
Avatar
mixtri
You don't really understand my logic. That's true. Please read again what I wrote. If there is no reason for reward there is no reason for punishment either. But that's your view. In the future there will be sensors with much better antennas. Why should we exclude them? Why the PoC should be punish oriented? Punish the gamers. Not the audience. Last word. I accept that this hip will be applied. But I'm not happy. :)
Much better antennas on sensors will still be picked up by the hotspot closer than you. The purpose of the network is to onramp sensor data. Your middle of nowhere hotspot was a poor decision; you have been exploiting PoC for long enough. The cheaters are exploiting PoC; far more offensively than you for sure. If >100km witnesses are the only thing keeping your hotspot online, it is of little to no value to the network just like the hotspot in the basement. I appreciate the folks putting hotspots in the middle of nowhere to cover long strips of highway; I really do. But putting them there is not economically savvy. Putting them in a basement is not either. Good setups are ones that will hear sensors. If you are >30km from the sensor, you are so unlikely to get that data because some other hotspot is close enough to get it before you. (edited)
💯 1
Avatar
I set it in this way. You have two hotspots at the same area. One reaching 130km and one reaching 10km. The one that is covering up to 130km potentially offers much better coverage in the same areas for the ones that are covered from the 10km range.
👎 1
Avatar
Not at all. The hotspot within 10km of the sensors has your hotspot beat hands down. You won't be getting squat.
Avatar
The guy that has better setup should be rewarded. Not punished.
Avatar
Avatar
mixtri
The guy that has better setup should be rewarded. Not punished.
On this we completely agree. However, you are not the one with the better set up.
👆 1
Avatar
Avatar
KeithR
Not at all. The hotspot within 10km of the sensors has your hotspot beat hands down. You won't be getting squat.
I've spent all my life in radio planning. This is absolutely wrong.
🥱 1
08:04
Especially when it comes to coverage. If we talk about capacity and noise is different thing.
08:05
But if we talk about rural coverage then things adverse.
Avatar
The hotspot on the barn is going to get the cow sensor hands down before your hotspot out on the highway 100 km out of town and 100 km from the next town. The farmer has no need to pay more than one hotspot for her data. You are going to catch the truck that drives by; amen to that. PoC rewards need be aligned with the purpose of the network. The bummer part is that if it weren't for the cheaters, we wouldn't need to do this. Your anger should be directed at them for screwing you over.
Avatar
Yes, but the direction is wrong. Gamers will find another way to play and at the end we will have one more PoC limitation in our pocket. I hate cheaters as much you do. maybe more. You never know :)
Avatar
Avatar
mixtri
Yes, but the direction is wrong. Gamers will find another way to play and at the end we will have one more PoC limitation in our pocket. I hate cheaters as much you do. maybe more. You never know :)
Yes, cheaters will adapt. But with this HIP, cheating will become more expensive. It is convenient that over 50km is out of alignment of the network's needs. It is generous that the HIP's author chose >100km.
Avatar
I will cap my power is this way. I will drop it 10db. Some sensors will get out of coverage. Two farms and one factory of cement in Greece.
08:17
Does this sound good?
Avatar
Why would you limit your ability to actually pass data?
Avatar
I will cap my power symmetrically.
08:18
Attenuator
08:19
So I can't receive useless beacons and they can't listen to me
08:19
I will have the setup that the network wants.
Avatar
You will still get the data that happens to not already be heard from the hotspot closer. You will still get the truck's data that drives through your stretch of highway. The cheaters are only taking away your PoC rewards that are out of alignment from the needs of the network.
Avatar
I don't think that the PoCs over 100km were so many that people cared soooo much. Except from the cheaters. Yes, we all care about this
08:21
But I'll cap my DL and UL so I get 0 invalid. That's good for me. Bad for the coverage. But who cares.
08:21
10dB less coverage in my area.
Avatar
You are discussing the invalid witness part of this HIP. That still seems financially imprudent to decrease your power. If you are getting >100km witnesses as a majority part of your 14 of x witnesses on a regular basis, then it seems like you are not getting many witnesses as is. In which case, again you are out of alignment with the network's needs. The occasional >100km witness does not hurt anyone if it is made invalid. If they are a majority of your witnesses, then yes you are a not a good setup (probably great from a broadcast perspective but not for LoRWAN's needs). (edited)
Avatar
Yes, so if I need to optimize my setup I'll need to cap it. :) To get always max number of witnesses and not witness any useless beacons. I might not receive also some data but ok, data is too little to care these days. I prefer PoC to work better. Can you see how wrong is this?
Avatar
Plus, given that my 5.8 antennas with no bypass filters and no amplifiers get >100km witnesses every day, decreasing your power is not going to solve your issue in the way that you intend. (edited)
Avatar
Avatar
mattyk84
I'm not sure I agree. It seems to me that the off-grid executions exploit the PoC philosophy, by pinning it against the good of the network. Why not pour the energy and effort into optimizing your grid that provides practical, usable development to the network? Putting a hotspot in the middle of nowhere, out of range of any reasonable use of sensors or peripherals sounds to me like it's about exploiting the PoC mechanism, not truly building the network for the good of all.
Yeah it seems that it is shame to be born in the middle of nowhere. So, please nuke us!
😆 1
Avatar
Avatar
KeithR
Plus, given that my 5.8 antennas with no bypass filters and no amplifiers get >100km witnesses every day, decreasing your power is not going to solve your issue in the way that you intend. (edited)
I'll calculate to the reception limit of the >100km and I'll remove it from the chain.
08:29
My calculation is that a 10dB attenuator will be fine
Avatar
Avatar
mixtri
I'll calculate to the reception limit of the >100km and I'll remove it from the chain.
You are ruining your chance to receive data from more than 100km then. Seems imprudent.
Avatar
Avatar
KeithR
You are ruining your chance to receive data from more than 100km then. Seems imprudent.
But the network doesn't want them anyhow.
Avatar
Avatar
mixtri
But the network doesn't want them anyhow.
Yes it does. It would prefer you to be closer to ensure you are hearing data. If you catch the random data then fantastic, the network will pay you for it. Why would you want to limit the amount of data you can receive? If you are installing out in the middle of nowhere, you had to know it was economically weak to be out there. That is why it is called "the middle of nowhere".
Avatar
Avatar
KeithR
Yes it does. It would prefer you to be closer to ensure you are hearing data. If you catch the random data then fantastic, the network will pay you for it. Why would you want to limit the amount of data you can receive? If you are installing out in the middle of nowhere, you had to know it was economically weak to be out there. That is why it is called "the middle of nowhere".
Because I need to attenuate to get less invalids in my beacons. At first step I will care about the PoC activity as it is now. Till now I would be extremely happy to serve from my awesome location people that are far.
Avatar
Avatar
mixtri
Because I need to attenuate to get less invalids in my beacons. At first step I will care about the PoC activity as it is now. Till now I would be extremely happy to serve from my awesome location people that are far.
If >100km witnesses are taking up too much of your 14 allowed, then you aren't witnessing many hotspots <100km. So again, I don't see how attenuating is beneficial. Or are you saying you need to attenuate all of the amplification that you have done?
Avatar
Avatar
KeithR
If >100km witnesses are taking up too much of your 14 allowed, then you aren't witnessing many hotspots <100km. So again, I don't see how attenuating is beneficial. Or are you saying you need to attenuate all of the amplification that you have done?
I have no amplifiers. They are useless in Helium... The attenuation would help me to get always the maximum beacon reward. I have many others close to me. Still I'm witnessing and being witnessed by hotspots being far. I will clear them. Along with them I'll clear some coverage.
Avatar
Avatar
mixtri
I have no amplifiers. They are useless in Helium... The attenuation would help me to get always the maximum beacon reward. I have many others close to me. Still I'm witnessing and being witnessed by hotspots being far. I will clear them. Along with them I'll clear some coverage.
So if you are plenty close to other hotspots, just swap out with a lower gain antenna; no need for an 8. 5.8 will do just fine. Maybe even the 3 will be prudent. Don't spend extra money on some attenuation device.
Avatar
VelocityJohn 04/10/2022 8:43 AM
The downside of this HIP will be that if someone that is up to no good has multiple packet forwarders spread throughout Europe, then what happens when they are forced to put all of the packet forwarders within 100km... I believe that area would then be saturated by rewards theft instead of it being spread out. I think people would definitely be able to notice the drop in earnings in that area. This is a quick fix for the problem which is why I think so many have voted yes, but will only bring other different problems and technically the same losses of beacons would happen?
Avatar
Avatar
KeithR
So if you are plenty close to other hotspots, just swap out with a lower gain antenna; no need for an 8. 5.8 will do just fine. Maybe even the 3 will be prudent. Don't spend extra money on some attenuation device.
I'll not spend a euro anymore. I have plenty of attenuators for this frequency in the lab. Enough is enough.
Avatar
Avatar
VelocityJohn
The downside of this HIP will be that if someone that is up to no good has multiple packet forwarders spread throughout Europe, then what happens when they are forced to put all of the packet forwarders within 100km... I believe that area would then be saturated by rewards theft instead of it being spread out. I think people would definitely be able to notice the drop in earnings in that area. This is a quick fix for the problem which is why I think so many have voted yes, but will only bring other different problems and technically the same losses of beacons would happen?
Their profits will be diminished with this HIP while the system detects their cheating and then adds them to the denylist.
Avatar
Avatar
VelocityJohn
The downside of this HIP will be that if someone that is up to no good has multiple packet forwarders spread throughout Europe, then what happens when they are forced to put all of the packet forwarders within 100km... I believe that area would then be saturated by rewards theft instead of it being spread out. I think people would definitely be able to notice the drop in earnings in that area. This is a quick fix for the problem which is why I think so many have voted yes, but will only bring other different problems and technically the same losses of beacons would happen?
they would simply create more smaller cells of gaming clusters to maximise for their faked location
Avatar
The detection process takes too long in this example.
Avatar
Avatar
mixtri
I'll not spend a euro anymore. I have plenty of attenuators for this frequency in the lab. Enough is enough.
VelocityJohn 04/10/2022 8:47 AM
Can see your frustration but look at it this way, this HIP causes >100km beacons to be invalid, but at least those rewards you didnt get stay in the pot for the POC and dont get diverted to other parts of the network 👍
Avatar
Avatar
MoreDPS
they would simply create more smaller cells of gaming clusters to maximise for their faked location
VelocityJohn 04/10/2022 8:48 AM
I think so unfortunately.
Avatar
Avatar
VelocityJohn
Can see your frustration but look at it this way, this HIP causes >100km beacons to be invalid, but at least those rewards you didnt get stay in the pot for the POC and dont get diverted to other parts of the network 👍
That's the positive side haha 👍
Avatar
They are stealing 10s of millions of dollars from us every year (probably more often but I don't want to think about that). I would like that back. This HIP is a really low cost solution to get it.
Avatar
and the HIP-58 github information is misleading https://github.com/helium/HIP/issues/384 "Although a Helium Hotspot may be able to see PoC beacons greater than 100 km, there are NO current use cases at this range. " linked below is one of many sensors with an external attachment which is capable of 100km+. https://discord.com/channels/404106811252408320/960583430612070420/962527988581290034
HIP 58: PoC Distance Limit Author(s): @abhay, @mrpatrick1991, et al Start Date: 2022-04-02 Category: Technical Original HIP PR: #381 Tracking Issue: #384 (this) Status: In Discussion Summary The Pr...
Avatar
Nothing stops the data passing through a hotspot at >100km.
Avatar
Avatar
KeithR
They are stealing 10s of millions of dollars from us every year (probably more often but I don't want to think about that). I would like that back. This HIP is a really low cost solution to get it.
Can't we vote for a hip to remove the rewards from these people once they are caught.
👎 1
Avatar
But the hotspot closer probably already captured the data.
Avatar
Avatar
KeithR
But the hotspot closer probably already captured the data.
not in rural areas with population densitylike here.
Avatar
Avatar
mixtri
Can't we vote for a hip to remove the rewards from these people once they are caught.
I would shout from the mountain tops and be a barker on the streets for a way to clawback those tokens. But the downside of decentralized cryptocurrency is that we don't get that ability.
Avatar
VelocityJohn 04/10/2022 8:56 AM
They will get around it, I wish it was that simple. I wont write a HIP but my solution would be to have a researcher at Helium look at the top 20 hotspots daily and check them, immediately suspend through the validators for investigation. That is exactly how all of the people that kick off on the Discord daily spot the gamers. Its that simple. But I know if I was to put forward a HIP they would find a way around what I suggested too. Probably break it down to make it less detectable, or earn a bit then shut the hotspot down before it gets to the top of the leaderboard.
❤️ 2
Avatar
Avatar
MoreDPS
not in rural areas with population densitylike here.
I think you mean there is unlikely to be a hotspot closer in that example. Because if there is one in town, it is getting the data not you (unless the sensor owner pays for more than one hotspot to pass her data).
Avatar
Avatar
KeithR
Nothing stops the data passing through a hotspot at >100km.
VelocityJohn 04/10/2022 8:57 AM
Also an important point.
Avatar
Avatar
VelocityJohn
They will get around it, I wish it was that simple. I wont write a HIP but my solution would be to have a researcher at Helium look at the top 20 hotspots daily and check them, immediately suspend through the validators for investigation. That is exactly how all of the people that kick off on the Discord daily spot the gamers. Its that simple. But I know if I was to put forward a HIP they would find a way around what I suggested too. Probably break it down to make it less detectable, or earn a bit then shut the hotspot down before it gets to the top of the leaderboard.
Adding them to the denylist is easy enough if you have enough community-trusted monitors. But that doesn't allow us to clawback their ill-gotten gains.
👍 1
Avatar
it also makes no sense to apply one limit to different regions , 16db vs 30db and different frequency loss over distance , 433mhz travels 6db better over 100km compared to 928mhz over 100km.
Avatar
Avatar
MoreDPS
it also makes no sense to apply one limit to different regions , 16db vs 30db and different frequency loss over distance , 433mhz travels 6db better over 100km compared to 928mhz over 100km.
But 100 km is the same regardless of transmission power. The hotspot at 30 km gets the signal first.
Avatar
Avatar
KeithR
Adding them to the denylist is easy enough if you have enough community-trusted monitors. But that doesn't allow us to clawback their ill-gotten gains.
VelocityJohn 04/10/2022 9:02 AM
Once they have it its gone. Its a full time job for someone to monitor the situation to catch it as early as possible so less is lost to them.
Avatar
Avatar
KeithR
But 100 km is the same regardless of transmission power. The hotspot at 30 km gets the signal first.
i agree thats true if your assuming there are any hostopts in the middle
09:04
but also at 100km transmision power does matter if the signal isnt above -130db the receivers chip wont decode it usually so having that extra DB does count
Avatar
Avatar
MoreDPS
i agree thats true if your assuming there are any hostopts in the middle
Unfortunately the unyielding truth is that being that far from anything is less economically rewarding as being in a more dense area. If there was a way to charge more data credits for passing data out in the middle of nowhere, I would support that. Rewarding a hotspot for simply being out there is not something I can get behind; it just doesn't align with the use case of the network. Charging more for the passing of the data does though.
Avatar
agricultural uses have big potential here
Avatar
Agree. But they aren't going to count on your hotspot 150 km away. They are going to buy their own hotspot and put it on the farm so that they can guarantee the collection of the data. (edited)
👍 1
09:07
You need to already being in a place to guarantee the data gets passed...<30 km.
09:08
If that, given topology of the area.
Avatar
VelocityJohn 04/10/2022 9:24 AM
I guess my weekly beacon in Burkina Faso is off the cards then.
🚀 2
coolcry 3
Avatar
Avatar
VelocityJohn
I guess my weekly beacon in Burkina Faso is off the cards then.
Unless there are no hotspots between you and that sensor and the sensor has an 10 dbi antenna on it and it is plugged into a significant power supply to pump that 10 dbi antenna your way. So there is a thread of hope for you still....but the PoC reward is definitely gone (I am predicting the outcome of the HIP). (edited)
09:37
And the sensor is in a u-shaped lead container that only points your way.
09:37
Otherwise the hotspot in Sicily is getting the data.
Avatar
VelocityJohn 04/10/2022 9:38 AM
I know, Its just funny that its one of my regular beacons. Its probably in Wales somewhere but asserted in Africa for some unknown reason.
Avatar
How long has that been happening?
09:39
Not a result of procrastination of it being sent there?
Avatar
Avatar
KeithR
Otherwise the hotspot in Sicily is getting the data.
VelocityJohn 04/10/2022 9:41 AM
Wales, South of England, Guernsey, Jersey, France, Spain, Algeria, Mali all getting that data before me. 5th time Ive had that beacon yesterday.
Avatar
So this HIP will curtail their extra profits as well. Yet another upside of this HIP! They are maximizing their witnessing by being mis-asserted (I am assuming they are an actual hotspot out but just incorrectly asserted). I am guessing they are doing so that they are in a 1.0 transmit area and not in a dense low transmit area. That makes me happy they will be curtailed by this HIP. (edited)
👍 2
Avatar
So when are we going to invalidate witnesses with rssi less than -130? Cause these are surely not going to be picked up by them sensors with tiny antennas. You wanna prepare the network for sensors and data, right? Bye bye witnessing with a pathetic stock antenna placed indoors, seems like fair game to me. (edited)
coolcry 1
Avatar
Avatar
belzebut
So when are we going to invalidate witnesses with rssi less than -130? Cause these are surely not going to be picked up by them sensors with tiny antennas. You wanna prepare the network for sensors and data, right? Bye bye witnessing with a pathetic stock antenna placed indoors, seems like fair game to me. (edited)
Generate a chart using the ETL data and you can win this idea hands down. 🙂. And I assume your phrasing is referring to the downlink back to the sensor at that range. Because the hotspot might hear the sensor at that RSSI. (edited)
Avatar
Avatar
KeithR
Generate a chart using the ETL data and you can win this idea hands down. 🙂. And I assume your phrasing is referring to the downlink back to the sensor at that range. Because the hotspot might hear the sensor at that RSSI. (edited)
It's -130 when a hotspot with a dedicated antenna transmits the signal, surely it won't be that when the tiny sensor sends it
Avatar
Avatar
mattyk84
I'm not sure I agree. It seems to me that the off-grid executions exploit the PoC philosophy, by pinning it against the good of the network. Why not pour the energy and effort into optimizing your grid that provides practical, usable development to the network? Putting a hotspot in the middle of nowhere, out of range of any reasonable use of sensors or peripherals sounds to me like it's about exploiting the PoC mechanism, not truly building the network for the good of all.
*Big Pimpin* (Not Jack Sparrow) 04/10/2022 1:10 PM
Not sure if you knew this. But EXPANSION of the network is a GOOD thing. Did you know coverage is needed in areas that don't have it? Do you know why? So sensors can be used there. I know shocking concept. Or, are you of the the mind that only cities that are saturated should have best and dense coverage and rewards scale higher there?
👍 1
Avatar
*Big Pimpin* (Not Jack Sparrow) 04/10/2022 1:25 PM
Isn't EXPANSION what has been preached? Remember grow the network? Optimize your setup? No, don't put another hotspot in a crowded hex, yes it is better to move it to the edge of the city or farther. Yes we need them in rural areas. This just another HIP that is has a wee bit of " we going after the cheaters/gamers" in it, but...in reality. It is just yet another way to nerf earnings of those who put the time and effort to optimize setups. Helium needs new people to come aboard this "decentralized" network. Otherwise,Joe nose picker will not invest in the equipment. People will not come based on "seems like a good idea even though there is really nothing in it for me". Only the very small percentage will do that, but for monetary reasons due to foresight of what could be. Let's not fool ourselves here. People hate those that have good setups and are earning well, legitimately. Those that cry the loudest and try to justify it. (edited)
👍 1
13:30
This is why, no price talk. This is why, no ROI talk. Don't want people to have an idea it takes a while, is it really worth to invest? That's the reason why no talk of that when every other crypto project out there does. Nice foresight Helium. Kinda brilliant to get people to actually defend that.
👍 1
Avatar
*Big Pimpin* (Not Jack Sparrow) 04/10/2022 1:39 PM
Remember, rules are put in place for a reason. Pretty sure that reason is because of just what I stated above. It's not "decentralized" when those holding vasts amount of HNT get to decide the outcome of the votes. This has been proven a few times now.
👍 1
Avatar
Avatar
*Big Pimpin* (Not Jack Sparrow)
Isn't EXPANSION what has been preached? Remember grow the network? Optimize your setup? No, don't put another hotspot in a crowded hex, yes it is better to move it to the edge of the city or farther. Yes we need them in rural areas. This just another HIP that is has a wee bit of " we going after the cheaters/gamers" in it, but...in reality. It is just yet another way to nerf earnings of those who put the time and effort to optimize setups. Helium needs new people to come aboard this "decentralized" network. Otherwise,Joe nose picker will not invest in the equipment. People will not come based on "seems like a good idea even though there is really nothing in it for me". Only the very small percentage will do that, but for monetary reasons due to foresight of what could be. Let's not fool ourselves here. People hate those that have good setups and are earning well, legitimately. Those that cry the loudest and try to justify it. (edited)
Expansion should be handled by hip15 and hip17, not this. If you optimized your hotspot for high earnings, you optimized it for the wrong thing. You should optimize for sensor coverage. Also, check this HIP data, hotspots that are not cheating, are not affected or are very minimally affected (edited)
Avatar
Avatar
ricopt5
Expansion should be handled by hip15 and hip17, not this. If you optimized your hotspot for high earnings, you optimized it for the wrong thing. You should optimize for sensor coverage. Also, check this HIP data, hotspots that are not cheating, are not affected or are very minimally affected (edited)
*Big Pimpin* (Not Jack Sparrow) 04/10/2022 1:42 PM
Expansion is what is needed, growth, whether you think OTG or mountain or tower setups are not. They are. They provide much better coverage and expansion due to one thing. Height is KING for radio propagation for this RF freq . There is no denying that.
👍 1
Avatar
Avatar
*Big Pimpin* (Not Jack Sparrow)
Remember, rules are put in place for a reason. Pretty sure that reason is because of just what I stated above. It's not "decentralized" when those holding vasts amount of HNT get to decide the outcome of the votes. This has been proven a few times now.
That hasn’t been proven at all, just repeating the same story without evidence doesn’t make it true. So far there hasn’t been a vote where the vote count went one way and the weighed vote the other as far as I know. There is a place for discussion about the voting process and it isn’t here.
Avatar
*Big Pimpin* (Not Jack Sparrow) 04/10/2022 1:44 PM
Oh yes there has been. I've been around here for a hot min. I have seen the vote get pushed in the opposite direction of what the people wanted in the last few hours of voting. That was due to the wallets voting that have vast amounts. Others that have been here for a while.have seen it. Just waking up here. (I'm in Japan for work), but it has happened to my knowledge, three times this far. (edited)
Avatar
Deleted User 04/10/2022 1:46 PM
this helium is full of jalousy
13:46
nothing more or less
Avatar
I’ve looked up heliumvote.com and can’t find one but maybe those have fallen of the page already.
Avatar
Deleted User 04/10/2022 1:46 PM
and only 10 % know something about RF and what they doing
13:46
accept it
Avatar
*Big Pimpin* (Not Jack Sparrow) 04/10/2022 1:46 PM
Don't get me wrong. I have earned some decent HNT from this. I just invested a lot into OTGs and haven't earned it back yet. This HIP is just another one that nerfs that, yet again.
Avatar
Deleted User 04/10/2022 1:47 PM
indeed
13:47
it's a slap in our face
Avatar
Avatar
*Big Pimpin* (Not Jack Sparrow)
Don't get me wrong. I have earned some decent HNT from this. I just invested a lot into OTGs and haven't earned it back yet. This HIP is just another one that nerfs that, yet again.
Have you looked at the ETL if that is actually the case?
Avatar
Deleted User 04/10/2022 1:47 PM
for those who went big as pro's
13:47
renting poles and premium locations
13:47
i feel used by helium with tall this shit
13:47
no respect to us
Avatar
Avatar
Deleted User
it's a slap in our face
For you I know it’s not the case.
Avatar
Deleted User 04/10/2022 1:48 PM
in general bro in general
13:48
this month i will have big loses
13:48
75 % of my hotspots don't do a thing
Avatar
*Big Pimpin* (Not Jack Sparrow) 04/10/2022 1:48 PM
Yes of course, I am not Joe nose picker looking for a quick buck. I want this to work. I want corps to invest and dump their money into it. I want to earn like everyone else. But continuing to nerf your "people" aka customers is not good for business.
Avatar
Deleted User 04/10/2022 1:48 PM
the home miners on tv desk do better then those on poles 😄
13:48
it's not only about this hip58
13:48
it's in general i'm talking
Avatar
Not because of this HIP so stop using this HIP to vent about a general p2p problem that everyone is working hard to solve.
Avatar
Deleted User 04/10/2022 1:48 PM
like we would have a meeting between managers and the ceo 🙂
13:49
meanwhile seednodes get ddosed 😄
Avatar
Avatar
groot
Not because of this HIP so stop using this HIP to vent about a general p2p problem that everyone is working hard to solve.
Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 04/10/2022 1:49 PM
most people are just bitching, but those working are working hella hard
Avatar
Avatar
Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST)
most people are just bitching, but those working are working hella hard
Complaining is obviously easy, but it creates noise when it has absolutely nothing to do with this HIP.
Avatar
Deleted User 04/10/2022 1:50 PM
i agree i'm bitching as this shit can't be stable for a long time at least and it's worser then a rollercoaster . you know what happend ? that i don't order more atm ...
13:50
i was able to order / place 100 more ....
Avatar
Avatar
*Big Pimpin* (Not Jack Sparrow)
Yes of course, I am not Joe nose picker looking for a quick buck. I want this to work. I want corps to invest and dump their money into it. I want to earn like everyone else. But continuing to nerf your "people" aka customers is not good for business.
So are you affected or not? And by how much?
Avatar
Avatar
groot
Complaining is obviously easy, but it creates noise when it has absolutely nothing to do with this HIP.
*Big Pimpin* (Not Jack Sparrow) 04/10/2022 1:50 PM
Ah so none of my points are valid at all. Just bitching. Got it. 😂
Avatar
Deleted User 04/10/2022 1:50 PM
but how it's going now ? nah sorry and you can't blame me for this how i think atm
13:50
proof me wrong
13:50
and ok i will shut up till end of month and see 🙂
13:50
i accepted this month i will LOSE 🙂
Avatar
Avatar
*Big Pimpin* (Not Jack Sparrow)
Ah so none of my points are valid at all. Just bitching. Got it. 😂
Wasn’t referring to you.
Avatar
Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 04/10/2022 1:50 PM
That's really for blockchain developement not hip 58. but if people would learn the network before tampering with things it'd not be so over taxed
Avatar
Avatar
groot
So are you affected or not? And by how much?
*Big Pimpin* (Not Jack Sparrow) 04/10/2022 1:51 PM
Will see. Real world results are 👑. Kinda like disco mode. Useless really.
Avatar
Deleted User 04/10/2022 1:51 PM
it's so easy to tell all the time network network building building ... sorry not 100 % agree in this 🙂
13:51
i also know there will be isues time to tilme, like everywhere
13:51
it's the ratio and follow up on it ..
Avatar
Avatar
groot
Wasn’t referring to you.
*Big Pimpin* (Not Jack Sparrow) 04/10/2022 1:51 PM
Rgr. Ty
Avatar
Avatar
*Big Pimpin* (Not Jack Sparrow)
Will see. Real world results are 👑. Kinda like disco mode. Useless really.
The ETL dashboard shows real world results, from any time period you choose?
Avatar
*Big Pimpin* (Not Jack Sparrow) 04/10/2022 1:52 PM
You are right, this HIP hasn't been implemented yet. Right?
Avatar
Avatar
*Big Pimpin* (Not Jack Sparrow)
Oh yes there has been. I've been around here for a hot min. I have seen the vote get pushed in the opposite direction of what the people wanted in the last few hours of voting. That was due to the wallets voting that have vast amounts. Others that have been here for a while.have seen it. Just waking up here. (I'm in Japan for work), but it has happened to my knowledge, three times this far. (edited)
validators hold over 35 million HNT. The way I predict votes is based on how it impacts validators. Whatever the validators want, they get.
Avatar
Deleted User 04/10/2022 1:52 PM
sure as this voting is useless
Avatar
Avatar
*Big Pimpin* (Not Jack Sparrow)
You are right, this HIP hasn't been implemented yet. Right?
Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 04/10/2022 1:52 PM
correct
Avatar
Avatar
pvtfumble
validators hold over 35 million HNT. The way I predict votes is based on how it impacts validators. Whatever the validators want, they get.
*Big Pimpin* (Not Jack Sparrow) 04/10/2022 1:52 PM
Right. This is the way.
Avatar
Deleted User 04/10/2022 1:52 PM
each user should have 1 vote
13:52
that's called democracy
13:52
nomather how many HNT you got
13:53
and not the amount of hnt makes the weight ...
Avatar
Not the place for voting problems, but so far no matter how you weigh it the outcome stays the same.
Avatar
Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 04/10/2022 1:53 PM
i love that you argue for the opposite in voting of what you complain about this hip for.
Avatar
Avatar
Deleted User
that's called democracy
right? It is like Gates or Musk having billions of votes compared to our one.
Avatar
Deleted User 04/10/2022 1:54 PM
i admit i'm sceptical and lost a lot of faith last weeks ....
👍 2
13:54
i hope i'm wrong and you all can shut me the mount in some weeks
13:54
i will be the first to admit i was a panic bitch for nothing
Avatar
Avatar
pvtfumble
right? It is like Gates or Musk having billions of votes compared to our one.
The US is a bad example if you want to argue one man one vote though. Money is king there.
Avatar
Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 04/10/2022 1:54 PM
you want some hotspots treated better because you feel they give more value to the netork, but you don't want the value of hnt earned/held to count for votes
Avatar
Avatar
groot
The US is a bad example if you want to argue one man one vote though. Money is king there.
*Big Pimpin* (Not Jack Sparrow) 04/10/2022 1:54 PM
Money is king 👑 anywhere
Avatar
Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 04/10/2022 1:55 PM
☝
Avatar
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 04/10/2022 1:55 PM
It's starting to get off-topic, could we go back to discussing #hip-58-poc-distance-limit
Avatar
Avatar
*Big Pimpin* (Not Jack Sparrow)
Money is king 👑 anywhere
Pretty much true, yes. But can we go back to my question, how much did it affect you if implemented 60 days ago?
Avatar
Avatar
Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST)
you want some hotspots treated better because you feel they give more value to the netork, but you don't want the value of hnt earned/held to count for votes
*Big Pimpin* (Not Jack Sparrow) 04/10/2022 1:56 PM
Then don't market it as the "peoples" network when in reality, it isn't. The people help build it. But not on their terms. They dont get a real vote unless they invest an absolute shit ton. (edited)
Avatar
Avatar
groot
Pretty much true, yes. But can we go back to my question, how much did it affect you if implemented 60 days ago?
Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 04/10/2022 1:56 PM
i was kinda sad, i have a 15 and 20 meter deployment, and tampa bay to broadcast over and never went over 70km
Avatar
I think the point is, this hip is pointless. It won't solve any major problems in this network. Just a distraction.
Avatar
Avatar
*Big Pimpin* (Not Jack Sparrow)
Then don't market it as the "peoples" network when in reality, it isn't. The people help build it. But not on their terms. They dont get a real vote unless they invest an absolute shit ton. (edited)
I don’t understand this one, on the one hand you want OTG’s to have preferential treatment while on the other hand when it comes to voting everyone should be equal?
Avatar
Avatar
pvtfumble
I think the point is, this hip is pointless. It won't solve any major problems in this network. Just a distraction.
*Big Pimpin* (Not Jack Sparrow) 04/10/2022 1:57 PM
More than a distraction (edited)
Avatar
Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 04/10/2022 1:58 PM
It is the people's network. you can design your setup, use your own software, run your own seed nodes and ddns, write a hip, vote for hips, turn your machines off.
Avatar
The thing is there is a weird mentality in here, people judge you even if you mention Helium and money in the same sentence. They think it’s a revolution, or that it’s some cool club they are part of, and maybe it is a bit of that, but first and foremost it’s a money making business. So yeah, most of us are into Helium because we want to make money. Why do you think Helium grew so much, so fast, because people want to support the project? And some are more dedicated and determined to make money and will go to greater lengths to do that with crazy setups and will actually provide great coverage and add a lot of value to the network. A setup providing 10x the coverage of the average hotspot should earn 10x the average. And you want examples of that, people get inspired by that and will try to improve their setups to earn more. Thus, they will compete with each other, to provide better coverage and the network will be better. Any move to nerf that top earners is a bad move.
👍 1
Avatar
Avatar
Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST)
It is the people's network. you can design your setup, use your own software, run your own seed nodes and ddns, write a hip, vote for hips, turn your machines off.
*Big Pimpin* (Not Jack Sparrow) 04/10/2022 1:59 PM
Except when it comes to voting on decisions that affect the outcome of the network. The people really have no say.
Avatar
Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 04/10/2022 2:00 PM
write a better hip for voting then. if the people want it, they'll vote for it.
Avatar
Avatar
belzebut
The thing is there is a weird mentality in here, people judge you even if you mention Helium and money in the same sentence. They think it’s a revolution, or that it’s some cool club they are part of, and maybe it is a bit of that, but first and foremost it’s a money making business. So yeah, most of us are into Helium because we want to make money. Why do you think Helium grew so much, so fast, because people want to support the project? And some are more dedicated and determined to make money and will go to greater lengths to do that with crazy setups and will actually provide great coverage and add a lot of value to the network. A setup providing 10x the coverage of the average hotspot should earn 10x the average. And you want examples of that, people get inspired by that and will try to improve their setups to earn more. Thus, they will compete with each other, to provide better coverage and the network will be better. Any move to nerf that top earners is a bad move.
*Big Pimpin* (Not Jack Sparrow) 04/10/2022 2:00 PM
Exactly and we'll said 💯
Avatar
I’ll draw my own conclusions from your continuous evasion of my question about how much you are affected.
Avatar
Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 04/10/2022 2:02 PM
I've still not seen a use case for data transfer that gives a need for PoC at over 100km
Avatar
Avatar
groot
I’ll draw my own conclusions from your continuous evasion of my question about how much you are affected.
*Big Pimpin* (Not Jack Sparrow) 04/10/2022 2:02 PM
Let me make it clear. HIP HASN'T been implemented yet. No real world results. I could speculate, that my moutain setups will loose 10-20% earnings due to this hip as I get many POC over 100km. Point is, like belzebut said, don't slap your customers "people" in the face that help expand and provide better coverage in the face. Not good for business. Word soreds fast AF in our connected age. Influencers can help make or kill a project.
Avatar
Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 04/10/2022 2:03 PM
without that, I'd have to side with the hip even if it cost me earnings.
Avatar
Avatar
*Big Pimpin* (Not Jack Sparrow)
Let me make it clear. HIP HASN'T been implemented yet. No real world results. I could speculate, that my moutain setups will loose 10-20% earnings due to this hip as I get many POC over 100km. Point is, like belzebut said, don't slap your customers "people" in the face that help expand and provide better coverage in the face. Not good for business. Word soreds fast AF in our connected age. Influencers can help make or kill a project.
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 04/10/2022 2:03 PM
Just for clarification, miners are not the customers, sensor users are
💯 2
Avatar
Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 04/10/2022 2:03 PM
it will cost me 0% of my witness and beacons.
Avatar
Sure thing, the fact that there is a dashboard that outlines exactly how you would be affected is no data at all.
Avatar
Avatar
groot
Sure thing, the fact that there is a dashboard that outlines exactly how you would be affected is no data at all.
Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 04/10/2022 2:05 PM
I also used it to figure out where to put my next two deployments. nice job on that.
Avatar
It has been a worthwhile contribution so far as it showed many people not to fear the limit 🙂
❤️ 1
Avatar
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 04/10/2022 2:05 PM
@groot is there something on the etl to show who voted on HIP-58? Like in how many wallets or how many validators/normal wallets? (edited)
Avatar
Avatar
groot
It has been a worthwhile contribution so far as it showed many people not to fear the limit 🙂
DigitalHuevos🥚 04/10/2022 2:06 PM
Can you post a link Groot?
Avatar
Avatar
DigitalHuevos🥚
Can you post a link Groot?
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 04/10/2022 2:06 PM
Avatar
Avatar
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪
@groot is there something on the etl to show who voted on HIP-58? Like in how many wallets or how many validators/normal wallets? (edited)
Not sure, there is for 39 so maybe that can be reworked a bit.
Avatar
Avatar
groot
Not sure, there is for 39 so maybe that can be reworked a bit.
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 04/10/2022 2:07 PM
Would be cool, thought you worked on that one, sorry 😅
Avatar
Avatar
*Big Pimpin* (Not Jack Sparrow)
Let me make it clear. HIP HASN'T been implemented yet. No real world results. I could speculate, that my moutain setups will loose 10-20% earnings due to this hip as I get many POC over 100km. Point is, like belzebut said, don't slap your customers "people" in the face that help expand and provide better coverage in the face. Not good for business. Word soreds fast AF in our connected age. Influencers can help make or kill a project.
You are a supplier not a customer. You get paid for providing a service = supplier.
Avatar
Avatar
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪
Would be cool, thought you worked on that one, sorry 😅
I’m not, but I can look at it tomorrow, I’ll get back to you on that.
❤️ 2
Avatar
Avatar
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪
Would be cool, thought you worked on that one, sorry 😅
👍 1
Avatar
Avatar
Deleted User
each user should have 1 vote
Even if this were the case, the vote is passing 7:1.
💯 3
Avatar
Avatar
waveform
You are a supplier not a customer. You get paid for providing a service = supplier.
*Big Pimpin* (Not Jack Sparrow) 04/10/2022 2:15 PM
Then don't market it as the peoples network. If I invest into the network, I am a customer and a supplier as you say. As I am not high up in food chain of Helium. The people really don't have a say when it comes to voting. It appears that way, but time has shown that not to be the case. I am sorry my opinion disents from the narrative here. It's a reality though
14:16
Gotta get ready for work. Hope everyone has a good day.
Avatar
Avatar
*Big Pimpin* (Not Jack Sparrow)
Then don't market it as the peoples network. If I invest into the network, I am a customer and a supplier as you say. As I am not high up in food chain of Helium. The people really don't have a say when it comes to voting. It appears that way, but time has shown that not to be the case. I am sorry my opinion disents from the narrative here. It's a reality though
But unfortunately it is not a reality though. You are not a customer of the Helium network; you are a node, a user, a provider of a service. You get paid for providing a service to sensors. You are currently, and only temporarily being given PoC rewards to align your interests to the network's purpose and to encourage you to build the network prior to there actually being demand for the service you will be providing. You were never ever promised any sort of profits. So this HIP is not punishing you by depriving you of any profits; that is, you were never promised any. Since it is decentralized project, we all get to decide how to run it. It was built by the people and it is governed by the people. Everyone is equal; some are just more equal than others. Since immoral fucks that cheat and game the system to their sole advantage have done what they are doing, we can't have the nice extras like rewarding PoC above 100km. It is their fault and only their fault we are having to do this. It is a direct result of them stealing tens, if not hundreds, of millions of dollars from us. Stop directing your disappointment at us, Helium, or anyone else other than the cheating assholes that have done this to us. I hope you have a nice day at work. (edited)
Avatar
from reading this discussion, I really feel that most people are in it only for the money and couldnt give a F less what happens to the network longterm
15:42
if the money printer so much as slows down, they give up
👍 1
Avatar
Avatar
KeithR
But unfortunately it is not a reality though. You are not a customer of the Helium network; you are a node, a user, a provider of a service. You get paid for providing a service to sensors. You are currently, and only temporarily being given PoC rewards to align your interests to the network's purpose and to encourage you to build the network prior to there actually being demand for the service you will be providing. You were never ever promised any sort of profits. So this HIP is not punishing you by depriving you of any profits; that is, you were never promised any. Since it is decentralized project, we all get to decide how to run it. It was built by the people and it is governed by the people. Everyone is equal; some are just more equal than others. Since immoral fucks that cheat and game the system to their sole advantage have done what they are doing, we can't have the nice extras like rewarding PoC above 100km. It is their fault and only their fault we are having to do this. It is a direct result of them stealing tens, if not hundreds, of millions of dollars from us. Stop directing your disappointment at us, Helium, or anyone else other than the cheating assholes that have done this to us. I hope you have a nice day at work. (edited)
So conventient to say people were not promised any profit, it absolves anyone of any responsability. But the network was built on top of the profits made. Sure, people were not promised any profits directly by Helium, but you know it's not that simple. Incentives have to be distributed proportionally to the coverage the people provide and that's where the network is messing it up lately. (edited)
Avatar
Avatar
BiggieJohn
from reading this discussion, I really feel that most people are in it only for the money and couldnt give a F less what happens to the network longterm
These 2 things are not mutually exclusive, quite the contrary (edited)
Avatar
Avatar
belzebut
So conventient to say people were not promised any profit, it absolves anyone of any responsability. But the network was built on top of the profits made. Sure, people were not promised any profits directly by Helium, but you know it's not that simple. Incentives have to be distributed proportionally to the coverage the people provide and that's where the network is messing it up lately. (edited)
the way many people act, it woudl seem they were guaranteed a regular consistent profit
Avatar
Avatar
belzebut
So conventient to say people were not promised any profit, it absolves anyone of any responsability. But the network was built on top of the profits made. Sure, people were not promised any profits directly by Helium, but you know it's not that simple. Incentives have to be distributed proportionally to the coverage the people provide and that's where the network is messing it up lately. (edited)
Incentives have to be distributed proportionally to the coverage for sensor traffic the people provide and this HIP is trying to improve the relationship of PoC to the needs of the network. --there I fixed it for you.
Avatar
Avatar
KeithR
Incentives have to be distributed proportionally to the coverage for sensor traffic the people provide and this HIP is trying to improve the relationship of PoC to the needs of the network. --there I fixed it for you.
Arguable. And if it does, does so only in a way that coincidentally affects the rewards for high earning legit setups. Like i said earlier, why not also go for poor setups that earn rewards on useless transactions with very poor signal that provide almost no useful coverage. Maybe it's just me but it looks like some uniformity is desired, that hotspots should earn similar despite the huge difference in utility they provide.
Avatar
i think there should be an additional penalty to onbaord a 97th hotspot in an already massively congested hex
Avatar
Avatar
belzebut
Arguable. And if it does, does so only in a way that coincidentally affects the rewards for high earning legit setups. Like i said earlier, why not also go for poor setups that earn rewards on useless transactions with very poor signal that provide almost no useful coverage. Maybe it's just me but it looks like some uniformity is desired, that hotspots should earn similar despite the huge difference in utility they provide.
I earn 5-7 times the network average on most of my hotspots and not a single HIP has been adverse to that. The only thing killing my earnings has been the march from 13,300 hotspots (it was 8,500 when I bought my first two) to 715,000 hotspots on network. (edited)
Avatar
Avatar
BiggieJohn
i think there should be an additional penalty to onbaord a 97th hotspot in an already massively congested hex
Please come up with an elegant way to do this. If the 97th one does a better job, do the first 96 get fewer rewards to encourage them to move out of town?
16:01
I will help edit your HIP if you need.
Avatar
just putting up a huge antenna on a tall tower isnt the solution to everything, if that were the case, we wouldnt need hexes smaller then R4
16:02
we could cover entire cities with 1-2 hotspots
Avatar
Other than the shadows of coverage caused by hills, trees, and buildings; but yes we need far fewer hotspots in the middle of cities. I am kind of amazed that the horrifically low transmit scales in some cities is not encouragement enough to move on. (edited)
Avatar
part of the rationale is that a single hotspot, in ideal conditions can only actually service about 2000 sensors
16:06
in a large city there could easily be taht many per block
Avatar
Maybe something similar to how planetwatch does it. Make a larger portion of the rewards go to the best performing hotspot in the hex, based off of something like number of transactions completed, provided that the network works fine and there are enough transactions in the given time that variance doesn't play a role.
Avatar
but a single farm covering multiple hexes might only need 100 sensors
Avatar
Maybe when the second hotspot is added to the same hex, the system allows them to overlap for one month. Then the one that is doing a better job via coverage, sensor traffic, and mapping confirmations gets all of the rewards. So you can still challenge for position #1 in the drum line, but there can only be one. [trying to put in as many movie references as I possibly can in one sentence]
Avatar
Without using any data traffic as that would be too easy to manipulate.
Avatar
Agreed. That is why I had sensor traffic as one of the factors.
Avatar
a single hotspot with 300km range still only handles 2000 sensors, if thats a large city area, thats no where near the density needed
Avatar
Manufacturers could stop making 915 mhz models for the US. Then the Pirate Radio DAO can help shuffle all of the existing hotspots around to cover the rest of the area that needs covering.
16:10
"We are no longer shipping any hotspots to Belgium and the USA."
Avatar
stop supplying the crap little antennas with hotspots
Avatar
StellarWingman 04/10/2022 5:17 PM
How does one actually vote on this. I have the mobile app installed, the notifications sends me to a website that lets me vote but just sends me back to the app.
Avatar
When i set up antena 6dbi and i have loss of 1.2 dbi, should i insetr antena is 6.dbi or 4.8 dbi
Avatar
Avatar
up
When i set up antena 6dbi and i have loss of 1.2 dbi, should i insetr antena is 6.dbi or 4.8 dbi
Are you sure you have a loss of 1.2? Either a very long cable or a not so good one. But you would probably want to put the 4.8 if that is really how much you are losing. But keep in mind that you aren't getting any special treatment as a result. It is better to be accurate though.
Avatar
30ft of LMR400 is 1.17db
19:01
plus connectors . . .
Avatar
Avatar
BiggieJohn
we could cover entire cities with 1-2 hotspots
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 04/10/2022 8:23 PM
A city the size of London could be well covered by lora by no more than 50 properly placed hotspots… just sayin
Avatar
Avatar
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions)
A city the size of London could be well covered by lora by no more than 50 properly placed hotspots… just sayin
covered yes, but at what service level ? each hotspot can only service about 2000 sensors
20:38
and thats in perfect ideal conditions, like a flat open ranch, in a city you need far more for the same coverage
Avatar
Avatar
BiggieJohn
and thats in perfect ideal conditions, like a flat open ranch, in a city you need far more for the same coverage
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 04/10/2022 9:20 PM
already companies providing full lora coverage in the eu… that’s where I’m getting those metrics from….
Avatar
Avatar
BiggieJohn
covered yes, but at what service level ? each hotspot can only service about 2000 sensors
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 04/10/2022 11:55 PM
Curious where you learnt that figure?
23:56
When I was researching lora, as they don't check in often in the real world 1 hotspot could handle more
00:02
👆 1
Avatar
Avatar
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
Curious where you learnt that figure?
feuerkralle2011 04/11/2022 12:30 AM
It's a figure thrown around by some manufacturers but they mean simultaneous devices. If you spread out the activity you can support more
👍 1
Avatar
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 04/11/2022 12:32 AM
It was an honest question, it wasn't berating or anything I just wondered if they saw a better study :)
👍 1
Avatar
Avatar
KeithR
Are you sure you have a loss of 1.2? Either a very long cable or a not so good one. But you would probably want to put the 4.8 if that is really how much you are losing. But keep in mind that you aren't getting any special treatment as a result. It is better to be accurate though.
10 meter long lmr 400
Avatar
Avatar
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions)
already companies providing full lora coverage in the eu… that’s where I’m getting those metrics from….
VelocityJohn 04/11/2022 4:37 AM
Some you can also become a provider for and potentially run alongside Helium.
Avatar
Avatar
feuerkralle2011
It's a figure thrown around by some manufacturers but they mean simultaneous devices. If you spread out the activity you can support more
thats where I got it from, of course you can spread out more, but that depends a lot on the sensor, temperature probably needs to be closer to 1 hour so 24 a day, a door sensor at a business could be hundrerds, but hopefully a leak detector almost never sends a message otehr then the heartbeat messages (edited)
👍 1
Avatar
Deleted User 04/11/2022 8:13 AM
So there is no hard limit on how many devices a GTW can support. It is all about how many LoRa(WAN) packets a gateway can actually process in a 24 hour period. The below XLS capture gives you some numbers for both unconfirmed and confirmed (with ACK bit set in subsequent downlink) from a rudimentary LoRaWAN gateway capacity calculator. A bunch of assumptions were made: The network load is set to 0.18. This means that this gateway only sees traffic during a total of 18% of a 24 hour period. Only 125Khz channels were used for Uplinks. We also assume that the traffic is evenly spread across the 4 UL spreading factors. LoRaWAN network servers have a Automatic Data Rate function (ADR) where they (at least for non stationary devices) can set the SF and TX UL power level of the device so that devices closest to a GTW only use SF7 (and therefore save battery power because SF7 gives you the shortest time on air). Devices the furtest away will have to use the highest SF. By spreading the traffic a GTW sees across the 4 spreading factors evenly, optimizes the gateway's throughput because the spreading factors are orthogonal to each other. In RF terms this means that incoming LoRa packets with differerent SFs appear as noise to each other, so they cannot cause collisions (like when you have 2 packets arriving at the gateway receiver at the same time with the same SF, then both packets are lost if their power levels are within 6dB of each other). Each gateway has a DSP chip that processes 125Khz channels worth of spectrum continuously (8 x 200khz, so about 1.6Mhz since they are rastered on 200Khz spacing). Once a packet with a specific SF has been identified it will be sent to a demodulator to be processed (assuming there is a free demodulator (there are up to 16 demodulators).
👍 1
08:13
Avatar
Horrible hip 58 penalizing people who put hotspot in remote areas to provide helium coverage with miners which sometimes reach far away (more than 100km) witnessing
08:46
Those hotspot very useful to provide coverage in remote areas are penalized. This is not only against helium coverage perspective but also change of rules on the run is a not honest move.
👎 1
Avatar
Avatar
Stefz
Those hotspot very useful to provide coverage in remote areas are penalized. This is not only against helium coverage perspective but also change of rules on the run is a not honest move.
You beating a drum that we have already heard. 1. Been mentioned many times above and in the the github that useful sensor data is under 100KM. 2. Change of the rules? Do you know what HIP stands for and what it does? (edited)
Avatar
Well the drum was not said by me so I express my concerns. And i m aware of many people having the same. Do not consider right to penalize those kind of installations. To your question 2, yes i do totally
Avatar
Avatar
Stefz
Horrible hip 58 penalizing people who put hotspot in remote areas to provide helium coverage with miners which sometimes reach far away (more than 100km) witnessing
This only limits PoC rewards fwiw, the devices "if any" that has the capability to broadcast 100km to that hotspot will still be able too. Todays PoC doesn't align very well with the needed coverage that an end user device needs or even will be able to utilize. PoC is a proxy (a very loose one today) of true LoRa device coverage.
💯 1
Avatar
Much better would have been to establish those simple limitations at the begin let s say when helium was not spreaded already.. as said many remote areas installations will be penalized and I consider it not fair because they do a great and useful job to provide coverage in remote areas (just imagine peak of hills, or television poles etc.etc. just to mention few examples)
Avatar
Avatar
Stefz
Much better would have been to establish those simple limitations at the begin let s say when helium was not spreaded already.. as said many remote areas installations will be penalized and I consider it not fair because they do a great and useful job to provide coverage in remote areas (just imagine peak of hills, or television poles etc.etc. just to mention few examples)
Deleted User 04/11/2022 8:54 AM
agree but groot told it wont affect us big 🙂
08:54
let's see and hope he can shut us the mouth
08:55
but we all know gaming will not be solved with this and there comes something new. cat & mouse 🙂
Avatar
It was originally implemented in PoCv11 and actually there was a 32km limit before that during multi-hop PoC. With the age of the network, the capabilities of the network has grown and expanded. The evolution of this has been 32km -> 50km (rolled back due to tower setups) -> 100km. With device data specifically GPS being private it's difficult to gauge true coverage of said hotspots in regards to devices. But, devices are easily spoofed so that data can't hardly be trusted anyways especially if rewards were tied to device use like that. (edited)
Avatar
Deleted User 04/11/2022 8:57 AM
32KM limit even more worser and crazy
08:58
i think a 200 KM was better and more fair ... but who i am ?
Avatar
Sure and I can say 300km is better and more fair too
Avatar
Deleted User 04/11/2022 8:59 AM
i won't reach germany
08:59
but i easy can reach netherlands from my towers ....
Avatar
200km would be a good compromise
💯 1
👎 4
09:01
I installed for several clients remote miners in off-grid setup to let them provide.coverage in remote areas. Sometimes they hear 180-190km witness far away... Now they won't anymore...what to say to them? They did nothing wrong at all
09:02
Is that fair? It s not let s be honest
09:02
@Anthonyra my friend no normal hotspot reach more than 180-190km as far as I know...so 300 km would be scam😉
Avatar
Personally I think that witnesses should be limited to the parent res8 of the beaconing hotspot. The rewards are then based on the performance of that res8 to witness all the beacons over the course of an epoch. If there was 10 hotspots and 10 beacons (1 of each) and the average coverage was 50% then that area would get 50% rewards distributed to all hotspots beaconed/witnessed. Towers are sweet (they reach really really far) however, are they actually necessary for this network?
Avatar
All those installations mentioned before.on top of hills providing remote.coverage will be highly penalized. Sad but true and not fair...they did a great job to provide coverage in remote areas and now getting penalized...it s bad
Avatar
Avatar
Stefz
@Anthonyra my friend no normal hotspot reach more than 180-190km as far as I know...so 300 km would be scam😉
That can be true for today until someone installs something in a satellite or something crazy because sweet sweet HNT /s
Avatar
Deleted User 04/11/2022 9:04 AM
i will explain a follow situation : I have some tower in a almost empty area ... but due the hight it gives great coverage ... also don't forget helium encourgaged us to build crazy top setups
09:04
this game looking more and more to a communism part where all need earn / have the same
👎 2
Avatar
@Anthonyra my friend I m speaking about reality of nowadays nothing futuristic. The problem is real for several miner owners who invested a lot and not just put a miner at.home switch on and that s it
👎 1
Avatar
Deleted User 04/11/2022 9:04 AM
sattelite c'mon ..
09:05
you think all have acces to that 😄
Avatar
@Deleted User totally correct my friend
Avatar
Deleted User 04/11/2022 9:05 AM
you watch to many tv shows i think or SF
09:05
maybe the nephew of mush can send one to space but 99.9 % not
Avatar
But tomorrow someone could, like I said we started at 32km and it was eventually grown out, then 50km and now 100km.
Avatar
And now we created this almost great setup, remote areas, no intereferecnes...far witness and bam!!! We are kicked in the a.. that s bad!
facepalm 1
Avatar
Deleted User 04/11/2022 9:05 AM
imo there is a lack of respect for those who build great setups on rented mostly expensive premium locations ....
Avatar
@Deleted User exactly
09:06
This is the point
Avatar
I'd love to see the data transfers of those setups, because even if we continue to reward them greatly for PoC ... there's an age to PoC rewards
Avatar
Hip 58 didn take into account this minority.of great setups.with all the expertise needed
Avatar
Deleted User 04/11/2022 9:06 AM
@Stefz don't be to sceptical or give to much critics as you will get muted ! i'm almost dailly muted here ..
🙄 1
09:06
it's simple
Avatar
5G alone will probably siphon >33% of all PoC rewards when it launches (edited)
Avatar
Deleted User 04/11/2022 9:07 AM
you all shout building builiding network ...
09:07
so means first years it's rewared indeed for poc etc
Avatar
@Deleted User whatever mate. I own more than 25 hotspot miners and I do install them for a living. If they wanna mute me they can. I will find my way don't worry 😉
Avatar
Deleted User 04/11/2022 9:07 AM
come tell me in full deployed WORLD CITIES how much data there is ? exclude the mapper guys ;
Avatar
I think those remote setups are also going to be grown out fwiw... if not today probably tomorrow and not because of HIP 58
Avatar
Avatar
Stefz
@Deleted User whatever mate. I own more than 25 hotspot miners and I do install them for a living. If they wanna mute me they can. I will find my way don't worry 😉
Deleted User 04/11/2022 9:08 AM
same situation bro ... but they hate belgians 😄
09:08
they like to see a hotspot beside tv desk or in sleeping room with standard stock antenna i guess
facepalm 1
Avatar
@Deleted User check my image in my profile...remote.off grid setup soon to be penalized! It s bad
Avatar
Deleted User 04/11/2022 9:09 AM
also i don't get HNT for data now
Avatar
Check the ETL if your setups are affected, @Deleted User sure aren't, he's just mad because his hotspots do nothing due to a completely unrelated p2p issue.
💯 1
Avatar
Deleted User 04/11/2022 9:09 AM
altough there is data :p
Avatar
Welp, if HIP 58 is what kills your setups I'm afraid for the future... but take it as it is... and good luck 🍻
Avatar
Avatar
groot
Check the ETL if your setups are affected, @Deleted User sure aren't, he's just mad because his hotspots do nothing due to a completely unrelated p2p issue.
Deleted User 04/11/2022 9:09 AM
lol 🙂 i'm scared ... i admit 🙂
Avatar
@Anthonyra those setups are the one providing great coverage. Those put in remote zones on the top of hills or on TV poles are the one doing a great work of coverage. Helium should support.them.not.kicking them... It s against what was suggested until now.. put it high, find a relative good zone and such...
Avatar
Deleted User 04/11/2022 9:09 AM
but you told me no reason for so we'll see ...
09:10
i hope you really shut me the mouth and i will be the first to admit i was wrong and panic for nothing @groot
Avatar
@Anthonyra I used the word penalized. Not kill. And this is unfair and agains helium itself penalizing those installations
Avatar
Avatar
Deleted User
i hope you really shut me the mouth and i will be the first to admit i was wrong and panic for nothing @groot
It would be nice if you'd keep a more open mind in your communication too.
✅ 2
Avatar
Deleted User 04/11/2022 9:11 AM
i will give it a try 🙂 you don't know a good communication manager for me :p
Avatar
They provide great coverage for remote areas. Like mobile phone cells on top of hills.
09:11
Do not penalize them...😉
Avatar
Just saying when 5G lands 33% of PoC will instantly be diverted to data transfer, if they enable PoC that needs to come from somewhere too. We also onboard 100k hotspots a month and there's a halvening in 2023..
Avatar
Deleted User 04/11/2022 9:12 AM
that onboarding is also a joke imo it will soon be everywherte oversaturated in this case
09:12
don't forget to run a world city like London you only need have a +- 50 hotspots
Avatar
@Anthonyra we all hope 5g will land soon in Europe but until that moment we can t penalize such great setup installs it s really unfair
Avatar
Deleted User 04/11/2022 9:12 AM
5G we have already in Belgium
09:12
i used it for almost a year on my phone ...
Avatar
Sure and then an equilibrium will be reached... all I'm saying is use the tool from groot and check your setup. If you see < 10% "penalization" I think you should be concerned more about other things that the future of Helium has in store.
Avatar
Deleted User 04/11/2022 9:13 AM
it's a bunch of all ....
09:14
also the P2P like groot mentioned, i admit 🙂
09:14
but this we don't discuss here or i get muted again ....
kek 1
09:14
where is professor barabas and his time machine if you need him 😄
Avatar
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸 04/11/2022 9:30 AM
I fail to see the advantage of stifling expansion on a network that needs expansion to grow. There are still many areas between cities and heavily populated areas the network needs to grow so IoT devices can take advantage along highways between these areas. Sometimes to get these areas started, hotspots will need to reach more than 60 miles. Banning the Deep network devices will do more to stop cheaters than restricting ability to grow.
Avatar
Avatar
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸
I fail to see the advantage of stifling expansion on a network that needs expansion to grow. There are still many areas between cities and heavily populated areas the network needs to grow so IoT devices can take advantage along highways between these areas. Sometimes to get these areas started, hotspots will need to reach more than 60 miles. Banning the Deep network devices will do more to stop cheaters than restricting ability to grow.
I fail to see the advantage of having no hotspots in-between yourself and that 100km radius. That is literally the diameter of 2x resolution 4 hexes.
Avatar
Avatar
Stefz
@Anthonyra those setups are the one providing great coverage. Those put in remote zones on the top of hills or on TV poles are the one doing a great work of coverage. Helium should support.them.not.kicking them... It s against what was suggested until now.. put it high, find a relative good zone and such...
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/11/2022 9:53 AM
A setup that is made to just suck up poc rewards is not a "great setup".
Avatar
Avatar
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸
I fail to see the advantage of stifling expansion on a network that needs expansion to grow. There are still many areas between cities and heavily populated areas the network needs to grow so IoT devices can take advantage along highways between these areas. Sometimes to get these areas started, hotspots will need to reach more than 60 miles. Banning the Deep network devices will do more to stop cheaters than restricting ability to grow.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/11/2022 9:55 AM
Lone wolf installs are never good. Install more hotspots in the area.
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Lone wolf installs are never good. Install more hotspots in the area.
Yes, thank you for your donation for more hotspots.
🙄 1
Avatar
Avatar
Milan
Yes, thank you for your donation for more hotspots.
There are plenty of patrons for such deals. You just need to ask. And have an argument as to why your locations are good from a future data usage perspective.
Avatar
@ElonTusk | 5Gchipped there are several don't worry I know how helium works... But thanks for the tip😉
10:43
@Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸 totally agree
10:45
I just wanted to point out as i already did that changing this rule of the 100km can affect many remote areas setups... Which provide coverage in remote areas.. of course those setups due to their location, usually on top of the hills or on top of TV poles can reach far higher distances than average setup like the one I have in my house averaging 20-40km witnessing
10:46
I consider unfair to all those people who have and created such setups to be penalized and that should not happen. It s much more important to have strict rules to avoid gaming and quickly ban those miners than preventing outstanding setups to reach far distances 😉
Avatar
Avatar
Stefz
@ElonTusk | 5Gchipped there are several don't worry I know how helium works... But thanks for the tip😉
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/11/2022 10:50 AM
Yet you keep insisting that these PoC sponges are "great setups".
Avatar
Avatar
Stefz
I consider unfair to all those people who have and created such setups to be penalized and that should not happen. It s much more important to have strict rules to avoid gaming and quickly ban those miners than preventing outstanding setups to reach far distances 😉
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/11/2022 10:52 AM
There is no use for "far reaching" hotspots past the point of the range of sensors
Avatar
Avatar
Stefz
@ElonTusk | 5Gchipped there are several don't worry I know how helium works... But thanks for the tip😉
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 04/11/2022 10:57 AM
Show me your ETL I have multiple “great” setups and only getting my beacons sent out nerfed by about 10%
👍 3
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Yet you keep insisting that these PoC sponges are "great setups".
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 04/11/2022 10:58 AM
Just cause my antenna is square doesn’t make it a sponge!
😄 1
🔳 1
Avatar
Avatar
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions)
Just cause my antenna is square doesn’t make it a sponge!
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/11/2022 10:59 AM
11:02
(the wrong "here" is bugging the hell out of me. lol )
Avatar
Avatar
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions)
Show me your ETL I have multiple “great” setups and only getting my beacons sent out nerfed by about 10%
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 04/11/2022 11:03 AM
Did Jeff took the picture? Hope he is doing okay
Avatar
Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 04/11/2022 11:20 AM
If this came down to "good setups" those people building out mini networks in cities/provinces/towns/etc I think would be the "best" as they're aligned with "real world IoT use cases" that is far above a lone wolf or single tower deployment
💯 1
Avatar
Guys read again my messages rather than misunderstanding my words. And think if is a good thing to penalize such setups and changing the rules on the run. This is all I say
Avatar
Avatar
Stefz
Guys read again my messages rather than misunderstanding my words. And think if is a good thing to penalize such setups and changing the rules on the run. This is all I say
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸 04/11/2022 11:30 AM
Avatar
Avatar
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸
Click to see attachment 🖼️
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸 04/11/2022 11:32 AM
I would like to expand in this area. Most here think it is a better plan to break the bank and install multiple HS to this area, so they can read off each other, instead of reading off the already established areas around this area.
Avatar
Establishing a miner (well several miners) at 30-40km from a city or several cities is exactly what was done. The performance are really good and steady. There is no reason which should prevent those installs to witness farer than 100km due to their location they do it often and several times a day... (edited)
11:37
With the limitation of the 100km the range to the cities won't be affected, the farer witnessing yes. This I consider absolutely unnecessary and unfair. There will be a penalization and a change of the rules game on the run is never a good move
11:41
However and unfortunately those words won't change the situation if the hip58 will be applied in future
Avatar
Avatar
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪
Did Jeff took the picture? Hope he is doing okay
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 04/11/2022 11:47 AM
Jeff is actually the dude tht owns the property 🤣 he’s doing great… just saw him the other day last time I went up the mountain I brought him some milk and eggs 🥚
❤️ 2
😆 1
Avatar
Avatar
Stefz
With the limitation of the 100km the range to the cities won't be affected, the farer witnessing yes. This I consider absolutely unnecessary and unfair. There will be a penalization and a change of the rules game on the run is never a good move
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/11/2022 11:59 AM
Every HIP is a change of the rules. Kind ofthe whole point of HIPs...
Avatar
@ElonTusk | 5Gchipped I know but this hip 58 is kinda of reason of complain from many people who invested in setups in high locations and not densed area which could benefit of those farer witnessing. Honestly hope it won't pass (probably it will) or many will complain much more than the 0.9% which was assigned to validators. It could account for a less -20% or more for those kind of setups (edited)
Avatar
Avatar
Stefz
@ElonTusk | 5Gchipped I know but this hip 58 is kinda of reason of complain from many people who invested in setups in high locations and not densed area which could benefit of those farer witnessing. Honestly hope it won't pass (probably it will) or many will complain much more than the 0.9% which was assigned to validators. It could account for a less -20% or more for those kind of setups (edited)
It could, but it probably won't from what I've heard from the people actually using the ETL to verify.
Avatar
I honestly hope it won't or that could be a good hit for helium. I always loved and love this project but we all need to play and stick with simple rules...too many changes can lead to confusion and disappointment especially when people's earnings are hit...my 2cents words
Avatar
Avatar
Stefz
I honestly hope it won't or that could be a good hit for helium. I always loved and love this project but we all need to play and stick with simple rules...too many changes can lead to confusion and disappointment especially when people's earnings are hit...my 2cents words
It won't be a hit on helium. Good setups will not be harmed at all from this HIP. If your setup is harmed by this HIP, then you do not have a good set up.
💯 1
12:20
While it is appreciated that your setup in the middle of nowhere will be an onramp for sensors also in the middle of nowhere, it is still not a good location.
👍 1
Avatar
@KeithR i do not have a single setup my friend. I do have 22 setups...with all different characteristics. The possibility of hitting farer than 100km witnessing is something several people won't like
12:21
As.per.my.previous message my setups are generally near big cities but on top of hills. Those can obviously reach farer witnessing...
Avatar
Avatar
Stefz
@ElonTusk | 5Gchipped I know but this hip 58 is kinda of reason of complain from many people who invested in setups in high locations and not densed area which could benefit of those farer witnessing. Honestly hope it won't pass (probably it will) or many will complain much more than the 0.9% which was assigned to validators. It could account for a less -20% or more for those kind of setups (edited)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/11/2022 12:21 PM
They setup for themselves, not for the network.
Avatar
I have 35 setups in two countries and not a single one of them will be affected by this HIP. Sure yeah, I have some exciting witnesses from 100 to 200 km; they are very exciting. But they serve zero usefulness to the network.
💯 3
Avatar
Still no hard data from ETL huh? I'll draw my conclusions from the continuous evasion on that.
👆 3
Avatar
@KeithR are you happy to have those kinda.of witnessing unavailable from now on? Is it accounting only for the 0.001%? If the answer of.both.questions is yes than we are in different situation
Avatar
My personal hotspot is 120' up in my tree and I live on a plateau; so height is 720' above. It covers over 8000 square kilometers. There is one hotspot I get that is over 100km. Exciting, but useless. (edited)
Avatar
Avatar
Stefz
@KeithR i do not have a single setup my friend. I do have 22 setups...with all different characteristics. The possibility of hitting farer than 100km witnessing is something several people won't like
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/11/2022 12:23 PM
Funny... last time it was "more than 25 setups". Which is it?
Avatar
@groot there is no need to provide them. I m pointing out few aspects which should lead to some thinking
Avatar
You claim that you are affected because you have an amazing setup but continuously evade the question how affected. I pointed out some aspects, visualized them too, and yet you do no thinking on those.
Avatar
Deleted User 04/11/2022 12:25 PM
Witness distance is nothing more than a dick measuring contest, we’re better than that
Avatar
I wrote I own 25 miners....but your speculation stay on your side feel free to believe whatever makes u feel more.comfortable...wont take any personal attack😉
Avatar
Avatar
Deleted User
Witness distance is nothing more than a dick measuring contest, we’re better than that
It is a little more than that. Mostly yes though. It is fun to witness so far away. The fact that the signal is going over the horizon, curving over the earth more than a mile past the horizon. Very exciting. (edited)
Avatar
@groot first of all I explained that I will be partially affected and only for a small part as u can read in my previous message my main witnessing are in the range 30-40km and few of them above 100km.... Secondary and this is the main point: those rules should not be changed on the run. I m pointing this out. I can't repeat myself more
👎 1
Avatar
Avatar
KeithR
It is a little more than that. Mostly yes though. It is fun to witness so far away. The fact that the signal is going over the horizon, curving over the earth more than a mile past the horizon. Very exciting. (edited)
Deleted User 04/11/2022 12:27 PM
I’ve pretty much assumed any witnesses of mine over 50km were dodgy anyway 😆
Avatar
Your opinion is valid but not shared among the group according to the preliminary results.
Avatar
@groot I think I explained myself several times with all my messages giving clear examples...I. Can't do more.tbh
Avatar
Avatar
Deleted User
Witness distance is nothing more than a dick measuring contest, we’re better than that
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/11/2022 12:28 PM
Hey! Those are fun! 😆
😆 1
Avatar
Avatar
Stefz
@groot I think I explained myself several times with all my messages giving clear examples...I. Can't do more.tbh
Does not change my statement though.
Avatar
Avatar
Stefz
@groot first of all I explained that I will be partially affected and only for a small part as u can read in my previous message my main witnessing are in the range 30-40km and few of them above 100km.... Secondary and this is the main point: those rules should not be changed on the run. I m pointing this out. I can't repeat myself more
So wait...the HIP won't affect you, it will cause the cheating fucks that are stealing our tokens to steal less of them, and still you complain about the HIP?
Avatar
@groot more than explaining the situation what should be done?
Avatar
Not sure why you feel the need to tag me in every response, I am reading this you know. You're not obliged to do anything, just as others are not obliged to agree with you no matter how many times you repeat your opinion (edited)
Avatar
@KeithR hey I think u are.not reading the messages I wrote correctly. I m the first hating gaming and would love to enforce stricter rules. At same time there are many people witnessing farer than 100km which should not be penalized....
12:31
@groot I tag you to answer you that s how it works. You don't need to agree. This channel.is to share vision and raise concerns about hip58. It s not only my personal view. It s several people s view. Take it or leave it
Avatar
Look around, it's not how it works.
Avatar
Avatar
Stefz
@KeithR hey I think u are.not reading the messages I wrote correctly. I m the first hating gaming and would love to enforce stricter rules. At same time there are many people witnessing farer than 100km which should not be penalized....
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/11/2022 12:31 PM
Witnessing farther than 100km has no value to the network. Only actions that add value to the network are rewarded.
Avatar
@ElonTusk | 5Gchipped it s crystal clear to me but still this witnessing means rewards and not sure if removing those kind of rewards is a good move
Avatar
Avatar
Stefz
@groot first of all I explained that I will be partially affected and only for a small part as u can read in my previous message my main witnessing are in the range 30-40km and few of them above 100km.... Secondary and this is the main point: those rules should not be changed on the run. I m pointing this out. I can't repeat myself more
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/11/2022 12:33 PM
Secondary and this is the main point: those rules should not be changed on the run
So... you disagree with having HIPs at all?
Avatar
Hips are a good thing. Hip 58 for me is not a good hip for.reasons explained
Avatar
So the rules should change on the fly, but only when they're convenient for you?😂
Avatar
Avatar
Stefz
@ElonTusk | 5Gchipped it s crystal clear to me but still this witnessing means rewards and not sure if removing those kind of rewards is a good move
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/11/2022 12:34 PM
Those milking the POC rewards are just taking advantage of a flawed system. No good reason to let that continue.
👆 1
Avatar
Avatar
Stefz
Hips are a good thing. Hip 58 for me is not a good hip for.reasons explained
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/11/2022 12:34 PM
No... you keep saying that "changing the rules" is bad. That's a HIP
Avatar
Avatar
Stefz
@KeithR hey I think u are.not reading the messages I wrote correctly. I m the first hating gaming and would love to enforce stricter rules. At same time there are many people witnessing farer than 100km which should not be penalized....
The non-cheating hotspots that are witnessing greater than 100 km are not being punished. They are just no longer going to receive rewards for PoC that is of no use to the network's purpose. Arguably they shouldn't have received them before and they definitely should not have installed their hotspot to benefit from such witnesses. There was never a part of the network's purpose where "witness from really far away" was a desired goal.
💯 2
Avatar
Those rules are not convenient for many great setups. And to be honest if the level of the discussion should be this kind of sentences I abstain myself
Avatar
Avatar
Stefz
Those rules are not convenient for many great setups. And to be honest if the level of the discussion should be this kind of sentences I abstain myself
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/11/2022 12:35 PM
Data talks, BS walks... show your data.
Avatar
@ElonTusk | 5Gchipped I m talking about hip 58 can't be more clear than this
Avatar
I'm just repeating what you said though, 'rules should not change on the run' and 'hips are great but hip58 is bad'
👆 1
Avatar
Avatar
Stefz
@ElonTusk | 5Gchipped I m talking about hip 58 can't be more clear than this
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/11/2022 12:36 PM
You can't cherry pick.
Avatar
Avatar
Stefz
@ElonTusk | 5Gchipped I m talking about hip 58 can't be more clear than this
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/11/2022 12:37 PM
Oh you've been very clear: You're in it just for yourself, not for the network. Sorry, but that's not how this works.
Avatar
DigitalHuevos🥚 04/11/2022 12:37 PM
Every company in the world has to change things on the fly. To adapt to the current issues and problems. This isn't new at all.
💯 1
Avatar
Avatar
Stefz
Those rules are not convenient for many great setups. And to be honest if the level of the discussion should be this kind of sentences I abstain myself
Let me fix that for you... "These rules are not convenient for some setups." If this HIP is affecting your hotspot, it is not a great setup. It is not a good setup either.
👆 1
Avatar
Ok guys I made myself clear. I pointed out several things. My words won't change the adoption of hip 58. Consider them or do with them whatever you prefer.
12:37
@KeithR I never said that but you
12:38
I find not a constructive and open discussion here. And it s disappointing. Wish you all good night!
Avatar
Avatar
Stefz
I find not a constructive and open discussion here. And it s disappointing. Wish you all good night!
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/11/2022 12:39 PM
"not constructive" apparently means we don't agree with him. 🙄
☝️ 1
Avatar
Avatar
Stefz
I find not a constructive and open discussion here. And it s disappointing. Wish you all good night!
Actually, I would love to hear a good reason to set the max distance above 50 km (data received can be at unlimited distance). I am supportive of 100 km but truthfully, since sensors generally only reach 50 km why go further?
12:41
Even at 50 km, it is highly unlikely that your hotspot will be the one that hears the sensor first.
12:41
Unless you are in the middle of nowhere and so too is the sensor. (edited)
Avatar
Avatar
KeithR
Actually, I would love to hear a good reason to set the max distance above 50 km (data received can be at unlimited distance). I am supportive of 100 km but truthfully, since sensors generally only reach 50 km why go further?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/11/2022 12:42 PM
They tried 50km and the backlash was pretty large. 🙂
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
They tried 50km and the backlash was pretty large. 🙂
Of course. I am not fighting 100 km as the max. But the network's purpose only needs 50 km.
Avatar
Avatar
KeithR
Of course. I am not fighting 100 km as the max. But the network's purpose only needs 50 km.
feuerkralle2011 04/11/2022 12:44 PM
It's a good middle ground to get new people in remote areas to start adding hotspots
👆 1
Avatar
@ElonTusk | 5Gchipped not at all. Not constructive means something else and I ve already explained that the attitude in this chat is not open and appropriate to develop a honest and open discussion. If the only thing you understand is "not constructive means we don't agree with him" than I can't help
Avatar
th3j0ker🛰♾ 04/11/2022 12:46 PM
Based on what is the number 50km?
12:46
Someone like it or there is a technical reason?
Avatar
Avatar
Stefz
@ElonTusk | 5Gchipped not at all. Not constructive means something else and I ve already explained that the attitude in this chat is not open and appropriate to develop a honest and open discussion. If the only thing you understand is "not constructive means we don't agree with him" than I can't help
feuerkralle2011 04/11/2022 12:47 PM
The main issue is that you dont come up with any constructive feedback but: This is bad because it penalises the "great" setups
💯 1
Avatar
@KeithR to be clear from day one it was said that sensors can reach up to 10miles. I would be totally fine with that if this rule would start and stay always the same...consistency is key for the success
Avatar
feuerkralle2011 04/11/2022 12:47 PM
which isn't very constructive
Avatar
Family.time. gotta go! Have a good one
Avatar
Avatar
Stefz
@ElonTusk | 5Gchipped not at all. Not constructive means something else and I ve already explained that the attitude in this chat is not open and appropriate to develop a honest and open discussion. If the only thing you understand is "not constructive means we don't agree with him" than I can't help
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/11/2022 12:48 PM
Us telling you the facts is just that. The facts. Just because you disagree with no data doesn't mean it's not "open".
Avatar
Avatar
Stefz
@KeithR to be clear from day one it was said that sensors can reach up to 10miles. I would be totally fine with that if this rule would start and stay always the same...consistency is key for the success
Consistency is not the key to success. The economic incentive model works best when the rewards are perfectly aligned with the intended purpose of the network. This HIP will better align the rewards and curtail the profits from the cheating fucks stealing tokens from us. (edited)
👍 1
Avatar
Avatar
th3j0ker🛰♾
Someone like it or there is a technical reason?
th3j0ker🛰♾ 04/11/2022 12:49 PM
Any reply ? Or simply no one knows and because does not affect your earning... Doesn't matter
Avatar
Avatar
th3j0ker🛰♾
Any reply ? Or simply no one knows and because does not affect your earning... Doesn't matter
DigitalHuevos🥚 04/11/2022 12:49 PM
Avatar
th3j0ker🛰♾ 04/11/2022 12:50 PM
Ok all about sensors, thanks for replying
👍 2
Avatar
Avatar
th3j0ker🛰♾
Based on what is the number 50km?
50 km is the general max distance a sensor will send its signal due to its low power longe range design. Yes, you can up the power and go further, but the idea is to allow for tiny devices with tiny antennas and tiny power sources.
Avatar
th3j0ker🛰♾ 04/11/2022 12:51 PM
Let me say that push the adoption of helium sensors does not imply that an hotspot far 60 or 70 or 110km shouldn't get the data (edited)
Avatar
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸 04/11/2022 12:51 PM
Everyone needs to understand what they are voting for. This is currently written at 100 km. It was originally negotiated at 50 km. They were afraid that such a short distance would not get passed. So they increase it to 100 km. However, it is adjustable according to how they "govern" it.
👍 2
Avatar
Avatar
th3j0ker🛰♾
Let me say that push the adoption of helium sensors does not imply that an hotspot far 60 or 70 or 110km shouldn't get the data (edited)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/11/2022 12:52 PM
This hip does not affect rx range from sensors. Only PoC.
☝️ 1
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
This hip does not affect rx range from sensors. Only PoC.
Exactly.
👍 2
Avatar
th3j0ker🛰♾ 04/11/2022 12:52 PM
Indeed...
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
This hip does not affect rx range from sensors. Only PoC.
th3j0ker🛰♾ 04/11/2022 12:53 PM
Why an hotspot that far should get reward for data if the poc does not "see" him from that distance?
12:53
Wtf
Avatar
And if you are upset about this HIP, direct your grievances to the cheating motherfuckers that are stealing tokens from the community. They are the reason we can't have overly generous PoC rewards.
Avatar
th3j0ker🛰♾ 04/11/2022 12:54 PM
Lower the reward
12:54
I'm ok with that (edited)
Avatar
@KeithR so.to punish those bad guys let s limit the possibility of.honest and clean setups which can go farer than 100kms? Smart move
Avatar
Avatar
th3j0ker🛰♾
Why an hotspot that far should get reward for data if the poc does not "see" him from that distance?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/11/2022 12:54 PM
Sorry, not sure I'm understanding what you are saying.
Avatar
Avatar
Stefz
@KeithR so.to punish those bad guys let s limit the possibility of.honest and clean setups which can go farer than 100kms? Smart move
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/11/2022 12:55 PM
You think it's that easy? Go ahead and write a HIP.
Avatar
th3j0ker🛰♾ 04/11/2022 12:55 PM
If the poc will not be considered valid over 100km why the data should?
12:55
The point is max distance for all
facepalm 1
😩 1
👎 1
12:55
Why only poc?
Avatar
Avatar
Stefz
@KeithR so.to punish those bad guys let s limit the possibility of.honest and clean setups which can go farer than 100kms? Smart move
Now you are just trying to use "honest" and "clean" to imply "great" or "good". Being >100km from a sensor is not useful in any sense.
Avatar
@ElonTusk | 5Gchipped easy...I didn't say it s easy. But it s not a good move.to put all the farer than 100km witnessing in a bowl.and suspect those are the bad guys...sorry guys!
Avatar
Avatar
th3j0ker🛰♾
The point is max distance for all
DigitalHuevos🥚 04/11/2022 12:56 PM
The point was never max distance.
👍 1
Avatar
Avatar
th3j0ker🛰♾
If the poc will not be considered valid over 100km why the data should?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/11/2022 12:56 PM
Because data is the point of the network, not POC rewards. The odds of some other hotspot picking up the data first is very large, but just in case not, the data still gets delievered if the only hotspot in ranges just happens to hear it at >100km.
Avatar
@KeithR so let s limit 10 miles. In all the miners.it s written a.maximum range of 10 miles let s be coherent
Avatar
Avatar
Stefz
@ElonTusk | 5Gchipped easy...I didn't say it s easy. But it s not a good move.to put all the farer than 100km witnessing in a bowl.and suspect those are the bad guys...sorry guys!
Have you actually read the HIP? The data is pretty convincing. The cheaters are using >100 km to maximize their ability to steal tokens.
💯 1
Avatar
Avatar
DigitalHuevos🥚
The point was never max distance.
th3j0ker🛰♾ 04/11/2022 12:57 PM
So I really don't get the use of the hip
12:57
I'm not for or against
Avatar
Avatar
Stefz
@ElonTusk | 5Gchipped easy...I didn't say it s easy. But it s not a good move.to put all the farer than 100km witnessing in a bowl.and suspect those are the bad guys...sorry guys!
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/11/2022 12:57 PM
The whole anti-cheater thing is just icing on the cake if you ask me. This hip was not written well.
👍 1
Avatar
Avatar
Stefz
@KeithR so let s limit 10 miles. In all the miners.it s written a.maximum range of 10 miles let s be coherent
feuerkralle2011 04/11/2022 12:58 PM
Your constructivness is absolutely fabulous. I applaud you
Avatar
@ElonTusk | 5Gchipped in this I agree with you!😉
🤝 1
Avatar
Avatar
Stefz
@KeithR so let s limit 10 miles. In all the miners.it s written a.maximum range of 10 miles let s be coherent
No it was written that the max range was 30-50 km. I would be quite happy with a PoC limit of 50km. But I very much understand why 100km was chosen. I am ok with it.
👍 1
Avatar
@feuerkralle2011 come on try to get the point...
Avatar
Avatar
Stefz
@feuerkralle2011 come on try to get the point...
feuerkralle2011 04/11/2022 12:58 PM
You dont deliver any data on your case... where should I get the point then?
Avatar
Avatar
th3j0ker🛰♾
So I really don't get the use of the hip
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/11/2022 12:58 PM
The HIP is to guide the building of the network so it's useful for the end goal: Sensor Data transmission.
Avatar
@KeithR sorry but need to disagree. If I remember good, correct me if I m wrong, in all typical.miners it s stated that range varies until 10miles...
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
The whole anti-cheater thing is just icing on the cake if you ask me. This hip was not written well.
I appreciate the stance but I get livid when I see how many tokens they are stealing from us. That, and I really only like the icing on cake. I am more of a brownie man.
Avatar
@feuerkralle2011 read all my messages I sent today thanks
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
The HIP is to guide the building of the network so it's useful for the end goal: Sensor Data transmission.
th3j0ker🛰♾ 04/11/2022 12:59 PM
My friend to obtain capillarity and promote sensor data, all the transmissions shall be limited to a certain distance
12:59
Not poc or data or whatever
12:59
Everything
Avatar
The purpose of the network is to onramp ALL sensor data.
Avatar
@KeithR do you think I like to be fuxxed? Nobody does...and now because of this also getting further penalized???
Avatar
Avatar
KeithR
I appreciate the stance but I get livid when I see how many tokens they are stealing from us. That, and I really only like the icing on cake. I am more of a brownie man.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/11/2022 1:00 PM
100% Pie 🤤 (brownies are awesone too!)
Avatar
Avatar
Stefz
@feuerkralle2011 read all my messages I sent today thanks
feuerkralle2011 04/11/2022 1:00 PM
I followed your messages today. No data at all
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
100% Pie 🤤 (brownies are awesone too!)
Mmmmmm. Apple pie. I will travel >100 km for a good apple pie.
💯 1
😆 2
Avatar
@feuerkralle2011 I didn't provide any data here if u are asking this
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
The whole anti-cheater thing is just icing on the cake if you ask me. This hip was not written well.
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸 04/11/2022 1:01 PM
Then say no until it is written better. We sound like Congress saying vote Yes and then read it later.
Avatar
What should be avoided.with this hip is to hit without a distinction this farer witnessing capability guys
13:02
@Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸 how can we contribute.to provide a better writing of the hip?
Avatar
Avatar
Stefz
@Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸 how can we contribute.to provide a better writing of the hip?
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸 04/11/2022 1:02 PM
Vote no. It can be resubmitted properly later
Avatar
Avatar
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸
Vote no. It can be resubmitted properly later
th3j0ker🛰♾ 04/11/2022 1:03 PM
I never saw a hip rejected 😅
Avatar
@Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸 this I did. But it will win yes. So my question is: how.can we improve the writing of.the hip58 before.vote.is.passing?
Avatar
Avatar
Stefz
@KeithR do you think I like to be fuxxed? Nobody does...and now because of this also getting further penalized???
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/11/2022 1:03 PM
You haven't provided any data on that...
Avatar
@ElonTusk | 5Gchipped do you doubt that I hate to be fuxxed? Lol
Avatar
Avatar
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸
Then say no until it is written better. We sound like Congress saying vote Yes and then read it later.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/11/2022 1:04 PM
The actions of the HIP are fine. It's just written poorly IMO
Avatar
@ElonTusk | 5Gchipped same.thought.here. it s.like.if.all.witnesses above 100km are criminals
Avatar
Avatar
Stefz
@ElonTusk | 5Gchipped do you doubt that I hate to be fuxxed? Lol
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/11/2022 1:04 PM
No data...
Avatar
@ElonTusk | 5Gchipped no data at all and? If I m speaking there s a reasons it s not because I have nothing better to do
facepalm 1
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
No data...
feuerkralle2011 04/11/2022 1:05 PM
I doubt you'll ever see data provided by him... multiple people ask him the whole day now
👍 1
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
The actions of the HIP are fine. It's just written poorly IMO
I assume you mean because it is written in the context of stopping cheating rather than the more grounding approach of aligning the PoC rewards to the purpose of the network?
💯 2
Avatar
Avatar
Stefz
@ElonTusk | 5Gchipped same.thought.here. it s.like.if.all.witnesses above 100km are criminals
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/11/2022 1:05 PM
No, that is not what it says. FFS...
Avatar
@feuerkralle2011 exactly.i won t provide I already said it
13:05
@KeithR exactly
Avatar
Avatar
Stefz
@feuerkralle2011 exactly.i won t provide I already said it
feuerkralle2011 04/11/2022 1:06 PM
Your words mean nothing if not backed by prove (edited)
Avatar
My words mean a lot. Trust me
😆 1
13:06
Your opinion stays with you
13:06
But this is again what I mean when I say the environment is not honest...
Avatar
Avatar
Stefz
But this is again what I mean when I say the environment is not honest...
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/11/2022 1:07 PM
You are making no sense.
Avatar
Avatar
Stefz
But this is again what I mean when I say the environment is not honest...
feuerkralle2011 04/11/2022 1:07 PM
I was brutally honest to you there. Your words dont mean anything if you can not provide prove for what you are stating (edited)
Avatar
@ElonTusk | 5Gchipped I really.believe that this comment is not.appropriate
13:08
@feuerkralle2011 my statements were clear enough to be understood. If they are useful.for.an improvement good. If not I m fine
👎 1
Avatar
Avatar
Stefz
@KeithR exactly
Don't try top align with me on this point. ElonTusk's unhappiness with the HIP is easily fixed with some editing of the story around the actions to be taken. Interestingly, if the HIP did take the approach that ElonTusk is suggesting, I think it would point more to 50 km being the max. Though that could be handled by something like "while 50 km is clearly the distance most align with the purpose, doubling it to 100km alleviates some pain with implementing at 50 km".
👍 1
Avatar
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸 04/11/2022 1:09 PM
Once this passes, which it will, (currently 90% for) and it is implemented, people will see the gamers adjusted and expansion into bare areas has slowed or stopped. Then it will either be erased (upon votes) or STRONGLY adjusted with yet another HIP.
Avatar
Avatar
Stefz
@ElonTusk | 5Gchipped I really.believe that this comment is not.appropriate
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/11/2022 1:09 PM
You're just trolling at this point.
Avatar
@ElonTusk | 5Gchipped whatever you say I m fine
Avatar
Wasn't it family time?
👆 1
Avatar
I expressed myself and made some statement
13:10
You do your considerations
Avatar
Avatar
groot
Wasn't it family time?
feuerkralle2011 04/11/2022 1:10 PM
His family died from all his talk about how this HIP ruins his life 🙂
Avatar
Avatar
Stefz
I expressed myself and made some statement
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/11/2022 1:10 PM
But no data.
Avatar
@groot you are on point my friend will be divorcing soon for helium...
Avatar
Avatar
Stefz
I expressed myself and made some statement
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/11/2022 1:11 PM
☝️ 1
Avatar
@feuerkralle2011 that s a bad joke dude
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
You're just trolling at this point.
Let's not be mean. I actually think that english is not his first language (based on some grammar errors and word choice); in which case, as I am always super impressed someone can argue in a second or third language.
Avatar
@ElonTusk | 5Gchipped ok than feel free
13:11
@KeithR I m Italian actually
Avatar
Avatar
Stefz
@feuerkralle2011 that s a bad joke dude
feuerkralle2011 04/11/2022 1:11 PM
If its ok Im good. If not Im fine
Avatar
@feuerkralle2011 don't talk about my family!
13:12
None of your business
Avatar
Avatar
KeithR
Let's not be mean. I actually think that english is not his first language (based on some grammar errors and word choice); in which case, as I am always super impressed someone can argue in a second or third language.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/11/2022 1:12 PM
The constant refusal to give data is just wasting everyone's time.
Avatar
Avatar
Stefz
@KeithR I m Italian actually
In which case, kudos for arguing with us in your second or third or fourth language. My ability to argue in Italian would be zero. That said, I still think you are wrong. 🙂
Avatar
Avatar
KeithR
Let's not be mean. I actually think that english is not his first language (based on some grammar errors and word choice); in which case, as I am always super impressed someone can argue in a second or third language.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/11/2022 1:12 PM
To be fair, the ESL doesn't help.
Avatar
@ElonTusk | 5Gchipped it s not my intention to waste any people s time
Avatar
Avatar
Stefz
@feuerkralle2011 don't talk about my family!
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/11/2022 1:13 PM
You just joked about divorcing them, so you kind of opened the door on that..
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
The constant refusal to give data is just wasting everyone's time.
A very valid point. But I also think he has admitted that this HIP will not affect him personally.
Avatar
Avatar
KeithR
A very valid point. But I also think he has admitted that this HIP will not affect him personally.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/11/2022 1:13 PM
That too
Avatar
@KeithR even if my English is not my.mother.tongue I believe you.all.guys understand the point and what I wished to highlight. That being said I m sure it s worthed a thought on the fact that witnessing even farer than 100km.should.consider a deeper thougt
13:14
@ElonTusk | 5Gchipped my family stays.out. thank you appreciate. The comment about dead is inappropriate that s all...😉
Avatar
You keep asserting that we don't consider what you're saying while in fact we (or at least I) did and just don't agree with it.
Avatar
@KeithR exactly very small amount
Avatar
Avatar
Stefz
@ElonTusk | 5Gchipped my family stays.out. thank you appreciate. The comment about dead is inappropriate that s all...😉
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/11/2022 1:15 PM
Fair 🙂
Avatar
@groot appreciate. My intention is not raising people.who agree but raising the concern
Avatar
Avatar
Stefz
@ElonTusk | 5Gchipped my family stays.out. thank you appreciate. The comment about dead is inappropriate that s all...😉
feuerkralle2011 04/11/2022 1:16 PM
If you felt offended by using dead in this context I'm sorry. It's a saying that some falls asleep/dead if someone is talking about something they dont care about
Avatar
Avatar
Stefz
@KeithR even if my English is not my.mother.tongue I believe you.all.guys understand the point and what I wished to highlight. That being said I m sure it s worthed a thought on the fact that witnessing even farer than 100km.should.consider a deeper thougt
Completely disagree. Witnessing past 50 km is pointless. Allowing to 100 is fine with me. Allowing the passing of sensor data is infinite. No one in this channel has provided a good reason to do any PoC past 50 km, let alone 100 km. (edited)
☝️ 1
💯 1
Avatar
@feuerkralle2011 that s ok mate I just misunderstood...to me family is all (second helium) lol
13:19
Ok guys just to sum up your position is very clear I just wished to raise the concern that many people, or some people, or whatever people could be unhappy of seeing not rewarded their possibility of witnessing farer than 100km.as.they did until now...( Not speaking about me.or.about gamers) that's all my concern and appreciate you.took the time to consider it even if you don't agree! Have a good one 👍 😉
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Those milking the POC rewards are just taking advantage of a flawed system. No good reason to let that continue.
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 04/11/2022 1:26 PM
😆 2
Avatar
Deleted User 04/11/2022 1:27 PM
All, look at it from an end-device point of view. In a LoRaWAN network that fully supports ADR, and a network that has plenty of gateway diversity, no cares about a gateway 100, 200 or even 300kms away (assuming there are gateways close by). The number one benefit of ADR is end device battery life preservation. The LNS will instruct each non mobile device to use the lowest SF for its uplinks which still allow the device to close its link budget with its closest gateway. It does this by using the RSSI that the each gateways sees when it receives uplinks from the device in question. The Helium network currently does not pick the gateway closest to the device based on RSSI/SNR, instead it seems to select the gateway that received the packet first. But once they fix this they can support ADR as intended. So unless you are talking about say a LoRaWAN connected tracker that is on a truck moving through the middle of nowhere which happens to get picked up by a gateway high on a hill 100km away (with no other gateway in sight), there is not much use for gateways that far away from a sensor point of view.
👆 1
Avatar
Avatar
Deleted User
All, look at it from an end-device point of view. In a LoRaWAN network that fully supports ADR, and a network that has plenty of gateway diversity, no cares about a gateway 100, 200 or even 300kms away (assuming there are gateways close by). The number one benefit of ADR is end device battery life preservation. The LNS will instruct each non mobile device to use the lowest SF for its uplinks which still allow the device to close its link budget with its closest gateway. It does this by using the RSSI that the each gateways sees when it receives uplinks from the device in question. The Helium network currently does not pick the gateway closest to the device based on RSSI/SNR, instead it seems to select the gateway that received the packet first. But once they fix this they can support ADR as intended. So unless you are talking about say a LoRaWAN connected tracker that is on a truck moving through the middle of nowhere which happens to get picked up by a gateway high on a hill 100km away (with no other gateway in sight), there is not much use for gateways that far away from a sensor point of view.
th3j0ker🛰♾ 04/11/2022 1:42 PM
Many thanks, this means that from the sensor pow this hip is a shit. From the hotspot pow is a shit too. How we got so many yes? Lol Guys this is my point of view: Hotspot able to witness within the range of the technology shall be accepted. No matter if 50 or 200. Up to now to me, this fixing of distance is just a try to stop having gamers. That's fine, the title of the hip should change.😋
13:43
Maybe to: hip 58, another try to secure the network
Avatar
Deleted User 04/11/2022 1:55 PM
Let me give an example from the point of someone who runs a console account and has a bunch of sensors connected. Assume I can filter uplink coming in from my sensors by RSSI. Why would I want to purchase a packet from a gateway that is 100km away if I can purchase the same UL from a gateway that is 1-2km away ? There is no use for the UL from that gateway far away. So the far away gateway will basically never make any money transferring real data.
Avatar
Avatar
th3j0ker🛰♾
Many thanks, this means that from the sensor pow this hip is a shit. From the hotspot pow is a shit too. How we got so many yes? Lol Guys this is my point of view: Hotspot able to witness within the range of the technology shall be accepted. No matter if 50 or 200. Up to now to me, this fixing of distance is just a try to stop having gamers. That's fine, the title of the hip should change.😋
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/11/2022 2:10 PM
pow? This HIP does not affect sensors...
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
pow? This HIP does not affect sensors...
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸 04/11/2022 3:48 PM
Unless you have hundreds of miles of area where there are no hotspots. Areas that are slow to get hotspots because of restrictions caused by a HIP that may or may not stop gamers, but more than likely will slow down expansion. Especially if the HIP authorizes a continued dropping of the allowed distances.
👍 1
Avatar
Avatar
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸
Unless you have hundreds of miles of area where there are no hotspots. Areas that are slow to get hotspots because of restrictions caused by a HIP that may or may not stop gamers, but more than likely will slow down expansion. Especially if the HIP authorizes a continued dropping of the allowed distances.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/11/2022 3:51 PM
You keep saying this will restrict expansion, but have not proved it.
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
You keep saying this will restrict expansion, but have not proved it.
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸 04/11/2022 3:57 PM
I can't prove it now, but the HIP will. You will see expansion in bare areas drop to a slow crawl or not at all. In a time we need to encourage people to move their hotspots from conjested areas to more rural areas, we are limiting the miners they can communicate with. Everyone is saying 100 km. While that is rare, 50km is not and there is nothing in the HIP to keep them from dropping the distance.
👍 2
Avatar
Avatar
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸
I can't prove it now, but the HIP will. You will see expansion in bare areas drop to a slow crawl or not at all. In a time we need to encourage people to move their hotspots from conjested areas to more rural areas, we are limiting the miners they can communicate with. Everyone is saying 100 km. While that is rare, 50km is not and there is nothing in the HIP to keep them from dropping the distance.
If IoT is needed in those areas, people will put them up. People in 1 to 2 years will be looking for 1.0 reward scale areas.
💯 1
Avatar
Can someone point to a place (actual use case) where the hotspot is 100km from a sensor (hypothetical sensor is ok) and the hotspot is indeed the closest hotspot (and the sensor will send the data up to 100 km) and the sensor is so vital the network needs to support its existence by giving said hotspot PoC rewards? Which means the point of the sensor does not also save enough money in some other ways (i.e., a very remote pump with a sensor that allows a worker not to have to be at remote pump or check on remote pump unless something goes bad). (edited)
💯 1
16:33
The only one I can really support is a hotspot in the middle of nowhere between cities so that the trailer's location can be monitored. But even that use case is a bit weak because do we really need to know where the trailer is every minute? It is ok to have some gaps during the truck's travels. And if you determine that you do need to know where the trailer is every minute, well then the trucking industry should subsidize the hotspot, not us.
16:36
So far, the only argument against the HIP is "I paid extra to be up on a cell tower really far away from everywhere and now you aren't going to subsidize my costs anymore and I am mad". The network doesn't need those installs and nothing in the documentation suggested that was a good place to put a hotspot; other than you could soak up a bunch of PoC rewards (until now).
💯 1
Avatar
Avatar
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸
I can't prove it now, but the HIP will. You will see expansion in bare areas drop to a slow crawl or not at all. In a time we need to encourage people to move their hotspots from conjested areas to more rural areas, we are limiting the miners they can communicate with. Everyone is saying 100 km. While that is rare, 50km is not and there is nothing in the HIP to keep them from dropping the distance.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/11/2022 4:36 PM
There is nothing in the HIP to keep them from raising the distance. 🤷‍♂️ (edited)
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
There is nothing in the HIP to keep them from raising the distance. 🤷‍♂️ (edited)
Can we lower it 1 kilometer a month until we find the actual breaking point?
Avatar
Avatar
KeithR
Can we lower it 1 kilometer a month until we find the actual breaking point?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/11/2022 4:38 PM
nah, 1 meter a week. Slow boil the proverbial frog 😉 lol
Avatar
1 meter an hour and you have my vote.
😅 1
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/11/2022 4:38 PM
wait... maths that would be really slow. lol
Avatar
Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 04/11/2022 4:38 PM
I dont see how "it kills expansion" it does however incentivise somewhat, more realistic deployments
💯 1
Avatar
Avatar
KeithR
Can someone point to a place (actual use case) where the hotspot is 100km from a sensor (hypothetical sensor is ok) and the hotspot is indeed the closest hotspot (and the sensor will send the data up to 100 km) and the sensor is so vital the network needs to support its existence by giving said hotspot PoC rewards? Which means the point of the sensor does not also save enough money in some other ways (i.e., a very remote pump with a sensor that allows a worker not to have to be at remote pump or check on remote pump unless something goes bad). (edited)
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸 04/11/2022 5:16 PM
I am actually going through it now. I have 2 miners on order that are going south of these 2. But ultimately I will be going much further south to bring IoT coverage to the Florida Turnpike where thousands and thousands of people a day will travel to Miami with IoT devices on their car
17:16
17:17
17:19
Avatar
Avatar
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸
Click to see attachment 🖼️
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸 04/11/2022 5:30 PM
I put these 2 here to see if I could reach. If not, I still had Orlando, but now that I know I can reach, I want to expand south
Avatar
Avatar
Fizzy
If IoT is needed in those areas, people will put them up. People in 1 to 2 years will be looking for 1.0 reward scale areas.
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸 04/11/2022 5:32 PM
I'm trying to do it now. I have invested in it now. And now that I am ready to go, the rules changed on me. See post above...
👍 2
Avatar
Avatar
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸
I'm trying to do it now. I have invested in it now. And now that I am ready to go, the rules changed on me. See post above...
Yes HIP changes things, hopefully for the better.
Avatar
Well you only need one towards the middle on highway 75; it is only 200 kilometers wide. Put one at Jeanies Blue Crab Cafe to take care of the southern route of highway 41. Looks like to me you only need one in Lewiston to cover highway 80 to cover that gap there in the middle. Nothing more than 100km away from another hotspot; this HIP does not affect these plans. And even then, I suspect given the flatness of Florida the hotspots on each coast are probably covering towards the center already. (edited)
Avatar
Avatar
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸
Click to see attachment 🖼️
Why are you not hearing all the other hotspots around you?
17:33
That really should be enough. Right?
Avatar
Avatar
Fizzy
Why are you not hearing all the other hotspots around you?
My hypothesis is that too many people in Florida have their hotspots (and antennas) inside on the first floor (since most Florida homes are single story) behind low-e windows (since the sun is brutal there). (edited)
17:34
I am heading to Tampa in two weeks to install four hotspots. To fill in some gaps in coverage. (edited)
Avatar
Overboosted (It's not YOUR hex) 04/11/2022 5:39 PM
I voted yes for HIP 58, but there are spoofers that are witness stuffing at much shorter distances. A hotspot of a friend sent a beacon and a perfect little cluster of hotspots about 16 km away picked it up. I know from the topology that this was impossible. Sure enough, I check the wallets of these hotspots and they are all making around .5 HNT a day and have witnessed counts in the 70's. You might say i'm just jealous of their superior setups, but why is it when they beacon, they only get witnessed by the ones in their cluster - which are a couple of km apart? Shouldn't they be reaching out many km? Can't a simple computer program comb through transactions of unusually high earners and pick this up automatically?
Avatar
Avatar
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸
Click to see attachment 🖼️
Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 04/11/2022 6:17 PM
You hit my area in Pinellas... redundant coverage is not "better coverage"
Avatar
Avatar
KeithR
My hypothesis is that too many people in Florida have their hotspots (and antennas) inside on the first floor (since most Florida homes are single story) behind low-e windows (since the sun is brutal there). (edited)
Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 04/11/2022 6:18 PM
true. I have almost 10 in pinellas, and a lot can only be seen by my closest miner, I assume the same.
Avatar
Avatar
Fizzy
That really should be enough. Right?
Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 04/11/2022 6:21 PM
Part is his height and dbi choice, the other is like KeithR said best I can tell from deploying here. lots of stock antenna's in a double paned window 3-5ft high.
Avatar
Avatar
KeithR
Can we lower it 1 kilometer a month until we find the actual breaking point?
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 04/11/2022 9:19 PM
U give off an extremely low HNT per day vibe brotherrr try getting ur antenna higher (edited)
21:20
😆 1
Avatar
Marin Stoyanov 04/11/2022 9:20 PM
Have you noticed the price of helium in recent days? With the introduction of the HIP 58 vote, the price went down. And only 0.59% of users voted.
facepalm 1
👎 1
🤣 1
Avatar
Avatar
Marin Stoyanov
Have you noticed the price of helium in recent days? With the introduction of the HIP 58 vote, the price went down. And only 0.59% of users voted.
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 04/11/2022 9:21 PM
Ummmm……
Avatar
Avatar
Marin Stoyanov
Have you noticed the price of helium in recent days? With the introduction of the HIP 58 vote, the price went down. And only 0.59% of users voted.
Imagine thinking the price of helium is going down because of a hip vote when bitcoin dropped 6% yesterday 😂 (edited)
😆 1
Avatar
Avatar
Marin Stoyanov
Have you noticed the price of helium in recent days? With the introduction of the HIP 58 vote, the price went down. And only 0.59% of users voted.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/11/2022 9:34 PM
👍 1
Avatar
Avatar
BSL
Imagine thinking the price of helium is going down because of a hip vote when bitcoin dropped 6% yesterday 😂 (edited)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/11/2022 9:36 PM
It's like BTC dropped under 40k or something... 🤔
Avatar
DigitalHuevos🥚 04/11/2022 9:36 PM
Hip 58 is more powerful then expected. It made Bitcoin drop too! (edited)
😆 3
Avatar
Avatar
Marin Stoyanov
Have you noticed the price of helium in recent days? With the introduction of the HIP 58 vote, the price went down. And only 0.59% of users voted.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/11/2022 9:36 PM
Also, show your math. 0.59%? (edited)
Avatar
Avatar
DigitalHuevos🥚
Hip 58 is more powerful then expected. It made Bitcoin drop too! (edited)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/11/2022 9:37 PM
Quick! Activate HIP39 to save BTC! lol
🤣 2
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Also, show your math. 0.59%? (edited)
Marin Stoyanov 04/11/2022 9:38 PM
how many they voted?
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Click to see attachment 🖼️
DigitalHuevos🥚 04/11/2022 9:38 PM
I'm digging these little kvans and trucks though. Popping up all over Hawaii
❤️ 1
Avatar
Avatar
Marin Stoyanov
how many they voted?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/11/2022 9:38 PM
First off... how many voters do you think there are?
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
First off... how many voters do you think there are?
Marin Stoyanov 04/11/2022 9:40 PM
is still not 4000 🙂
Avatar
Avatar
Marin Stoyanov
is still not 4000 🙂
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/11/2022 9:44 PM
No really.. tell me how you calculated the number of voting users without knowing the number of users...
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Click to see attachment 🖼️
That truly looks like the correlation guy is really pushing. I would be mocking that guy relentlessly for the rest of the years he was my friend.
🤣 1
Avatar
If the cab falls off the correlation and causation will be reversed so I guess they're both doing good work.
😆 1
Avatar
@Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸 you hit the point and this was what I tried to explain yesterday without being able to do so properly. Hip58 will limit expansion in Bare areas, because as we did, there are many people out there which will be unhappy of seeing their witnessing ability reduced even if they are using standard equipment with a good antenna... But still 90% of people using helium miners just buy, switch on at home and forget. Those people obviously voted for a yes to hip58 cause.their miner with their outstanding setup can't do more.than 40-50km.from inside a house
Avatar
Avatar
Stefz
@Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸 you hit the point and this was what I tried to explain yesterday without being able to do so properly. Hip58 will limit expansion in Bare areas, because as we did, there are many people out there which will be unhappy of seeing their witnessing ability reduced even if they are using standard equipment with a good antenna... But still 90% of people using helium miners just buy, switch on at home and forget. Those people obviously voted for a yes to hip58 cause.their miner with their outstanding setup can't do more.than 40-50km.from inside a house
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/11/2022 10:48 PM
The number of unsupported assumptions here is just painful. (edited)
Avatar
Those are not assumptions those are real facts..I m not in the need of talking about something which I do not know
22:49
Trust me don't wanna cause you any pain :-)
Avatar
Avatar
Stefz
Those are not assumptions those are real facts..I m not in the need of talking about something which I do not know
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/11/2022 10:51 PM
Really? So where is your proof that this will limit expansion? Where is your proof that 90% of users just "buy, switch on at home and forget"? Where is your proof that the people are voting yes because their hotspot can't hit more than 40-50km? Bunch of FUD assumptions. (edited)
Avatar
So far 2466 hotspots and 1 validator voted against, 12878 hotspots and 29 validators voted for. No whales in sight. (edited)
Avatar
@ElonTusk | 5Gchipped those are not FUD assumption this is reality. Majority of people just install inside home they do not go up the roof or go install in better location even farer from home. Limit the expansion topic: it was explained very.good.by USMC and also by Me yesterday. You are penalizing installations which provide coverage in bare areas (several of my clients did, even if they luckily are close to the cities, some of their farer than 100km possibility will be affected and they won't be happy, it s a fact not an assumption)
Avatar
Avatar
Stefz
@ElonTusk | 5Gchipped those are not FUD assumption this is reality. Majority of people just install inside home they do not go up the roof or go install in better location even farer from home. Limit the expansion topic: it was explained very.good.by USMC and also by Me yesterday. You are penalizing installations which provide coverage in bare areas (several of my clients did, even if they luckily are close to the cities, some of their farer than 100km possibility will be affected and they won't be happy, it s a fact not an assumption)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/11/2022 10:54 PM
It's not facts just because you say they are.
22:54
Where is your data?
Avatar
@ElonTusk | 5Gchipped of course if I say I say for a reason. But feel free.to not trust
Avatar
Avatar
Stefz
@ElonTusk | 5Gchipped of course if I say I say for a reason. But feel free.to not trust
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/11/2022 10:54 PM
no data, no trust
Avatar
@ElonTusk | 5Gchipped I m here.to express my opinion and raise concerns. You.keep.asking for.datas, I m not on court
22:55
@ElonTusk | 5Gchipped your choice feel free!
22:55
If your equation is = no data means lie than it s okay for me😆
Avatar
Not a lie, not a fact either.
Avatar
Avatar
Stefz
@ElonTusk | 5Gchipped I m here.to express my opinion and raise concerns. You.keep.asking for.datas, I m not on court
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/11/2022 10:56 PM
You come in here with wild accusations, but then can't back any of it up. (edited)
Avatar
Guys I m not in my twenties unfortunately I m not.im.the.need.to talk about something without a reason. Take it or leave it..as you saw from other people there are concerns about hip58
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/11/2022 10:57 PM
And you think you're going to sway people. I won't let that go unchecked.
Avatar
@ElonTusk | 5Gchipped not.accusing wildly. I said that limiting ability of.legit.miners which use standard equipment without gaming is not a good move my.friend
Avatar
Avatar
Stefz
Guys I m not in my twenties unfortunately I m not.im.the.need.to talk about something without a reason. Take it or leave it..as you saw from other people there are concerns about hip58
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/11/2022 10:57 PM
I'm far from my 20's too. So what?
Avatar
@ElonTusk | 5Gchipped not at all
Avatar
Avatar
Stefz
@ElonTusk | 5Gchipped not.accusing wildly. I said that limiting ability of.legit.miners which use standard equipment without gaming is not a good move my.friend
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/11/2022 10:58 PM
Yes, you are. You are here spouting a bunch of misinformation.
Avatar
@ElonTusk | 5Gchipped so if you.are far from 20s both is bad for.you, you should suppose for a.matter.of.respect.that when a person (me) talks about something providing some reasoning it s not just for fun.or.cause I m an idiot
22:59
@ElonTusk | 5Gchipped those are real.facts taken from.my.daily.work.with my clients do you get me on this? This is real
Avatar
Avatar
Stefz
@ElonTusk | 5Gchipped so if you.are far from 20s both is bad for.you, you should suppose for a.matter.of.respect.that when a person (me) talks about something providing some reasoning it s not just for fun.or.cause I m an idiot
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/11/2022 10:59 PM
Respect is earned.
Avatar
Real.concerncs my friend
22:59
@ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 👍
Avatar
Avatar
Stefz
@ElonTusk | 5Gchipped those are real.facts taken from.my.daily.work.with my clients do you get me on this? This is real
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/11/2022 10:59 PM
And they are not facts just because you say they are.
Avatar
Respect.is.given until is wrongly.given
22:59
They are facts because people.are.saying.it not only me
Avatar
I've looked over Italy and it will be very hard to find a 'bare' place more than 100km from any cluster.
Avatar
Avatar
Stefz
They are facts because people.are.saying.it not only me
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/11/2022 11:00 PM
That's still not facts facepalm
Avatar
Avatar
groot
I've looked over Italy and it will be very hard to find a 'bare' place more than 100km from any cluster.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/11/2022 11:00 PM
Yeah, skinny place like that.
Avatar
@groot usually cluster should stay in 30-40km.distance.from.the.higher location that outputs.best.rrsults based.on our installs. And those same installs pick not only the city around with density of miners but also farer witnessing (edited)
23:01
@ElonTusk | 5Gchipped similar to Florida yeah it s.called.the BOOT for the shape
Avatar
Avatar
Stefz
@groot usually cluster should stay in 30-40km.distance.from.the.higher location that outputs.best.rrsults based.on our installs. And those same installs pick not only the city around with density of miners but also farer witnessing (edited)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/11/2022 11:02 PM
Quick side note: Why are there so many periods in your sentances? (edited)
Avatar
@ElonTusk | 5Gchipped my.phone sucks mate.sorry.for that
Avatar
Avatar
Stefz
@groot usually cluster should stay in 30-40km.distance.from.the.higher location that outputs.best.rrsults based.on our installs. And those same installs pick not only the city around with density of miners but also farer witnessing (edited)
I don't get the relevance of this remark but the fact is it is unlikely any of your clients will be affected.
Avatar
Avatar
Stefz
They are facts because people.are.saying.it not only me
DigitalHuevos🥚 04/11/2022 11:02 PM
Lots of people think the earth is flat too. (edited)
😄 1
Avatar
Avatar
Stefz
@ElonTusk | 5Gchipped my.phone sucks mate.sorry.for that
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/11/2022 11:02 PM
ahh no worries
Avatar
@DigitalHuevos🥚 ahhaahah well ok but trust me or not my clients seem they don't believe so but I could ask 😆
23:03
Or covid doesn't kill
🤨 1
23:05
@groot probably it won't be more tha n 5-10% of witnessing cause.majority.of.that is done within 50-60km.my.friend...but.it s nice to see sometimes a 180-190km.witness and in some case going international to Croatia😆
Avatar
So if I understand it correctly you have been bashing this HIP for days for killing those installations while in fact they are only marginally affected, some maybe even witness stuffers? Ok I'm done.
💯 2
Avatar
Avatar
Stefz
@groot probably it won't be more tha n 5-10% of witnessing cause.majority.of.that is done within 50-60km.my.friend...but.it s nice to see sometimes a 180-190km.witness and in some case going international to Croatia😆
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 04/11/2022 11:06 PM
Show me ur ETL…. Please for fuk sake u have been in here all day
Avatar
Not for days. From yesterday afternoon
23:06
@Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) I was.sleepimg.also.i.have a life too👍
23:07
I wished to raise.the concerns and I could see there were other guys believing the same, I could count 3-4....maybe it s that 10% voting no
Avatar
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 04/11/2022 11:08 PM
I’m prly one of the few ppl I. This chat with HS actually getting nerfed….
23:08
And it’s not even gonna make a difference in all reality
23:09
About 10% of my beacons sent out are being cut
Avatar
Avatar
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions)
I’m prly one of the few ppl I. This chat with HS actually getting nerfed….
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/11/2022 11:09 PM
I have one install that will take a hit, but it's very very small.
☝️ 1
Avatar
The goal of the hip58 seems to be removing those gamers.from.the game...but it s gonna hit without a dinstictions
23:10
@Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) so you.are not alone or I m not alone here
👍 1
Avatar
Avatar
Stefz
@Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) so you.are not alone or I m not alone here
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 04/11/2022 11:10 PM
You have yet to show me ur ETL…
Avatar
@Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) I won't show customers data I m sorry
23:11
I know people are asking.that
Avatar
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 04/11/2022 11:11 PM
Lmfao 🤦‍♂️
23:11
Dud
Avatar
Still my concern is being raised and several are agreeing on that...majority doesn't
23:11
@Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) sorry for that
Avatar
Avatar
Stefz
Still my concern is being raised and several are agreeing on that...majority doesn't
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/11/2022 11:12 PM
They are agreeing on false info.
☝️ 1
Avatar
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 04/11/2022 11:12 PM
I was the first person in this chat screaming how stupid this hip is
Avatar
@ElonTusk | 5Gchipped ok. I see.your.positiom and you.see.mine but I wanna give u a real example.on a install done if u can follow without further commenting on respect and datas ok?
Avatar
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 04/11/2022 11:13 PM
One look at the ETL I realize that it’s gonna be a good thing
23:13
Why don’t you look at your ETL and see
Avatar
@Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) I came yesterday I m rarely.on discord too busy
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/11/2022 11:14 PM
Anyway, short of some massive whale coming in and flipping the vote, this HIP is passing. 🤷‍♂️ 92% of the weighted votes, and 87.53% of votes. Clear cut yes vote.
Avatar
Avatar
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions)
One look at the ETL I realize that it’s gonna be a good thing
Not everyone is blessed with an open mind.
Avatar
Avatar
Stefz
@Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) I came yesterday I m rarely.on discord too busy
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 04/11/2022 11:16 PM
Again just look at the ETL my man @groot is the guy for setting this up he even made the v2 just for me ❤️
❤️ 2
Avatar
Shortly we did an install at about 30km from a city in a not densed populated area with transmit scale 1.0. we used a old.television pole I used when I was younger as a RF amateur... The Los is amazing and still the position is.... This place witness 80-90% the 2 densed populated areas around and due to the height of this position it could witness also 180-190km.far.away. why the hell should be those witnessing removed???
23:16
@Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) you.touch all my points!!!
23:17
And that s what we exactly.did to expand helium network
Avatar
Avatar
Stefz
@Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) you.touch all my points!!!
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 04/11/2022 11:17 PM
Go see how much ur actually witnessing from 100+ km PLEASE I’m only losing like a dozen witnesses on a handful of spots….
23:18
I’m gonna miss my island boy 🏝
Avatar
@Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) I can tell you for.one.hotstpot I own it s about 0.1hnt.day
23:18
4-5 witness a day it could be
Avatar
Avatar
Stefz
4-5 witness a day it could be
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 04/11/2022 11:18 PM
That’s literally nothing….
Avatar
Avatar
Stefz
Shortly we did an install at about 30km from a city in a not densed populated area with transmit scale 1.0. we used a old.television pole I used when I was younger as a RF amateur... The Los is amazing and still the position is.... This place witness 80-90% the 2 densed populated areas around and due to the height of this position it could witness also 180-190km.far.away. why the hell should be those witnessing removed???
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/11/2022 11:18 PM
This has been explained over and over. Because they network rewards coverage that is useful to the network.
Avatar
@Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 0.1 I don't call it nothing😉
Avatar
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 04/11/2022 11:19 PM
Well u say it’s .1
Avatar
Avatar
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions)
I’m gonna miss my island boy 🏝
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/11/2022 11:19 PM
☝️ 2
😂 1
Avatar
@ElonTusk | 5Gchipped yes but do not remove.that extra.witnessing ability...
Avatar
DigitalHuevos🥚 04/11/2022 11:19 PM
There is 3 if those weirdos now😃
😆 1
Avatar
With a working network 4-5 witnesses isn't going to be 0.1
☝️ 1
Avatar
@Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) averaging 0.02hnt.per.witness just quick math...doing it X 5 makes 0.1...
Avatar
Avatar
Stefz
@ElonTusk | 5Gchipped yes but do not remove.that extra.witnessing ability...
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/11/2022 11:20 PM
You are there to provide data coverage, not POC "coverage".
Avatar
@groot what will it be? 0.01?
Avatar
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 04/11/2022 11:20 PM
.007 per full 14 1.0 ts scale beacon atm I’m pretty sure is the avg….
Avatar
@ElonTusk | 5Gchipped we do greatly that...the so.called.bare or remote areas
Avatar
Avatar
Stefz
@groot what will it be? 0.01?
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 04/11/2022 11:21 PM
4-5 witnesses.01-.03 I would guess at MOST
Avatar
0.05 tops, given they're not all full (14) (edited)
Avatar
@Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) the average of this witnessing is around 0.015 to 0.025 that s why i.l said 0.02
Avatar
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 04/11/2022 11:21 PM
Unless u where the only miner to witness those beacons
Avatar
@groot that s too good...rarely seen in my 190km.witness
Avatar
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 04/11/2022 11:21 PM
It’s not gonna even be noticeable
Avatar
0.02 is my average for this far away witnessing guys
Avatar
0.05 for the 5, not the 1 😂
Avatar
@groot I said for the 5 it s 0.1😉
23:22
You say 0.01 I see 0.02 on average on this witnessing
Avatar
Well, I see 0.5HNT/witness on one of mine and as I don't have to provide any data I can just claim that right?
😆 1
Avatar
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 04/11/2022 11:23 PM
Remember the network is 💩 atm
Avatar
@groot 0.5???
Avatar
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 04/11/2022 11:23 PM
So ur witness rewards will b lower soooon
Avatar
I know that
Avatar
Yeah sure, sometimes even 2.5 on good days.
👍 1
🤣 1
Avatar
But not only it will be lower but it will also be.more.limited with this hip58
Avatar
Avatar
groot
Yeah sure, sometimes even 2.5 on good days.
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 04/11/2022 11:24 PM
23:24
One of Best movie ever ⬆️ (edited)
Avatar
Great actor!
👍 1
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Anyway, short of some massive whale coming in and flipping the vote, this HIP is passing. 🤷‍♂️ 92% of the weighted votes, and 87.53% of votes. Clear cut yes vote.
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 04/11/2022 11:26 PM
can’t wait until this happens eventually lmfao 🤣
Avatar
I m just worried some of the clients we provided those installs especially.in the above mentioned location will be unhappy and will decide not to expand in bare areas more...
Avatar
Avatar
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions)
can’t wait until this happens eventually lmfao 🤣
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/11/2022 11:27 PM
I seem to recall it did happen a few times while 39 was up for a vote. Flipped back and forth.
Avatar
Avatar
Stefz
I m just worried some of the clients we provided those installs especially.in the above mentioned location will be unhappy and will decide not to expand in bare areas more...
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/11/2022 11:27 PM
If there is a reason to place there, people will.
Avatar
Up until now, ed: think I need to filter double voters as heliumvote.com has less votes. (edited)
Avatar
@ElonTusk | 5Gchipped of course there is a perspective of data transfer and a great 1.0 transmit scale rate...until now there was also the possibility to witness farer than 100km which is an extra juice of 2-3 HNT per month if we assume that 0.1 HNT daily of those witnessing...
23:29
@groot yes is gonna win
23:30
Hope the goal of the hip58 which wanna stop the emorragy.caused by gamers won't cause amputation of the arm😉 👍
Avatar
Avatar
Stefz
@ElonTusk | 5Gchipped of course there is a perspective of data transfer and a great 1.0 transmit scale rate...until now there was also the possibility to witness farer than 100km which is an extra juice of 2-3 HNT per month if we assume that 0.1 HNT daily of those witnessing...
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 04/11/2022 11:30 PM
23:30
FUGAZI
23:31
It’s all funny money
Avatar
Present is present future is unknown
Avatar
Avatar
Stefz
Hope the goal of the hip58 which wanna stop the emorragy.caused by gamers won't cause amputation of the arm😉 👍
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 04/11/2022 11:31 PM
As long as helium miners use SDRs gaming will always be an issue…..
Avatar
Avatar
Stefz
Hope the goal of the hip58 which wanna stop the emorragy.caused by gamers won't cause amputation of the arm😉 👍
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 04/11/2022 11:31 PM
Just use the querry from @groot, then we know for sure
☝️ 2
23:33
This is how it looks for me, it's miniscule
Avatar
Avatar
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions)
Click to see attachment 🖼️
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/11/2022 11:33 PM
Funny... I just watch a parady of that scene (edited)
Avatar
The funny thing is that the dashboard doesn't even filter the witness stuffers we've had over the recent weeks as the denylist isn't in the ETL currently. Some might be even less affected than they thought.
Avatar
Avatar
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions)
Click to see attachment 🖼️
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/11/2022 11:34 PM
😂 1
Avatar
On one of my.hotspot is 13%
23:34
Not a small amount tbh
23:35
@groot it s well-done congrats!
💯 1
Avatar
Avatar
Stefz
Not a small amount tbh
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 04/11/2022 11:35 PM
thats 87 to 13 ...
Avatar
Avatar
Stefz
Hope the goal of the hip58 which wanna stop the emorragy.caused by gamers won't cause amputation of the arm😉 👍
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 04/11/2022 11:35 PM
Only real hope we have at security is through hips at this point it can’t be coded out the vulnerability gamers will alway be able to take advantage because of known exploits in the code/construct of the hotspot
Avatar
@Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 I said 13%...
23:35
28 out of 230
Avatar
Avatar
Stefz
@Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 I said 13%...
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 04/11/2022 11:35 PM
per cent normally means of a 100
💯 1
Avatar
@Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) it s needed a better sw effort to limit them and
23:36
@Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 I know that I answered you with numbers above
Avatar
Avatar
Stefz
@Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 I know that I answered you with numbers above
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 04/11/2022 11:37 PM
It doesn't change a thing tho
23:37
Just enter your hotspot and check it, no need to talk all day
Avatar
Sorry total witness 215. Above 100km 28 witness
🤨 1
23:38
You.do.the math!
Avatar
In 60 days?
Avatar
It s simple not need to talk about it
23:38
@groot max days back 60
Avatar
Avatar
Stefz
@Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) it s needed a better sw effort to limit them and
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 04/11/2022 11:39 PM
I can’t get into details… but helium miners have major issues based on the radio card construction and it’s kinda too late to recall 700k hotspots so hips are our only hope at stoping gamers at this point….
😮 1
😬 1
Avatar
But this was installed recently
23:39
@Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) I know. They cut the arm to.prevent the emorragy
Avatar
Avatar
Stefz
You.do.the math!
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 04/11/2022 11:39 PM
That's just a little more than 12%
Avatar
@Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 I don't call little 12-13% at all....
23:40
But it depends on point of view
Avatar
Avatar
Stefz
@Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 I don't call little 12-13% at all....
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 04/11/2022 11:40 PM
I have a feeling we hit a language semantics barrier 😅 (edited)
Avatar
@Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 probably...I m italian
23:40
But still 12-13% is not a small amount right
Avatar
radio card is fine, it's what happens between the radio card and the miner sw that's the issue. no quick fix available too. original poc didn't have this issue by the way so it's more of a hip15/17 issue.
Avatar
Avatar
Stefz
@Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 probably...I m italian
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 04/11/2022 11:41 PM
Yeah I'm German, we are kinda obsessed with precision
Avatar
@Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 hahaha dann wir konnen auf deutsch Schreiber 😆
Avatar
Avatar
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪
Yeah I'm German, we are kinda obsessed with precision
Only when it suits you 😛
🤣 2
Avatar
Avatar
Stefz
@Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 hahaha dann wir konnen auf deutsch Schreiber 😆
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 04/11/2022 11:41 PM
Nah, english channel, we should stick to that
Avatar
Avatar
groot
Only when it suits you 😛
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 04/11/2022 11:41 PM
busted
😆 1
Avatar
Avatar
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪
Yeah I'm German, we are kinda obsessed with precision
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/11/2022 11:42 PM
kek 2
Avatar
So to all my.friends here I just did a quick check and I saw 12-13%....to sum up...that s not the 0.9% given to validators recently
23:42
@Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 that was joke👍
👍 1
23:43
But I just checked one so.results can vary definitely.on other hotsposts
23:43
The concern is real for some.installations guys
Avatar
Avatar
Stefz
So to all my.friends here I just did a quick check and I saw 12-13%....to sum up...that s not the 0.9% given to validators recently
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 04/11/2022 11:43 PM
2 different metrics, you can't compare lost witnesses with lost rewards, they don't translate well. One are witnesses/beacons, the other is creating challenges (edited)
Avatar
Avatar
Stefz
The concern is real for some.installations guys
For one installation.
Avatar
I m not comparing I just used the suggested program....I m aware of those.farer witnessing I just didn't know the exact percentage which now came to life with Groot's program
Avatar
Do it across all and either you have some really non-standard setups, have a bunch of stuffers in your backyard or it'll turn out just fine.
Avatar
@groot that s my only.hope.thaat other installs won't suffer same of clients will have a word to say to me😉
Avatar
Personally I'm more surprised that you managed to get 13% above 100km with just 215 witnesses.
Avatar
@groot non standard setups if we agree on this.definitiom for the off grid ones
Avatar
Avatar
Stefz
@groot non standard setups if we agree on this.definitiom for the off grid ones
I don't agree on anything but data though, sorry.
Avatar
Avatar
Stefz
@groot that s my only.hope.thaat other installs won't suffer same of clients will have a word to say to me😉
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 04/11/2022 11:46 PM
Why would they say anything to u
Avatar
@groot now you.got.some.datas...well i provided that one so far
Avatar
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 04/11/2022 11:46 PM
Your not nova labs….
23:46
Your just a hotspots deployer
Avatar
Avatar
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions)
Why would they say anything to u
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 04/11/2022 11:46 PM
My clients don't care what happens in Helium, they just want their share every month xD
Avatar
Heefi's setup is non-standard, protected by fighter jets and tanks and still only a little bit affected.
Avatar
@Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) cause we installed.them and they paid us for the.work... now if they see reduced their rewards.they.won t be happy
Avatar
Avatar
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪
My clients don't care what happens in Helium, they just want their share every month xD
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 04/11/2022 11:47 PM
Jeff don’t give a damn as long as I bring him his milk 🥛
❤️ 2
Avatar
@Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 same here but if their cut.will be 10%.....😩
Avatar
Avatar
Stefz
@Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) cause we installed.them and they paid us for the.work... now if they see reduced their rewards.they.won t be happy
Implying 13% will stand out in the variance of the network 😂
Avatar
Avatar
Stefz
@Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) cause we installed.them and they paid us for the.work... now if they see reduced their rewards.they.won t be happy
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 04/11/2022 11:47 PM
Your not reducing the rewards…..
23:47
Helium is
23:48
Tell them to take it up with the blockchain
23:48
Avatar
Avatar
Stefz
@Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) cause we installed.them and they paid us for the.work... now if they see reduced their rewards.they.won t be happy
I'm not complaining to my electrician that my electricity rates are going up, I'm blaming @Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 because they shut all their nuclear power plants.
Avatar
Avatar
Stefz
@Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) cause we installed.them and they paid us for the.work... now if they see reduced their rewards.they.won t be happy
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 04/11/2022 11:49 PM
Just tell your clients you voted NO on the HiP….
23:49
🤣
Avatar
Avatar
Stefz
@Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 same here but if their cut.will be 10%.....😩
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 04/11/2022 11:49 PM
What, just discuss a fixed payout, i pay mine 40%
Avatar
Avatar
groot
I'm not complaining to my electrician that my electricity rates are going up, I'm blaming @Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 because they shut all their nuclear power plants.
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 04/11/2022 11:50 PM
I did not vote for that, neither before nor after Fukushima haha
Avatar
Avatar
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪
I did not vote for that, neither before nor after Fukushima haha
Just joking to be clear 🙂
Avatar
Guys any person seeing rewards.down 10%®won't be happy ;-)
23:50
@groot you hired to talk to them 👍
Avatar
Avatar
groot
Just joking to be clear 🙂
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 04/11/2022 11:51 PM
I know 👍
Avatar
But still my main point was to prove.that this hip58 will affect pretty much some.installs...and indeed....
Avatar
Avatar
Stefz
@groot you hired to talk to them 👍
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 04/11/2022 11:51 PM
Avatar
Gotta go now! Have a good one
Avatar
Avatar
Stefz
@groot you hired to talk to them 👍
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 04/11/2022 11:51 PM
Send them my way!!
Avatar
Avatar
Stefz
Guys any person seeing rewards.down 10%®won't be happy ;-)
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 04/11/2022 11:51 PM
Well, i don't think i can convince you any more. But don't forget that we have a halving every 2years. If you are concerned about loosing 12% now, you better buckle up for the coming years
💯 1
Avatar
@Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 😆
Avatar
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 04/11/2022 11:51 PM
I gotch my my dude
Avatar
The issue was never that it did not affect any installs, it was about the claimed severity.
Avatar
12% is severe my friend
Avatar
Avatar
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪
Well, i don't think i can convince you any more. But don't forget that we have a halving every 2years. If you are concerned about loosing 12% now, you better buckle up for the coming years
Not to mention exponential growth and 5G.
👆 2
Avatar
Have a good one
👋 1
23:52
@Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 👍 😉
Avatar
Avatar
Stefz
12% is severe my friend
12% is less than a month of new onboards.
☝️ 1
😂 1
coolcry 1
Avatar
@Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 no need my friend:-)
😉 1
Avatar
Omg another one gets 11.7%
00:07
😩
00:07
Sorry -11.7%
00:08
@Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 I tried to DM you are u with DM blocked?
Avatar
Avatar
Stefz
@Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 I tried to DM you are u with DM blocked?
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 04/12/2022 12:16 AM
My DMS are closed
Avatar
Avatar
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions)
can’t wait until this happens eventually lmfao 🤣
*Big Pimpin* (Not Jack Sparrow) 04/12/2022 12:17 AM
That would prove my point to the naysayers that whales don't affect the vote. 😂 Redomination rig a bell anyone?
Avatar
Avatar
*Big Pimpin* (Not Jack Sparrow)
That would prove my point to the naysayers that whales don't affect the vote. 😂 Redomination rig a bell anyone?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/12/2022 12:20 AM
73.81% weighted vote vs 65% of Yes votes on hip39. (edited)
Avatar
@Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 i noticed i wished to DM you
00:30
@ElonTusk | 5Gchipped please check my numbers above😉
Avatar
Avatar
Stefz
@Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 i noticed i wished to DM you
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 04/12/2022 12:43 AM
You can talk with me here. If you have a scammer to report, please report in #😡-report-scammers
Avatar
Avatar
*Big Pimpin* (Not Jack Sparrow)
That would prove my point to the naysayers that whales don't affect the vote. 😂 Redomination rig a bell anyone?
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 04/12/2022 12:44 AM
I mean the fact the helium.staking guy has the voting power of the community… but this isn’t the channel to discuss tht lol 😆
Avatar
@Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 nothing really urgent it was something more personal but that s fine
👍 1
Avatar
I thought stefz was done with this channel like 12 hours ago 😜
😄 1
01:32
I remember when hip25 nuked helium rewards. Now I have to go through this next apocalypse. I will witness your beacon on the other side my friend.
🤘 1
Avatar
@Fizzy haaha that was before sleeping my friend..this morning I woke up with nightmares when I tried the Etl app outputting an average loss per miner of 8-15% for longer distance above 100km witnessing (I just run through 10 miners so far), so hell yeah my concerns now got real with real numbers. P.s. those are my customers miners😉 (edited)
Avatar
There are two expected outcomes. The first is that gaming techniques which operate on reported distances above the selected threshold will be made impossible. The second outcome is that there will be no measurable reduction in the rewards received by legitimate hotspots, even for exceptionally high performers such as tower deployments.
02:34
The second outcome I just proved is really just a wrong assumption, as some of miners we managed are exactly on top of towers (edited)
02:36
Reduction is in the order of 8-15%. Signed by HIP58!👍
Avatar
This ensures that high performing operators, such as those with antennas on towers and other high locations will not be de-incentivised from providing exceptional coverage
👎 1
facepalm 1
02:47
All this written in GitHub in the reality is just wrong!
02:48
I would like to talk to people who wrote this and provide some real datas
02:50
From my side I expressed all I should and provided some datas. Now it s up to helium Devs to do a honest discussion within them. Good luck 👍
Avatar
Avatar
Stefz
The second outcome I just proved is really just a wrong assumption, as some of miners we managed are exactly on top of towers (edited)
Those hotspots shouldn't have been rewarded in the first place. It's a flaw of PoC. Since sensors cannot reach (or very rarely reach) those distances, POC rewards shouldn't have been given for those distances. It's as simple as that. And the 100km limit is generous, because it should actually be less. Btw, I also have a tower hotspot (edited)
👆 1
💯 1
Avatar
@ricopt5 I explained yesterday and this morning the functioning of those setups providing coverage in bare areas and in nearby cities...and provided datas. With all being said I raised the concerns and provided real data reductions for those kind of installs averaging from 7 to 15% for 22 hotspots. You can go through my messages to understand the issue. The statement those hotspots should not have been rewarded it s just very superficial cause it doesn't account the fact they provide real data coverage plus in some cases reach very far witnessing (7-15% witnessing above 100km). If you check my messages you will have a better view (edited)
Avatar
Avatar
Stefz
@ricopt5 I explained yesterday and this morning the functioning of those setups providing coverage in bare areas and in nearby cities...and provided datas. With all being said I raised the concerns and provided real data reductions for those kind of installs averaging from 7 to 15% for 22 hotspots. You can go through my messages to understand the issue. The statement those hotspots should not have been rewarded it s just very superficial cause it doesn't account the fact they provide real data coverage plus in some cases reach very far witnessing (7-15% witnessing above 100km). If you check my messages you will have a better view (edited)
Again, those 7% to 15% shouldn't have been rewarded in the first place. POC has a flaw that allowed it, hip58 tries to mitigate it. No one is saying that there will not be a reduction of rewards for some, but those rewards should have not been awarded in the first place. (edited)
💯 1
03:57
And before you say that reducing those rewards stifle the network expansion, the network expansion is covered by hip15 and hip17
👍 1
Avatar
Clear rules without changes on the run would be the way to go. I m just a minority here and I m fine with that but the assumption in GitHub pasted above were done without considering real datas. That s amateurish and disappointing providing Infos that "no measurable reduction" will happen. In any case hip58 will win so good luck!
👎 1
facepalm 1
Avatar
Avatar
Stefz
Clear rules without changes on the run would be the way to go. I m just a minority here and I m fine with that but the assumption in GitHub pasted above were done without considering real datas. That s amateurish and disappointing providing Infos that "no measurable reduction" will happen. In any case hip58 will win so good luck!
HIP's are supposed to be rule changing. Rules in the real world are also always changing, ones more than others, but that's how you get improvements. Also if you cherry pick hotspots, of course you will see a big reduction, but if you check the entire network of hotspots that are not cheating, the reduction is negligible, and that's what this HIP presents.
Avatar
Hip58 is having the goal to reduce or remove the gamers. The method of reaching this goal is gonna affect also other installs as the above mentioned which are not guilty or just to say they are legal and clean... It s like healing an infection by cutting the arm... I m on installation site my time on discord for now is enough I ve already expressed and raised the concerns, provided data's and expressed some critics. Just my 2 cents for helium network. Have a good one all!
👎 1
Avatar
Original message was deleted or could not be loaded.
hackNthisNthat 🇨🇦 04/12/2022 4:32 AM
Please do not spam multiple channels. #hotspot-help is what you want or bobcat discord
Avatar
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸 04/12/2022 5:06 AM
@Stefz you would be better suited to explain your position on another social media tool. The people here are closed on 3 things and there is nothing you can say to redirect them. 1.) Sensors can't read that far A.)even though it has been repeatedly brought up that if there are no hotspots in a bare area, sensors won't read anything. 2.) The nay people are only wanting to benefit their super setups. A.) Even though, multiple times, it was brought up the objection isn't for those with super setups, but rather for those trying to have ANY setup in bare areas. 3.) There are very few reaching 100 km anyways. A.) The network is damaged right now many people lost most all witnesses, so no accurate test. B.) The HIP wanted 50 km, but moved it to 100 km to pass it, but it is written in the HIP they can "govern" the distance as they see fit.
👎 1
Avatar
Avatar
groot
12% is less than a month of new onboards.
Deleted User 04/12/2022 6:10 AM
here 50 % less almost atm since the problems started begin of april
👎 1
Avatar
@Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸 thanks Jeff. I raised the concerns and proved some real datas based on a small fleet of 22 miners. My days are busy with work and family very rarely I do join discord. But appreciated your tips!👍
👍 1
Avatar
Deleted User 04/12/2022 6:12 AM
is this network building run by volunteers or helium have a paid crew ?
06:12
cause this will explain a lot i thing ...
Avatar
Avatar
Deleted User
here 50 % less almost atm since the problems started begin of april
Not seeing the relevance of your issues to my statement.
Avatar
Avatar
Deleted User
is this network building run by volunteers or helium have a paid crew ?
"People's network" So it's supposed to be run by the community, but Nova also has paid people working on it (edited)
Avatar
Avatar
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸
@Stefz you would be better suited to explain your position on another social media tool. The people here are closed on 3 things and there is nothing you can say to redirect them. 1.) Sensors can't read that far A.)even though it has been repeatedly brought up that if there are no hotspots in a bare area, sensors won't read anything. 2.) The nay people are only wanting to benefit their super setups. A.) Even though, multiple times, it was brought up the objection isn't for those with super setups, but rather for those trying to have ANY setup in bare areas. 3.) There are very few reaching 100 km anyways. A.) The network is damaged right now many people lost most all witnesses, so no accurate test. B.) The HIP wanted 50 km, but moved it to 100 km to pass it, but it is written in the HIP they can "govern" the distance as they see fit.
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 04/12/2022 7:39 AM
Did u even use the test it’s a log… it goes back to infinity…. I went back 60 days….
07:40
???
Avatar
@Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) I m working so not really paying attention now. I went back 60 days. Average reduction in farer witnesses (above 100km) for the 22 miner ranges from 7-15%. Those are the datas I got from the app. Any further conclusion is subjective. Number are numbers. (edited)
Avatar
Avatar
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions)
Did u even use the test it’s a log… it goes back to infinity…. I went back 60 days….
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸 04/12/2022 8:15 AM
Ok. I am just repeating myself, over and over and over again. I am NOT talking about those that are already installed, reaching as far as they can to pad their earnings. I am talking about those that will need the reach to install into bare areas where there are no hotspots, so they can EXPAND our network into these areas so sensors can be used. Now you're going to say "just install more hotspots so they can witness eachother" then I will say "why should I have to break the bank to do exactly what many did to get us to this point" then you will say, "there is no reason to reach 100km" then I will say "expanding into bare areas is needed" and "there is nothing in the wording of this HIP that keeps them from dropping the distance from 100 to 50 or less as the cheaters keep adjusting ". We have had this conversation for days. Im tired of it. The HIP will pass. The cheaters will adjust, the distance will be lessened, then after expansion virtually stops, another HIP will be introduced to offset the damage this one did. Everyone is acting like this network is fully built and we are in the tweaking mode. Far from true. There is still many areas that sensors will be used where there are currently no hotspots. I, and many more, will just have to adjust our plans, spend A LOT more money and expect a much, much longer ROI. Its not fair to those still trying to build a network. The majority of the voters, who have horrible setups, earning off of the backs of those who laid the ground work, are making the decisions that WILL NOT STOP CHEATERS, but WILL SUPRESS EXPANSION. (edited)
facepalm 1
👎 1
Avatar
Jeff same here we are on same boat. I have already 2 clients who told me they are not sure they wanna deploy more hotsposts in remote areas after all this hip58... This is true and this will affect network expansion in many remote areas, agricultural, mountains, hills and such which should be actually incentivized. But as already clearly said I feel majority of people here do not understand what a business plan is, what ROI is and what playing with certain rules means in order to be effective and productive in the middle long term. Hip58 goal.to kill gamers probably will be reached in the short term than probably gamers will find another way to cheat and as a result only the "clean and legal" hotspot who suffered this limitation will be Hit by this. Short story. Full period. No more to say I keep working
08:23
And to be totally honest the majority of.helium users do not climb.on hills or on top of towers or on off-grid locations to install hotspots. They just buy, install at home near window and that s it. If this is helium philosophy than I played at another level until now
👍 1
👎 1
08:23
I mean me and many others, obviously not the majority. Cheers👍 (edited)
👍 2
Avatar
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸 04/12/2022 8:26 AM
Those are two solid posts, explaining solid arguments. Too little, too late, but at least we tried to expalin the potential problems with HIP 58
👍 2
👎 1
Avatar
I did my best with my not perfect English and apologies for.my bad wording. Raising concerns, critics and showing data's is the only way to improve. I did that. I can't do more for now
Avatar
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸 04/12/2022 8:29 AM
Can you imagine where we would be right now if we limited distance for rewards during initial expansion? Not at over 700k miners! I assure you of that! (edited)
👎 1
Avatar
That s what I was saying yesterday. From.day one limit distance at 10 miles like it s written over the miner s boxes and done. Simple easy game! Clear rules from day 1. But it seems people do not understand this concept so I'm done
08:31
At my age it s my mistake to explain concepts which to me are obvious and logical and for many others are not
08:31
Still loving helium and the project itself!
Avatar
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸 04/12/2022 8:35 AM
I spoke with Stefz off this post. He has a very valid business plan he has been aggressively working in a very important area. HIP 58 will directly (and has directly) hurt his plan and investments. When he started his adventure, he was playing by the rules. Now that he is invested, and the plan is not completed, the rules have changed. This is not fair. FULL STOP
👎 1
Avatar
Could you imagine where we would be without hip25, and the rules changing forever...?
08:36
What about hip19? The rules changed.
08:36
Not fair that I can not build my Hotspot diy anymore. 😒 waah
👆 1
Avatar
Avatar
Fizzy
Could you imagine where we would be without hip25, and the rules changing forever...?
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸 04/12/2022 8:38 AM
Boy are you going down the wrong rabbit hole! I am absolutley in favor of HIPs and rule changes. Fair ones, that don't hurt the network and those that have invested. You are now trying to put words in my mouth that I have never uttered, or hinted to. (edited)
😂 1
Avatar
Avatar
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸
Boy are you going down the wrong rabbit hole! I am absolutley in favor of HIPs and rule changes. Fair ones, that don't hurt the network and those that have invested. You are now trying to put words in my mouth that I have never uttered, or hinted to. (edited)
Those are my words, they are not for your mouth. Thats gross.
Avatar
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸 04/12/2022 8:43 AM
I'm out. This is not where HIP 58 can be debated. Our opinions have been made fun of and run through the mud unfairly, immaturely, and without justification. (edited)
👎 1
Avatar
Avatar
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸
I'm out. This is not where HIP 58 can be debated. Our opinions have been made fun of and run through the mud unfairly, immaturely, and without justification. (edited)
All your opinions are that it's not fair that the rules are changing and that it will hurt your bottom line. People against still have not made a proper argument about why they need over 100km, why there is not hotspots somewhere inbetween you and that very generous 100km are not good enough to be rewarded off of. (edited)
Avatar
Avatar
Fizzy
All your opinions are that it's not fair that the rules are changing and that it will hurt your bottom line. People against still have not made a proper argument about why they need over 100km, why there is not hotspots somewhere inbetween you and that very generous 100km are not good enough to be rewarded off of. (edited)
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸 04/12/2022 8:48 AM
Then you have not read the posts, or seen the pictures. I will not repeat my self again! It is all there. Good day
👍 1
Avatar
Avatar
Fizzy
All your opinions are that it's not fair that the rules are changing and that it will hurt your bottom line. People against still have not made a proper argument about why they need over 100km, why there is not hotspots somewhere inbetween you and that very generous 100km are not good enough to be rewarded off of. (edited)
Deleted User 04/12/2022 8:50 AM
because we don't want to lose 10-17 % 🙂
08:50
and those people are on towers etc
08:51
what will happen is that people will place their packet forwarders different
Avatar
Avatar
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸
Then you have not read the posts, or seen the pictures. I will not repeat my self again! It is all there. Good day
Oh I have. You desperately need to do some community outreach to correct the indoor placements of the hundreds of hotspots already within your 100km, so you can witness them. Not rely on some other helium head over 100km in another city to give you witness reward fix.
💯 1
🤯 1
Avatar
Deleted User 04/12/2022 8:51 AM
and okazy they will not have those anymore above 100 KM byut they will place more around etc
08:52
i can see the main reason for this HIP , it's to fight against packet forwarders and gamers . but it won't change a thing . cat & mouse .....
08:53
some already got the new system ready once HIP58 will be active .....
Avatar
Avatar
Fizzy
Oh I have. You desperately need to do some community outreach to correct the indoor placements of the hundreds of hotspots already within your 100km, so you can witness them. Not rely on some other helium head over 100km in another city to give you witness reward fix.
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸 04/12/2022 8:58 AM
Avatar
Avatar
Deleted User
some already got the new system ready once HIP58 will be active .....
There's no way around a distance limit. You can assert your hotspot to be closer, but that means it's going to be farther from others. Eg hotspot1 ---- 300km ----- cheater ------ 200km ------ hotspot2 The cheater can be reasserted to be closer to hotspot2 for example, but it will never reach hotspot1 ever again
Avatar
Avatar
Fizzy
Oh I have. You desperately need to do some community outreach to correct the indoor placements of the hundreds of hotspots already within your 100km, so you can witness them. Not rely on some other helium head over 100km in another city to give you witness reward fix.
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸 04/12/2022 8:58 AM
Hundreds of hotspots?
Avatar
Avatar
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸
Click to see attachment 🖼️
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 04/12/2022 9:00 AM
Show me 1 hotspot thts reaching across the state of Florida… this is a useless picture going that far actually is quite difficult….. (edited)
Avatar
Avatar
ricopt5
There's no way around a distance limit. You can assert your hotspot to be closer, but that means it's going to be farther from others. Eg hotspot1 ---- 300km ----- cheater ------ 200km ------ hotspot2 The cheater can be reasserted to be closer to hotspot2 for example, but it will never reach hotspot1 ever again
Deleted User 04/12/2022 9:01 AM
yeah and they will put more around 1 and 2 and use more packet forwarders
Avatar
Avatar
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions)
Show me 1 hotspot thts reaching across the state of Florida… this is a useless picture going that far actually is quite difficult….. (edited)
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸 04/12/2022 9:01 AM
I have posted pics of my hotspots reaching across Florida 3 times. Do you need me to REPEAT myself again? (edited)
Avatar
Deleted User 04/12/2022 9:01 AM
and concentrate it to specific area's / regions within de 100 KM limit distance
Avatar
Avatar
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸
I have posted pics of my hotspots reaching across Florida 3 times. Do you need me to REPEAT myself again? (edited)
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 04/12/2022 9:02 AM
Yes I would like to see also if you don’t mind sharing a hotspot name doesn’t have to be yours I’d love to check it out….
09:03
And not sending beacons
09:03
Thts easy
09:03
I’m talking hearing them from tht far out
Avatar
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸 04/12/2022 9:04 AM
I can post mine, but just like many, I have lost my witnesses. Salty Tartan Gerbil and Elegant Ruby Griffin. Both were set up to see if coast to coast reach was possible, then more hotspots will be added in the area circled above, so a network can be developed around the Florida Turnpike (edited)
09:05
09:05
Avatar
Avatar
Deleted User
i can see the main reason for this HIP , it's to fight against packet forwarders and gamers . but it won't change a thing . cat & mouse .....
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 04/12/2022 9:05 AM
Won’t stop ppl packet forwarding but at least the p2p witness thieves won’t be able to hack beacons from across the country….
Avatar
Avatar
Deleted User
yeah and they will put more around 1 and 2 and use more packet forwarders
Packet forwarders don't mean anything. The location is the asserted hotspot location, not the packet forwarder. You can put a packet forwarder 10 meters from a hotspot, if the cheating hotspot is asserted further than 100km, the witness will be invalid. Adding more hotspots means more investment on the cheater side. Hip58 will not stop cheaters, no one ever said that. But will be a roadblock for many
Avatar
Deleted User 04/12/2022 9:06 AM
yeah but you forgot that there is the past months mades tons of money 🙂
09:07
so not a real big deal for a 'group' to place another 20K order on hotspots
09:08
roadblocks will not scare a hummer 😄
09:09
can't we make just 200KM instead of 100 km ?
👎 1
Avatar
Guys believe it or not some clients I have, so far only 2 decided not to continue deploying in remote and bare areas. Those clients are people who are gonna use helium sensors (farmers). Unfortunately this hip58 won t help the expansion as I already see and said more times. You can believe in fairy tales I m fine with that but anyone playing within the rules and in fair way would be disappointed seeing sudden 10-15% drop in their rewards due to this hip58. And even worst gamers will cheat hip58 with some new tricks... Repeating myself won't help hip58 will pass and several miners will be penalized. Investments will. Expansion will. There is no bad to the network if a legit and legal and clean setup reach 180km. Go hit gamers. Don't hit all those clean setups👍
Avatar
Avatar
Stefz
Guys believe it or not some clients I have, so far only 2 decided not to continue deploying in remote and bare areas. Those clients are people who are gonna use helium sensors (farmers). Unfortunately this hip58 won t help the expansion as I already see and said more times. You can believe in fairy tales I m fine with that but anyone playing within the rules and in fair way would be disappointed seeing sudden 10-15% drop in their rewards due to this hip58. And even worst gamers will cheat hip58 with some new tricks... Repeating myself won't help hip58 will pass and several miners will be penalized. Investments will. Expansion will. There is no bad to the network if a legit and legal and clean setup reach 180km. Go hit gamers. Don't hit all those clean setups👍
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 04/12/2022 9:12 AM
Okay…
09:12
This hip won’t effect sensor covrage
👆 1
Avatar
Sensor coverage no. Miner deployment in certain areas yes
Avatar
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 04/12/2022 9:12 AM
Don’t believe for a second farmers care about hip58
09:12
They have wayy bigger issues to stress over
💯 1
Avatar
@Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) I know those people I work with them on a daily basis trust me or not
09:13
Your call my friend😉
09:14
If you wanna say my words are not to be taken seriously feel free I don't play this game. I gave reasons and motivation which are real and are happening right now. If people do not believe it s because they live in fairy tales and I m too old for them
Avatar
Avatar
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸
I can post mine, but just like many, I have lost my witnesses. Salty Tartan Gerbil and Elegant Ruby Griffin. Both were set up to see if coast to coast reach was possible, then more hotspots will be added in the area circled above, so a network can be developed around the Florida Turnpike (edited)
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 04/12/2022 9:14 AM
Bruh… you have had your hotspots setup for a month…
Avatar
Avatar
Stefz
@Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) I know those people I work with them on a daily basis trust me or not
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 04/12/2022 9:14 AM
These people don’t need to use this network if they have a big problem
Avatar
Avatar
Stefz
Sensor coverage no. Miner deployment in certain areas yes
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸 04/12/2022 9:14 AM
The farmers can't install sensors if there are no hotspots to read them
Avatar
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 04/12/2022 9:14 AM
Have you not seen the p2p witness theifs (edited)
Avatar
@Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) they use the network and wanna use their capabilities I told.you.this
Avatar
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 04/12/2022 9:15 AM
Our network will crumble if we don’t start patching leaks
Avatar
I explained myself 3 times
Avatar
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 04/12/2022 9:15 AM
This hip is a start
Avatar
Avatar
Stefz
@Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) they use the network and wanna use their capabilities I told.you.this
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 04/12/2022 9:15 AM
Yet you have yet to show any Etl data to back up what u are saying (edited)
Avatar
They use sensors like thermometer and weather stations...I m not gonna repeat and stress this out enough
Avatar
Avatar
Stefz
They use sensors like thermometer and weather stations...I m not gonna repeat and stress this out enough
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 04/12/2022 9:15 AM
COOL!
Avatar
Avatar
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions)
Bruh… you have had your hotspots setup for a month…
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸 04/12/2022 9:16 AM
So, what's your point? I have reviewed this area and plan for much longer. Am i not allowed to have an opinion because these hotspots are new here?
Avatar
@Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) they are crumbling miners who are clean and legit...not the gamers
Avatar
Avatar
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions)
Our network will crumble if we don’t start patching leaks
Deleted User 04/12/2022 9:16 AM
i tell this already since day 76 😄
Avatar
@Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 👍
Avatar
Deleted User 04/12/2022 9:16 AM
µit's like a company with critical holes still have open door day after 3 years
Avatar
Avatar
Deleted User
i tell this already since day 76 😄
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 04/12/2022 9:16 AM
What’s up my Belgium friend 👋
Avatar
Deleted User 04/12/2022 9:17 AM
but offcourse in beginning helium didn't care or look at it under the story of 'expanding / building ' network
Avatar
@Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) oh are you Belgian too?
Avatar
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 04/12/2022 9:17 AM
No from San Diego
Avatar
Avatar
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions)
What’s up my Belgium friend 👋
Deleted User 04/12/2022 9:17 AM
Hi Donald ! all good 🙂 there ?
🔥 1
Avatar
Lovely city San Diego say hello from me!
Avatar
Avatar
Deleted User
Hi Donald ! all good 🙂 there ?
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 04/12/2022 9:17 AM
Avatar
Catch some waves
☝️ 1
Avatar
Deleted User 04/12/2022 9:17 AM
they have good cactus there in san diego 😄
😂 1
Avatar
Deleted User 04/12/2022 9:17 AM
the Peyote 😄
😂 1
09:18
To be shared with the community this is what we do to improve the network
💯 1
👍 1
Avatar
Avatar
Stefz
Click to see attachment 🖼️
Deleted User 04/12/2022 9:18 AM
what cost this to build such one for me ? 😄
Avatar
@Deleted User it just survived 111kmh winds last week😉 👍
🤘 1
09:19
@Deleted User we do not build them abroad so far...maybe in future if rules won't change too much
09:20
2 built per.month in next 3 months if nothing changes
09:20
Oh sorry for that
Avatar
Original message was deleted or could not be loaded.
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 04/12/2022 9:21 AM
I once had a tree fall on one of my offgrids….
Avatar
I shared the picture to provide a clear proof of helium network usage with agricultural fields and farmers... Those installs will and could potentially be limited in the future.by.this hip
Avatar
Avatar
Stefz
To be shared with the community this is what we do to improve the network
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 04/12/2022 9:21 AM
Thts cute…
Avatar
Avatar
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions)
I once had a tree fall on one of my offgrids….
Deleted User 04/12/2022 9:21 AM
i guess you insurance those things or can put it in fire insurance ?
Avatar
@Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) don't tell me it s.hprrible feeling
09:21
Check this out
09:21
Avatar
Deleted User 04/12/2022 9:22 AM
on what price i need count for a offgrid setup in europe ?
Avatar
@Deleted User yes
Avatar
Deleted User 04/12/2022 9:22 AM
maybe need talk to some farmers here and ask to use some 1M2 of their land 😄
👍 1
Avatar
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸 04/12/2022 9:22 AM
Here is my next project. All farm land. Needing sensors. HIP58 can slow that process down. (edited)
Avatar
@Deleted User if you.go with fancy setups and marketing company who have no clue you pay a lot.. we build those out of engineers brain and technical skilled. Workers. We pay mych less but they are beasts
Avatar
Avatar
Stefz
Click to see attachment 🖼️
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 04/12/2022 9:23 AM
Avatar
Avatar
Deleted User
on what price i need count for a offgrid setup in europe ?
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 04/12/2022 9:23 AM
Depends on ur local area weather
Avatar
Deleted User 04/12/2022 9:23 AM
btw guys better remove this pics
09:23
before get muted or banned as it's not related to hip58 😄
kek 3
Avatar
Why?? They are gonna soon be RIP😉 👍 😩
Avatar
Avatar
Deleted User
before get muted or banned as it's not related to hip58 😄
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 04/12/2022 9:23 AM
These are legit setups
09:23
And we are talking hip 58
Avatar
Now i post the last one for inspiration which reached 205km far away witness and gets connectivity with uniquiti antenna from 5km away...last picture
09:24
Providing coverage to sensors with 50-60km.radius
09:25
Avatar
Avatar
Stefz
Now i post the last one for inspiration which reached 205km far away witness and gets connectivity with uniquiti antenna from 5km away...last picture
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 04/12/2022 9:26 AM
My farthest witness was 277km I’ve already posted it a bunch here
Avatar
Avatar
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions)
And we are talking hip 58
Deleted User 04/12/2022 9:26 AM
i speak out of expierence :p they mute me a lot haha
😂 3
Avatar
@Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) congratulations
Avatar
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 04/12/2022 9:26 AM
Again my setups are only getting the beacons sent out nerfed
Avatar
Deleted User 04/12/2022 9:27 AM
the nazi police you know 🙂
Avatar
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 04/12/2022 9:27 AM
I’m losing maybe like a dozen witnesses…
Avatar
I just wished to provide some real examples of remote areas deployment used with sensors by farmers 😉
Avatar
Avatar
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions)
Depends on ur local area weather
Deleted User 04/12/2022 9:27 AM
a lot of rain here in belgium 😦
09:27
not that much sun 😄
Avatar
Avatar
Deleted User
a lot of rain here in belgium 😦
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 04/12/2022 9:28 AM
Bad for OTG
09:28
U will need a lot of solar
09:28
Prly 200+ watts
09:28
And a big ass battery (edited)
09:28
60+ ah
Avatar
@Deleted User that installations are done for snowy weather...didn t switch off from September first
09:29
@Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 370w panel plus 100ah
09:29
I sent photo before😉
09:29
For more Infos DM me if you wish. Have a good one👍
Avatar
Avatar
Stefz
@Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 370w panel plus 100ah
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 04/12/2022 9:29 AM
Avatar
Avatar
Deleted User
the nazi police you know 🙂
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 04/12/2022 9:51 AM
Wait, who are you referring to?
Avatar
Avatar
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪
Wait, who are you referring to?
Deleted User 04/12/2022 10:04 AM
to nobody specific man don't worry , i just warned them that posting pic's here can be dangerous and can result in a mute ( speaking out of own expierence, that's all 🙂
10:04
gute laune !
Avatar
Avatar
Deleted User
to nobody specific man don't worry , i just warned them that posting pic's here can be dangerous and can result in a mute ( speaking out of own expierence, that's all 🙂
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 04/12/2022 10:04 AM
Ah alright, thanks for being a good citizen, you hit me up when someone needs a good muting 😉 (edited)
Avatar
Deleted User 04/12/2022 10:04 AM
or is the use of the word 'nazi police' also a crime ? if so i will change the word ... no want to offend someone 😉
Avatar
Avatar
Deleted User
or is the use of the word 'nazi police' also a crime ? if so i will change the word ... no want to offend someone 😉
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 04/12/2022 10:05 AM
I dunno, try calling a German nazi and find out Troll
👆 2
Avatar
Avatar
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸
I can post mine, but just like many, I have lost my witnesses. Salty Tartan Gerbil and Elegant Ruby Griffin. Both were set up to see if coast to coast reach was possible, then more hotspots will be added in the area circled above, so a network can be developed around the Florida Turnpike (edited)
Sorry, had an hour long meeting. You still look fine.
😂 1
😮 1
Avatar
Deleted User 04/12/2022 10:06 AM
and lewandowski scores 2 goals
10:06
placed a nice bet 😄
Avatar
Original message was deleted or could not be loaded.
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 04/12/2022 10:06 AM
I hate football, but you better stop with the off topic before i have to mute you again 💋
Avatar
Deleted User 04/12/2022 10:06 AM
ok sorry freund 🙂
👍 1
10:06
gute laune only !
Avatar
People would scramble for the transmit scale of that area in 1-2 years , if you don't take advantage of it now.
Avatar
How is this possible?
Avatar
@Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸 the location you posted seems really great and legit. On the eventuality hip58 will limit your witnessing distance it seems going a bit more NW is a good move...just speaking looking at the map without elevation or any LOS datas👍
Avatar
Where to read the official proposal? How to vote?
Avatar
Avatar
DragginBone
How is this possible?
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 04/12/2022 11:49 AM
P2P witness hacking….
11:49
Avatar
Avatar
up
When i set up antena 6dbi and i have loss of 1.2 dbi, should i insetr antena is 6.dbi or 4.8 dbi
It should be the net 6.0-1.2=4.8 Close is good enough.
Avatar
Is there any logical reason to vote in favor of this change ?
👍 2
22:27
It’s seems logical that extremely long range witnesses are trying to game the system instead of creating a denser network
👍 2
Avatar
Avatar
Stefz
Click to see attachment 🖼️
Are you Verizon ?
Avatar
Avatar
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸
Here is my next project. All farm land. Needing sensors. HIP58 can slow that process down. (edited)
Wouldn’t it speed it up by incentivizing at least a density of 1 tower every 100miles? I feel like if I can drive a couple hours between towers that’s not that dense
Avatar
NL_Miniterror_NL 04/14/2022 1:14 AM
As the vote is closed and obviously voted as yes when could we expect this to be activated? If i remember correct its just a simple var change and no code has to be implemented anymore
Avatar
Avatar
NL_Miniterror_NL
As the vote is closed and obviously voted as yes when could we expect this to be activated? If i remember correct its just a simple var change and no code has to be implemented anymore
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 04/14/2022 1:27 AM
Well it's middle of the night at Nova Labs HQ, so I guess a couple of hours from now?
Avatar
Avatar
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪
Well it's middle of the night at Nova Labs HQ, so I guess a couple of hours from now?
Sleep when you're dead. 🙃
kek 1
Avatar
@Watz Up Doc not at all in my country it s not present but as company we are working to try to implement asap helium 5g technology once available in the correct frequency. In the meanwhile we are securing key locations to place the devices (edited)
Avatar
Avatar
Watz Up Doc
Wouldn’t it speed it up by incentivizing at least a density of 1 tower every 100miles? I feel like if I can drive a couple hours between towers that’s not that dense
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸 04/14/2022 3:34 AM
Now that this has passed, people, like myself that are trying to expand the network into bare (important) areas, will need to invest in more hotspots and have a much longer ROI. I certainly hope this HIP stops, or drastically slows down gaming, for longer than a day or so, because it will definatley slow down the plans of those still expanding the network. (edited)
👍 1
Avatar
@Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸 unfortunately your statement is agreeable and it s happening already even with some of my clients...hope it won't affect too much or slow down too much the expansion in the mentioned bare areas where investments are definitely needed to expand network (edited)
Avatar
Avatar
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸
Now that this has passed, people, like myself that are trying to expand the network into bare (important) areas, will need to invest in more hotspots and have a much longer ROI. I certainly hope this HIP stops, or drastically slows down gaming, for longer than a day or so, because it will definatley slow down the plans of those still expanding the network. (edited)
Got 100 sensecaps that need homes, maybe you guys could host? That way we can speed up thr network expansion! Win Win. Otherwise not sure what you mean by you have to invest more, wouldn't a deeper dive into DD if that location will earn according to your expectations, instead of just putting it in the middle of nowhere hoping for the best with under 100km will solve this? (edited)
💯 1
Avatar
Avatar
Fizzy
Got 100 sensecaps that need homes, maybe you guys could host? That way we can speed up thr network expansion! Win Win. Otherwise not sure what you mean by you have to invest more, wouldn't a deeper dive into DD if that location will earn according to your expectations, instead of just putting it in the middle of nowhere hoping for the best with under 100km will solve this? (edited)
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸 04/14/2022 7:53 AM
I appreciate you trying to help, or understand what I am saying. We have talked about this extensively. If the newly placed hotspots can not reach the established areas, then more hotspots will need to be installed closer to each other right away, so some rewards can be earned. Instead of being able to roll rewards over to purchasing more hotspots, people will need to purchase several at a time, significantly increasing the initial investment. And because they can only witness to each other initially, ROI will take longer. This HIP will completely change the business plans for people that were already planning on expanding to these areas. As far as your sensecaps, I may be interested in purchasing, but not hosting, as now the rewards will be even less initially and each spot will cost $500-750 to set up (not including Hotspot costs)
Avatar
@Fizzy my friend with hip58 the fleet of 22 miners my company is managing will have a decrease in earnings coming from long range witnessing (more than 100km) averaging from 7-15%. One hotspot particularly surprises me cause is doing around 16% witnessing coming from above 100km (those are on top of towers providing connectivity to nearby cities, town, and agriculture areas near the towers... Those kind of deployments will have some impact and I can unfortunately testify that some of our clients (mainly farmers who like to deploy and use sensors for their activities) started to be very reluctant to expand further for now. Hope this will change with time
👍 1
Avatar
Avatar
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸
I appreciate you trying to help, or understand what I am saying. We have talked about this extensively. If the newly placed hotspots can not reach the established areas, then more hotspots will need to be installed closer to each other right away, so some rewards can be earned. Instead of being able to roll rewards over to purchasing more hotspots, people will need to purchase several at a time, significantly increasing the initial investment. And because they can only witness to each other initially, ROI will take longer. This HIP will completely change the business plans for people that were already planning on expanding to these areas. As far as your sensecaps, I may be interested in purchasing, but not hosting, as now the rewards will be even less initially and each spot will cost $500-750 to set up (not including Hotspot costs)
That makes sense but won’t this incentivize more individuals to invest rather than a few people gobbling up all the ability to provide coverage. I would rather 10 farm owners own 1 miner each than 1 person own 10 miners and force all 10 farm owners to pay to connect to that persons network
10:07
Like I want network expansion but not at the expense of decreasing incentives for more individuals to invest in this technology themselves and eventually using the network
10:08
Sounds like this incentivizes people telling their neighbors 50km away to set up a hotspot rather than keeping them in the dark about the opportunity
Avatar
Avatar
Stefz
@Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸 unfortunately your statement is agreeable and it s happening already even with some of my clients...hope it won't affect too much or slow down too much the expansion in the mentioned bare areas where investments are definitely needed to expand network (edited)
I guess this is just me but I don’t like the idea of people setting up companies to expand the network. It’s called the people’s network. I want to see it expanding because individuals buy equipment to turn their hex on and connect devices to the network and get the equipment to roi just for themselves.
Avatar
Avatar
Watz Up Doc
Like I want network expansion but not at the expense of decreasing incentives for more individuals to invest in this technology themselves and eventually using the network
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸 04/14/2022 10:14 AM
Just like thousands have done, those "farmers" may know nothing about Helium, or crypto, but would be willing to be a host. There are hundreds that have hundreds of hosts. Are you saying that those that have not already set up hosts should not set up hosts anymore? That people should set up their own miners, only? Plus, while Farm land in Michigan is on my adjenda, (much of which is in my family to begin with), my actions in Florida have little to do with public land. But state owned land has an interest in having people like me set up hotspots. So, that puts me back to my original concerns. I am not the only person in the world with this concern.
Avatar
Avatar
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸
Just like thousands have done, those "farmers" may know nothing about Helium, or crypto, but would be willing to be a host. There are hundreds that have hundreds of hosts. Are you saying that those that have not already set up hosts should not set up hosts anymore? That people should set up their own miners, only? Plus, while Farm land in Michigan is on my adjenda, (much of which is in my family to begin with), my actions in Florida have little to do with public land. But state owned land has an interest in having people like me set up hotspots. So, that puts me back to my original concerns. I am not the only person in the world with this concern.
So I guess I’m saying if farmers don’t know about crypto and mining I think the best thing for the network is to increase awareness of the opportunity and get them to set it up themselves. It’s like knowing there is oil under a farmer and buying their mineral rights for cheap before people understood what oil was. It’s borderline predatory and goes against the ethos of distributed network for the people by the people.
Avatar
Avatar
Watz Up Doc
I guess this is just me but I don’t like the idea of people setting up companies to expand the network. It’s called the people’s network. I want to see it expanding because individuals buy equipment to turn their hex on and connect devices to the network and get the equipment to roi just for themselves.
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸 04/14/2022 10:17 AM
Plus, how many people started out as hosts, then purchased the set up from the owner once they wanted to get involved. Nothing wrong with that either. Bottom line, the network gets built in these areas. I want to help, but I would like to be compensated and I surely don't want to lose money setting it up.
Avatar
Avatar
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸
Plus, how many people started out as hosts, then purchased the set up from the owner once they wanted to get involved. Nothing wrong with that either. Bottom line, the network gets built in these areas. I want to help, but I would like to be compensated and I surely don't want to lose money setting it up.
Maybe sell your services as “hey I’ll acquire the hardware and set it up but you pay me my costs plus a fee for my time/l able/knowledge “ then you don’t have any roi timeframe to worry about. You can get them a 3rd party bank loan and charge a fee for facilitating that too.
10:19
You don’t have to own the oil, you can sell the system that drills the oil and the team that installs the drill
10:20
Plus more people understanding, setting up, and using helium will mean more awareness and more expansion of the helium network
10:21
If you can’t make money because of this change you’re just trying to be a landlord essentially instead of helping enable the freeing of people from the grips of the telecom industries power
10:22
Like the more individual helium mining owners the more people will believe in the network and push it forward.
Avatar
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸 04/14/2022 10:34 AM
Why would anyone open a car wash, or a restaurant? People can wash their own cars, or cook their own food at home. Why have a landscape business? People can mow their own lawns. Why do anything in business? The bottom line is there is a large market of hosts out there that are perfectly happy getting a percentage and not having to out of pocket the set up costs, or maintain it. It seems to me if the option to purchase the setup exists, then there is no monopoly. There are people out there with 800+ miners and your busting my balls because I want to invest in several around me and my family and a HIP was just passed that will make it more difficult for me (and others) to do. (edited)
👍 1
trump 1
Avatar
To be totally honest I feel this discussion has no points. The company i m running exists since 15 years ago and I m not going to promote it here, and it installs radio devices and employes several people engineers and technicians. I m not sure if I understood well, but it s absolutely a normal thing, to provide a service to some clients who requests it... Still it s people s network and this channel should stay focused on pros and cons of hip58
Avatar
Avatar
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸
Why would anyone open a car wash, or a restaurant? People can wash their own cars, or cook their own food at home. Why have a landscape business? People can mow their own lawns. Why do anything in business? The bottom line is there is a large market of hosts out there that are perfectly happy getting a percentage and not having to out of pocket the set up costs, or maintain it. It seems to me if the option to purchase the setup exists, then there is no monopoly. There are people out there with 800+ miners and your busting my balls because I want to invest in several around me and my family and a HIP was just passed that will make it more difficult for me (and others) to do. (edited)
I think there too will be new people from today, and for years to come that will be just as ready to put up a hotspot. And while you may have the "I am not making as much as I did" mentality, they will not have those blockers into putting up as much as they can, because they now know, that next day, they may not earn as much as they once did.
👍 1
11:29
Perspective I guess. If you want to tap out, tap out and retire from deploying. The network will go on, and there will be new people that will jump in no matter what time it is in the project.
💯 3
Avatar
Avatar
Fizzy
Perspective I guess. If you want to tap out, tap out and retire from deploying. The network will go on, and there will be new people that will jump in no matter what time it is in the project.
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸 04/14/2022 12:05 PM
Unbelievable! All I am trying to do is present a side to this debate that is being overlooked. The vote is over. HIP 58 passed. All I have seen on this post for days is how it is okay to limit what once wasn't limited. To restrict what once wasn't restricted. To hinder what once wasn't hindered. All anyone has told me (and others) here is if you won't, someone else might. But I have yet to have someone show me how this will slow down the cheaters. We all know they will adjust. There must be other ways to catch them, outside of limiting the rewards for people still trying to expand the network. One thing I have noticed is cheaters are able to witness every 2 minutes or so. Can't that be regulated? I have witnessed, or performed rewardable actions every 30-45 minutes on my best day. You all think my arguments were about me. You think I am just greedy. If anyone cares, they can see viable concerns expressed by many of us over the last several days. How about just admitting that it WILL hurt some. Admit that it won't stop the cheaters, it won't even slow them down. Never mind, you don't have to admit any of that. The network will prove it. BTW. I'm not going to stop my efforts in expanding. I was just expressing my right to show my concerns. While I failed to show the wrongs that will happen, the results of the HIP will show it. There is no more debate. It passed. Now this post can be left open for people to complain about how it's not working, and how expansion in bare areas has slowed or stopped. Seriously, I wish all here the best.
Avatar
Rules changed in an unexpected way, and also unfair to many hotspots owners which planned and did some investments. Honestly speaking and probably people will hate me for that, cheaters exist and will always exist and majority of them have a huge and deep knowledge of the system (some could even be IN the system...). However time will tell if hip58 will slowdown expanding the network in certain areas (bare and more remote). So far I provided some datas, concerns and feedback from the field that should or could produce some kind of deeper analysis if hip58 was really a good move or better said a good method to stop cheaters..contributions is key to the development of a project. I did my part. Regardless what others think. Time will tell
Avatar
Avatar
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸
Unbelievable! All I am trying to do is present a side to this debate that is being overlooked. The vote is over. HIP 58 passed. All I have seen on this post for days is how it is okay to limit what once wasn't limited. To restrict what once wasn't restricted. To hinder what once wasn't hindered. All anyone has told me (and others) here is if you won't, someone else might. But I have yet to have someone show me how this will slow down the cheaters. We all know they will adjust. There must be other ways to catch them, outside of limiting the rewards for people still trying to expand the network. One thing I have noticed is cheaters are able to witness every 2 minutes or so. Can't that be regulated? I have witnessed, or performed rewardable actions every 30-45 minutes on my best day. You all think my arguments were about me. You think I am just greedy. If anyone cares, they can see viable concerns expressed by many of us over the last several days. How about just admitting that it WILL hurt some. Admit that it won't stop the cheaters, it won't even slow them down. Never mind, you don't have to admit any of that. The network will prove it. BTW. I'm not going to stop my efforts in expanding. I was just expressing my right to show my concerns. While I failed to show the wrongs that will happen, the results of the HIP will show it. There is no more debate. It passed. Now this post can be left open for people to complain about how it's not working, and how expansion in bare areas has slowed or stopped. Seriously, I wish all here the best.
All I am trying to do is present a side to this debate that is being overlooked
I don't think it was overlooked. HIP58 is just trying to fix a flaw in POC. The flaw was that POC rewards were being distributed to hotspots reaching distances that sensors cannot reach (and the objective of the network is sensors, not POC itself). And that flaw was being exploited by gamers. Yes, some people will be bitten because hotspots will not be able to reach other hotspots above 100km, yes it will make some people not deploy hotspots farther than 100km from others because they will not be able to witness them, but that shouldn't have been possible in the first place. The network expansion should still happen anyway because of hip15 and hip17.
We all know they will adjust
They can adjust a bit yes by reasserting the location, but they will still be limited in distance and will not be able to witness as much.
(edited)
💯 1
Avatar
Avatar
ricopt5
All I am trying to do is present a side to this debate that is being overlooked
I don't think it was overlooked. HIP58 is just trying to fix a flaw in POC. The flaw was that POC rewards were being distributed to hotspots reaching distances that sensors cannot reach (and the objective of the network is sensors, not POC itself). And that flaw was being exploited by gamers. Yes, some people will be bitten because hotspots will not be able to reach other hotspots above 100km, yes it will make some people not deploy hotspots farther than 100km from others because they will not be able to witness them, but that shouldn't have been possible in the first place. The network expansion should still happen anyway because of hip15 and hip17.
We all know they will adjust
They can adjust a bit yes by reasserting the location, but they will still be limited in distance and will not be able to witness as much.
(edited)
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸 04/14/2022 12:41 PM
What about regulating witnessing every 2 minutes? That is how they get so much HNT. And... Once again... If there are no hotspots in an area, sensors won't get read. It's not about building 'past' the readability of the sensors. It's about giving them something to read. I am new to this network. I thoroughly educated myself prior to putting a business plan together. I installed 2 Hotspots to make sure they would reach east and west as planned, and now I am working to install more. All prior to this HIP being introduced. I haven't even got my return of investment back on my initial installs. Lol I have no hard feelings. I understand HIPs are here to help. And if this doesnt work as we voted it would, then it can be revised. (edited)
Avatar
Carl-bot BOT 04/14/2022 12:41 PM
Discussion on ROI is not allowed on this server, please see #rules.
Avatar
The limit of Witnessing Will be 100km* so will these witnesses ABOVE 100km be added, but invalid or Will these not be choosen by the blockchain?
Avatar
Avatar
CryptoBoyz
The limit of Witnessing Will be 100km* so will these witnesses ABOVE 100km be added, but invalid or Will these not be choosen by the blockchain?
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸 04/14/2022 12:45 PM
I know they will be marked as invalid, so they may show, but called invalid. That would be good info to hang on to for people wanting to prove their case for lost rewards while trying to expand. Good point. Thanks for bringing it up. 👍
👍 2
Avatar
Avatar
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸
What about regulating witnessing every 2 minutes? That is how they get so much HNT. And... Once again... If there are no hotspots in an area, sensors won't get read. It's not about building 'past' the readability of the sensors. It's about giving them something to read. I am new to this network. I thoroughly educated myself prior to putting a business plan together. I installed 2 Hotspots to make sure they would reach east and west as planned, and now I am working to install more. All prior to this HIP being introduced. I haven't even got my return of investment back on my initial installs. Lol I have no hard feelings. I understand HIPs are here to help. And if this doesnt work as we voted it would, then it can be revised. (edited)
For that first sentence. #hip-42-beacon-witness-ratio-witness-reward-limit
💯 2
Avatar
Avatar
Fizzy
For that first sentence. #hip-42-beacon-witness-ratio-witness-reward-limit
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸 04/14/2022 1:05 PM
Thank you. If it's a current approved HIP then why does it still happen? Is it that they can't prevent it, but can put you on deny list if caught? I'll look for 42 and read it. Thanks
Avatar
Avatar
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸
Thank you. If it's a current approved HIP then why does it still happen? Is it that they can't prevent it, but can put you on deny list if caught? I'll look for 42 and read it. Thanks
I do not think it has been voted on. So it has not been implemented. The reason why is most likely that it does not have code. This, hip58, already had code, and all that needed to be done was to flip the switch and set a number. (edited)
Avatar
To whom do I complain about none of my hotspots earning less because this HIP was implemented two hours ago?
😆 2
13:09
I want to see management...it actually kind of looks like I am making a little bit more.
13:10
I can't take this any more. This feeling I have that I should install more hotspots about 10-30 km away from other hotspots. Anyone know what this feeling is called?
Avatar
It would be nice if a witness over 100km never hits the 12 witness list. Now these witnesses that are too far away take opportunity from someone else from making it on the 12.
Avatar
Carl-bot BOT 04/14/2022 1:13 PM
Witnesses are informational and based on a rolling 5-day period of successful Proof-of-Coverage witness receipts. The list also resets if a Hotspot updates location, changes antenna, or elevation. Read more here: https://docs.helium.com/troubleshooting/understanding-witnesses
Witnesses on the Helium network are Hotspots that have seen (or witnessed) a Proof-of-Coverage packet from a Hotspot. This single-stage Proof-of-Coverage challenge is also known as a "Beacon".
Avatar
Avatar
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸
Thank you. If it's a current approved HIP then why does it still happen? Is it that they can't prevent it, but can put you on deny list if caught? I'll look for 42 and read it. Thanks
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/14/2022 1:14 PM
There was a "temperature check" vote only so far. Since that passed, the author has been working on the code for it. 🙂 After the coding is done, the real vote will happen.
Avatar
Avatar
SaintOlav
It would be nice if a witness over 100km never hits the 12 witness list. Now these witnesses that are too far away take opportunity from someone else from making it on the 12.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/14/2022 1:16 PM
It was left that way for data purposes so the chainvar can be adjusted if needed.
Avatar
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸 04/14/2022 1:16 PM
Thank you. If this is implemented, then I feel it will go much further in stopping cheaters.
Avatar
Avatar
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸
Thank you. If this is implemented, then I feel it will go much further in stopping cheaters.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/14/2022 1:17 PM
Yeah, 42 and 44 are great HIPs for stopping the type of cheating you mentioned. 🙂
Avatar
Avatar
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸
Thank you. If this is implemented, then I feel it will go much further in stopping cheaters.
For data purposes there should be no limit on distance.. this 100km limit should be PoC only.
13:17
Lets say only one hotspot heard a packet from far away.. it should not be blocked.
13:18
that would be silly.
Avatar
Avatar
SaintOlav
For data purposes there should be no limit on distance.. this 100km limit should be PoC only.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/14/2022 1:18 PM
Correct. This only applies to POC distance.
Avatar
Very nice. 💥
🔥 8
🥳 3
Avatar
Avatar
Joey
Very nice. 💥
That's nice to see
Avatar
Avatar
Joey
Very nice. 💥
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/14/2022 5:12 PM
An effect on cheaters?? 🤯
17:13
18:07
Sounds like the network didn’t end either as I was told it would on Twitter.
🤣 2
Avatar
but, but, but, the .01% totally legit miners with "premium setups" are being severly impacted, how are they every supposed to ROI . . . . /s
👍 1
😆 1
Avatar
Thats very bad. There is no denylist between 100-200 km So distance can start at 200. 100 km is too low. Please change the distance
🧐 1
👍 1
🤨 1
Avatar
no denylist between 100-200km ??
18:44
huh
Avatar
Avatar
Joey
Very nice. 💥
Static Laws 04/14/2022 6:45 PM
Well done
Avatar
Avatar
Bcagatay53
Thats very bad. There is no denylist between 100-200 km So distance can start at 200. 100 km is too low. Please change the distance
It's done.
Avatar
Avatar
Joey
Very nice. 💥
Really nice. But my honest opinion this limit/filter should be applied during the lottery system and be removed from the random list, there would be valid hs that would provide proper poc and get rewarded for it. So basically, they are still affecting hs witnessing for hs that are around of them.
thistbh 1
Avatar
Just checking the new hip58. As.anticipated miners installed on towers started to got hit... In the last 8 hours one of them got 4 invalid witnesses at more than 100km. Earnings will decrease! Those installs are not gamers hotspots...but still got pretty much hit
21:22
Congrats to hip 58
21:28
It could be a good move to raise the limit at 200km due to fact many legit miners in pretty high locations with a proper antenna can reach easily farer than 100km
👎 1
Avatar
Avatar
BiggieJohn
but, but, but, the .01% totally legit miners with "premium setups" are being severly impacted, how are they every supposed to ROI . . . . /s
Ranging from 7-15% running some numbers...that's pretty severe
Avatar
well that sems a lot higher then the prdicted fromspoofers/gamers only
22:29
hopefully someone is looking at data, might need to reevaluate if 100km as way too low if its affecting that many legit hotspots
Avatar
Avatar
BiggieJohn
hopefully someone is looking at data, might need to reevaluate if 100km as way too low if its affecting that many legit hotspots
You think that the data of the last 60 days is suddenly going to change the minute the change is activated?
👆 1
Avatar
was 7-15% drop rate predicted for valid hotspots ?
22:31
sorry misinterpreting that
22:32
7-15% of hotspots being affected by the new limit
Avatar
< 1% of the witnesses will be invalidated, that was expected and the numbers I ran last night a few hours after the chain var went through showed similar numbers. Not sure where you got that 7-15% figure, but I'd love to see the data.
Avatar
I'd still love to see a comment on why >100km is not tossed out and a new witness is chosen to be valid. This seems like a big flaw, and my pin statement in here is now a lie because it not working the way I want. :< lol (edited)
Avatar
Avatar
Fizzy
I'd still love to see a comment on why >100km is not tossed out and a new witness is chosen to be valid. This seems like a big flaw, and my pin statement in here is now a lie because it not working the way I want. :< lol (edited)
Several reasons, one is that code change required, second is that tossing everything > 100k means no data is available if you ever want to change it.
👆 1
Avatar
Avatar
groot
< 1% of the witnesses will be invalidated, that was expected and the numbers I ran last night a few hours after the chain var went through showed similar numbers. Not sure where you got that 7-15% figure, but I'd love to see the data.
that was from @Stefz I was jsut commenting that seemed much higher then expected
Avatar
Avatar
BiggieJohn
that was from @Stefz I was jsut commenting that seemed much higher then expected
I can cherry pick a few hotspots and make it look like an enormous problem. The facts are that those setups were unlikely to provide coverage for sensors and were rewarded for it regardless. One of the issues he has are due to the fact that Italy is a narrow country surrounded by bodies of water that make it easy to travel far. So it might be true he is disproportionately affected, I'm not going to deny that since he has yet to provide any addresses/data for me to check. On the population as a whole the original numbers still seem to hold (unsurprisingly as setups don't change out of the blue just because you change a chain var).
Avatar
Avatar
groot
Several reasons, one is that code change required, second is that tossing everything > 100k means no data is available if you ever want to change it.
Well yeah. 1, sure, but I figured that would be a no brainer, but I guess brains where not at that meeting. Cuz this is going to cause a right big stew as all the nay sayers get proven right. Not only are their earnings go down, but now my short range hotspot is still losing out a witness from a guy in a tower, and now that witness slot is tossed out, when it could have been given to me. 2., data can still be accrued. does it have to be on-chain? either way, as stated above, those gawd dam tower setups are now stealing what could have been my valid witnesses and making them invalid witnesses, rabble rabble rabble (edited)
Avatar
Avatar
Fizzy
Well yeah. 1, sure, but I figured that would be a no brainer, but I guess brains where not at that meeting. Cuz this is going to cause a right big stew as all the nay sayers get proven right. Not only are their earnings go down, but now my short range hotspot is still losing out a witness from a guy in a tower, and now that witness slot is tossed out, when it could have been given to me. 2., data can still be accrued. does it have to be on-chain? either way, as stated above, those gawd dam tower setups are now stealing what could have been my valid witnesses and making them invalid witnesses, rabble rabble rabble (edited)
The witnesses you do get are rewarded more (due to the invalids), so in the long run there is no difference between invalidating and dropping. (edited)
Avatar
@BiggieJohn I run a company which manage a fleet of 22 hotspots belonging to our clients. We used the simulation tool provided by Groot to run some numbers and in the last 60-90 days (we tried both options) the reduction averaged from a.minimum of 7 to a maximum of 15% per miner. This morning I can testify that one specific miner in the last 8-9 hours had 4 invalid witnesses above 100km
22:48
@groot I run that numbers couple of.days ago through your app if you remember
Avatar
Avatar
groot
The witnesses you do get are rewarded more (due to the invalids), so in the long run there is no difference between invalidating and dropping. (edited)
lol well that is true, but only a fraction of the many variables. Its like saying to leave the nail in the tire, because less air will leak out.
Avatar
Avatar
Stefz
@groot I run that numbers couple of.days ago through your app if you remember
That's not something I can verify though is it, but I have ran numbers on Italy as a whole and that is where those assumptions about the bodies of water came from.
Avatar
60 and 90 days limit I applied
22:50
@groot unfortunately here there is no water involved it s just locations on top of hills providing coverage in the surrounding but which sometimes reach pretty far above 100km...
22:50
@groot don't worry I run that numbers with the fleet of miners my company is managing and I provided some results as you know averaging from 7 to 15%
22:51
You app Groot is well done, but as proof of hip58 hitting pretty hard as said before in the last 8-9 hours one of our setup (miner) got 4 invalid witnesses
Avatar
They are in Italy though? I'll find how many are above 5% and we'll go from that 🙂
Avatar
Do you want me to provide a 16% reduction so you scream instead of me?😉
22:52
I have no need to provide false data
Avatar
To my hotspot you mean? I couldn't care less to be honest, if I get cut from rewards I shouldn't have had in the first place I would be happy I got what I already got and look to improve my setup for more local coverage in the future..
💯 1
Avatar
And yes we are in italy
22:55
My friend those setups are customer setups.we did already few months ago through site survey and planification as already explained. This change in rule (hip58) is hitting those installations...
22:56
No, I didn't mean that I want your hotspot setup, I mean if you want me to provide some.real numbers cause there is this lack of trust here...for no reason actually
22:57
But If you go check my previous messages couple of days ago we already spoke about it, after using your simulation app. I m just adding on top of that the fact that in last 8-9 hours one miner got already 4 invalid witnesses so I can say hip 58 is real!
Avatar
Let me be clear that it has nothing to do with trusting you, it's not that I don't trust you, it's that in this blockchain project that is based on a zero-trust model I don't trust anyone. I like things I can verify, if you have followed this channel from day one you would've seen that I also challenged hashc0de on his numbers 😉 (edited)
Avatar
And personally I dislike this false statements that some miners get hit less than 1%... I run numbers and some miners got hit from 7 to 15% of invalid witnesses above 100km
22:59
Thanks for the trust @groot
Avatar
Avatar
Stefz
And personally I dislike this false statements that some miners get hit less than 1%... I run numbers and some miners got hit from 7 to 15% of invalid witnesses above 100km
Never made those statements, on average miners are hit far less than 1%. That statement is a fact as shown by ample evidence.
Avatar
I put some numbers here
23:00
@groot oh yes average miner with standard antenna inside home totally agree😉
23:00
Wait a second I put some numbers:
Avatar
Avatar
Stefz
@groot oh yes average miner with standard antenna inside home totally agree😉
Even far above average miners are, while obviously hit, not by a lot as also shown by evidence.
Avatar
90 days period
23:04
236 witnesses above 100km.out of a total of 2119 witnesses
23:04
This is one installation that got hit around 10% checking with your Etl app👍
23:05
Time for me to go work, have a good one everybody!
23:10
And this is photo of installation site
23:10
Avatar
Next hip: Invalid Witness: witness too far witness too close witness too in the middle witness should not exist whatever 😦
🙄 1
Avatar
Avatar
Stefz
236 witnesses above 100km.out of a total of 2119 witnesses
You keep complaining about >100km witnesses; I don't understand why. Such witnessing are no use to the network. They should not be rewarded. I have 30 hotspots, all very well placed. Generally make 3-5 times network average. All but three are custom-installed to maximize coverage. I am good at what I do. All but two have gone up an oddly large amount today since the HIP was implemented. An increase is what is expected; what surprises me is how much I noticed today. My empathy for your witnesses being dropped is bordering on negative; you do understand that as all of these invalids are not rewarded, the counter action is that all of the other rewards increase because fewer tokens were handed out due to the invalids and especially due to the gamers, er, cheating fucks not stealing as many tokens from us? And I don't think you have any moral high ground arguing with Groot about the data. He (or she, I don't know) has asked you to give him/her a hotspot name so that he/she can evaluate your situation but you refuse to give it to him/her. Give it to him/her privately; we don't need to know what it is. If your statements are true about how awfully you are affected, he/she will surely support your statements. (edited)
Avatar
Avatar
Stefz
And this is photo of installation site
How tall is that antenna mast? And this one is one that is on a mountain really far from any other hotspots?
Avatar
so seems that it started...Invalid Witness: witness_too_far
23:51
already two in a matter of minutes
👆 1
Avatar
Avatar
Stefz
236 witnesses above 100km.out of a total of 2119 witnesses
Another thing I don't understand about your stance; looking at Italy on the explorer, I can't find anywhere that is further than 100km from at least one other hotspot. Why are you not just progressing further and further away from an existing hotspot cluster? If you are leap frogging to create another cluster, then you can't expect to hit other hotspots until you build up a working cluster. Who told you that you could expect rewards in the middle of nowhere?
Avatar
The mapping data in Italy, while limited, doesn't really show huge distances being achieved by sensors. I might look into combining the etl data with the data from mappers.helium.com to see if any of those greatly affected hotspots ever transmitted mapper data over significant distances.
Avatar
Avatar
KeithR
You keep complaining about >100km witnesses; I don't understand why. Such witnessing are no use to the network. They should not be rewarded. I have 30 hotspots, all very well placed. Generally make 3-5 times network average. All but three are custom-installed to maximize coverage. I am good at what I do. All but two have gone up an oddly large amount today since the HIP was implemented. An increase is what is expected; what surprises me is how much I noticed today. My empathy for your witnesses being dropped is bordering on negative; you do understand that as all of these invalids are not rewarded, the counter action is that all of the other rewards increase because fewer tokens were handed out due to the invalids and especially due to the gamers, er, cheating fucks not stealing as many tokens from us? And I don't think you have any moral high ground arguing with Groot about the data. He (or she, I don't know) has asked you to give him/her a hotspot name so that he/she can evaluate your situation but you refuse to give it to him/her. Give it to him/her privately; we don't need to know what it is. If your statements are true about how awfully you are affected, he/she will surely support your statements. (edited)
I can't believe how many pronouns I use in a sentence. Gets messy quickly not knowing how someone wishes to be addressed.
00:03
If helium think this is ok..
Avatar
Avatar
r00t1ng
Click to see attachment 🖼️
Looks like you might need to add to your cluster of hotspots.
Avatar
I paid a lot of money rent for this location
00:04
For what ?
00:04
For helium think this will stop the gamers ?
Avatar
Avatar
r00t1ng
I paid a lot of money rent for this location
Sorry. Did helium tell you to do that? Lol
👍 1
👆 1
Avatar
I got one today on my hotspot that covers over 8000 square kilometers. Still made 0.54 token today. (edited)
Avatar
Avatar
KeithR
I got one today on my hotspot that covers over 8000 square kilometers. Still made 0.54 token today. (edited)
What kind of surprises me is that the SF based company acknowledged that metric units are better😂
😆 1
Avatar
km is standard, miles not really
🙄 1
Avatar
(Not really, just joking. Metric units divide a lot nicer)
Avatar
I have been waiting for the metric system since they told me "soon" back in 1978.
👆 1
Avatar
i will say goodbye to my good witnesses from Bulgaria and Serbia :))
00:08
they should take down them directionals
Avatar
I hope someone has "marked" which hotspots had a preponderance of >100km witnessing and will be monitoring what they do next as a result of this HIP.
Avatar
Avatar
KeithR
I hope someone has "marked" which hotspots had a preponderance of >100km witnessing and will be monitoring what they do next as a result of this HIP.
You know there are 5M witness receipts a day right? The etl already hates me as it is, let alone when I go hammer it for every witness.
Avatar
Avatar
groot
You know there are 5M witness receipts a day right? The etl already hates me as it is, let alone when I go hammer it for every witness.
I really want to set up my own ETL so that I can completely geek out on data analyses. There are so many facets of this project that need to be explored and described with data to be used to drive further expansion. (edited)
Avatar
Avatar
KeithR
I really want to set up my own ETL so that I can completely geek out on data analyses. There are so many facets of this project that need to be explored and described with data to be used to drive further expansion. (edited)
You need some non standard hardware, especially on storage, huge nvme disks are expensive.
Avatar
Avatar
groot
You need some non standard hardware, especially on storage, huge nvme disks are expensive.
I have a small server farm, so it wouldn't be out of line with what I have. The issue is that I have too many other things that are more important than satisfying my data interests.
Avatar
Avatar
KeithR
I hope someone has "marked" which hotspots had a preponderance of >100km witnessing and will be monitoring what they do next as a result of this HIP.
Helium Explorer is a Block Explorer and Analytics Platform for Helium, a decentralized wireless connectivity platform
00:26
you cant blame him 🙂
00:26
he covers three countries
00:27
Helium Explorer is a Block Explorer and Analytics Platform for Helium, a decentralized wireless connectivity platform
00:28
and i witness them often, oh well.. they should lower the dbi
00:29
because i wont 😀
Avatar
If they lower the dBi and not witness you anymore, no reward for that witness. If they don't lower it, your witness is invalid, no reward for that witness. Does it really matter which one it is?
Avatar
was more of a joke
00:32
there is no point to change the setup
00:32
i am high, he is also most likely
00:33
i go with 12-15dbi omnis and 11dbi directionals
00:33
in theory can reach the moon
Avatar
In theory you can reach Mars, just depending on how good the receiver is
Avatar
yea, cant complain, unfortunately i cant provide coverage over 100km
00:36
in real world usage
00:36
a dog collar or tag etc, no way has the power to reach me
00:37
or even a water/gas meter that uses lora (edited)
Avatar
no point being able to read a gas meter from another country
Avatar
that makes sense :))
Avatar
and what about lake\sea?
Avatar
@KeithR read my messages carefully before expressing opinions I didn't say. Regarding Groot I told him that I can DM him some datas I didn't receive an answer but I provided some numbers for the community to be seen. I honestly don t care if someone likes or not what I state because I m not here the convince anyone or to make friends. I put some numbers that anyone can see. Still regarding your sentences about our company installing on the middle of nowhere it s not at all like that, those are clients location which provide a good and not affected by HIP58 coverage in the around areas because the main goal for those clients is to use helium to have coverage on their sensors. The farer witnesses are something which was unexpected from the begin but still when people see those rewards and all of a sudden see a cut of them we can not say that people will be happy. And my statements were strongly to address what in GitHub is said which is totally false: few hotspot will have a not noticeable reduction. I don't call 7 to 15% on several miners a not noticeable drop. Just for your information, as wrote already 3 times, just checked one miner randomly and it lost in the last night 4 witnessing from farer than 100km, so guess if people could be happy or not. I m not here to create any discussion just providing data which I provided. Do not ask me again to provide wallet address or miner address cause they belong to client and i m not authorised to reveal. Numbers I put should be enough
Avatar
is it legit
Avatar
Could Def be
Avatar
Avatar
valeek
is it legit
No. Bouncing off the water is unreliable. Awesome as heck that it makes it most of the time; but can not be counted on. Plus the cluster of hotspots near the north will definitely hear any sensors around there before the southern hotspots. (edited)
Avatar
@KeithR regarding question on antenna mast: 25 meters and it s nearby some cities with important clusters (25-35km approx)
Avatar
Avatar
Stefz
@KeithR read my messages carefully before expressing opinions I didn't say. Regarding Groot I told him that I can DM him some datas I didn't receive an answer but I provided some numbers for the community to be seen. I honestly don t care if someone likes or not what I state because I m not here the convince anyone or to make friends. I put some numbers that anyone can see. Still regarding your sentences about our company installing on the middle of nowhere it s not at all like that, those are clients location which provide a good and not affected by HIP58 coverage in the around areas because the main goal for those clients is to use helium to have coverage on their sensors. The farer witnesses are something which was unexpected from the begin but still when people see those rewards and all of a sudden see a cut of them we can not say that people will be happy. And my statements were strongly to address what in GitHub is said which is totally false: few hotspot will have a not noticeable reduction. I don't call 7 to 15% on several miners a not noticeable drop. Just for your information, as wrote already 3 times, just checked one miner randomly and it lost in the last night 4 witnessing from farer than 100km, so guess if people could be happy or not. I m not here to create any discussion just providing data which I provided. Do not ask me again to provide wallet address or miner address cause they belong to client and i m not authorised to reveal. Numbers I put should be enough
I don't call 7 to 15% on several miners a not noticeable drop. It is a not noticeable drop if you look at it over the 700K hotspots online.
Avatar
@molano check my previous messages thanks
01:19
Guys I m not often here just in the last few days. Too busy with work. Have a good one!
Avatar
Avatar
Stefz
@KeithR read my messages carefully before expressing opinions I didn't say. Regarding Groot I told him that I can DM him some datas I didn't receive an answer but I provided some numbers for the community to be seen. I honestly don t care if someone likes or not what I state because I m not here the convince anyone or to make friends. I put some numbers that anyone can see. Still regarding your sentences about our company installing on the middle of nowhere it s not at all like that, those are clients location which provide a good and not affected by HIP58 coverage in the around areas because the main goal for those clients is to use helium to have coverage on their sensors. The farer witnesses are something which was unexpected from the begin but still when people see those rewards and all of a sudden see a cut of them we can not say that people will be happy. And my statements were strongly to address what in GitHub is said which is totally false: few hotspot will have a not noticeable reduction. I don't call 7 to 15% on several miners a not noticeable drop. Just for your information, as wrote already 3 times, just checked one miner randomly and it lost in the last night 4 witnessing from farer than 100km, so guess if people could be happy or not. I m not here to create any discussion just providing data which I provided. Do not ask me again to provide wallet address or miner address cause they belong to client and i m not authorised to reveal. Numbers I put should be enough
I am concerned about this sentence in your response. "I honestly don t care if someone likes or not what I state because I m not here the convince anyone or to make friends." The point of the community is to engage with the other members in the decentralized ecosystem. You should be here to meet friends AND/OR convince others to align with the project AND encourage others to participate in its success. Otherwise you are just being a troll. (edited)
Avatar
Avatar
molano
I don't call 7 to 15% on several miners a not noticeable drop. It is a not noticeable drop if you look at it over the 700K hotspots online.
If you accept his premise that the HIP is cutting his just rewards, then 15% is fairly significant of a discount. The argument here is whether those rewards were just in the first place. He, and his customers, probably has become accustomed to them. But as much as I disliked the reward reduction when we went from max 25 witness to the current 14 max, I accept the discount as it is better for the project. I get being dissatisfied with the rewards discount, I just wish these folks would get over it as it is better for the project. Or in this case, direct their frustrations at the cheaters stealing our tokens that forced this to even be an issue. It also be nice if they didn't keep regurgitating the same points over and over again after they have been dismissed with either data or a full explanation as to the logic of the approach.
Avatar
Avatar
Stefz
@KeithR regarding question on antenna mast: 25 meters and it s nearby some cities with important clusters (25-35km approx)
So not an example of one of your problem hotspots being discounted witnesses. It is one of your good set ups. (edited)
Avatar
@KeithR hey listen i m not a troll and if you lack me respect you will just be ignored. I provided data's and numbers. You are the one trolling me. Now I have no time to deal with people like you. You can believe or not and I don't care. You can say our company did shitty setup and I'm fine with that. I provided some numbers for the community. I m not here for anything else. Period!
facepalm 1
Avatar
Avatar
Stefz
@KeithR hey listen i m not a troll and if you lack me respect you will just be ignored. I provided data's and numbers. You are the one trolling me. Now I have no time to deal with people like you. You can believe or not and I don't care. You can say our company did shitty setup and I'm fine with that. I provided some numbers for the community. I m not here for anything else. Period!
Did I call you a troll? I expressed concern that you were self identifying as a troll. Why be here if you aren't going to be engaged with everyone else to help direct this project forward?
Avatar
@KeithR I m part of the community installing helium miners to clients who ask our company. I m rarely on discord I m too busy with work and family. I help the community also providing concerns, critics and some numbers coming from the 22 miners managed by the company. I acknowledge that I m almost alone in the hip58 critic side therefore I provided some numbers and data's for a community analysis. The sentence about making friends simply means that my goal is not to look for friends but to create awareness on some risks and disadvantages on the real field (not apps or estimations) of the new hip58. I can't call this an improvement for the fact that it s not affecting only gamers (if they will be affected at all) but also legit and powerful if I could say this, installations done... Again people have the right to have their own opinion. Cheers
Avatar
I paid for good setups on good location for what ?
02:08
02:08
For this ??
02:08
This will stop gamers ? Gamers make 1000 km, not 100
02:09
This is so sad for helium comunity, first they maked poc duble, now, with less witness, we lose again (edited)
Avatar
Unfortunately, the data seems to be supporting the fact that you did not align this install with the purpose of the network. You seem too far away from anything.
02:11
I had one witness_too_far today with a high performing hotspot 120' up in a tree that covers the boonies along with 8000 square kilometers as well. So not feeling yah.
Avatar
My witness are from maximum 130 km, 100 km distance cut my Wings
Avatar
Avatar
Stefz
@KeithR I m part of the community installing helium miners to clients who ask our company. I m rarely on discord I m too busy with work and family. I help the community also providing concerns, critics and some numbers coming from the 22 miners managed by the company. I acknowledge that I m almost alone in the hip58 critic side therefore I provided some numbers and data's for a community analysis. The sentence about making friends simply means that my goal is not to look for friends but to create awareness on some risks and disadvantages on the real field (not apps or estimations) of the new hip58. I can't call this an improvement for the fact that it s not affecting only gamers (if they will be affected at all) but also legit and powerful if I could say this, installations done... Again people have the right to have their own opinion. Cheers
You understand that I too am here representing my clients; right? In fact, I have more hotspots than you. I cover hotspots more remote from me than you appear to have. I am going to guess I have been here longer than you. Since my group owns all of our hotspots, we have more invested in our fleet than you appear to have invested (since you stated you just do installs for your clients). But yet, you have have never acknowledged in any of our interactions that I am a peer to you. We are all here, or at least supposed to be here, to engage with each to push forward this decentralized project. WE are directing this thing (well, more and more as time goes by). Don't just walk in the room and through shit on the walls. Please engage. Adapt your argument as the points are discussed. We are supposed to be learning from each other. We are here to work out all the issues (and dismiss some) so that every HIP is the best it can be or we get it voted down. You sound like you know how to do a good install. I think you are just a tad out of alignment with the project's purpose, but we are trying to bring you in ( 🙂 ). Regarding being almost alone in critiquing this HIP; that usually indicates that you might be wrong. Definitely not all the time, but most of the time yes. Yes, we may all be idiots but given a 92-to-7 win it looks like this HIP is indeed in alignment with the project's purpose. And it bears repeating; kudos to participating in this forum with english as a third or fourth language. Amazing in my opinion. One spelling error you kept making in your arguments was "farer" rather than "farther" (there is "further" too; https://www.grammarly.com/blog/farther-further/ ). A very understandable error by the way. (edited)
People use both further and farther to mean “more distant.” However, American English speakers favor farther for physical distances and further for figurative distances. Here’s…
Avatar
Avatar
r00t1ng
My witness are from maximum 130 km, 100 km distance cut my Wings
Unfortunately that means it is not a good set up. You need to build out your cluster (or get others to do so).
02:14
Hopefully the network is spreading out towards you.
Avatar
In very high, thats îs the key, i maked all things good, i have 360 View, and now for what ? For what i buyed good and expensive antennas ? To make a lot of coverage yes ?
Avatar
Sounds like you designed for a lot of PoC rewards and not sensor traffic.
Avatar
And helium come and a lot of frustred guys with emrit and 3 dbi antennas 10 in hex ți vote for ?
Avatar
Avatar
r00t1ng
And helium come and a lot of frustred guys with emrit and 3 dbi antennas 10 in hex ți vote for ?
Please don't get me started on those folks. It's ridiculous. (edited)
02:18
How high is your install?
02:18
Which antenna did you put up there?
Avatar
8 dbi, 310 m above the sea, and 15 m above the ground
Avatar
That's not that much. 🙂 I have 5.8, 200 meters elevation and 39 meters up in a tree. Covers 8000 square kilometers. Only one witness_too_far today. You must be fairly remote from others or have difficult topology.
02:23
Thinking about it for a second, you might want to switch to a 5.8 or even a 3. Depending on the slope of your topology, you might be actually over-shooting a lot of area.
Avatar
😅 was all perfect until today
Avatar
No. was not "perfect". You were milking it until now. 🙂
02:28
I really wish you guys that have these remote set ups were willing to share your hotspot names. I really want to see where you are so that I can understand your selection choice.
Avatar
Milking in the legal way
Avatar
It was; operative word "was".
Avatar
I dont spoof, i dont have amplifiers
02:28
Just a good location
👎 1
Avatar
So what are you going to do now? Put more closer? Wait until the network comes to you? Change the installation parameters?
Avatar
I dont know, oredered a week ago an mcgill 9 dbi, now will be useless, and the antena îs not arived yet 😅
Avatar
Avatar
r00t1ng
I dont know, oredered a week ago an mcgill 9 dbi, now will be useless, and the antena îs not arived yet 😅
Try to get them to switch it to their 6; or is it already in transit?
Avatar
Avatar
KeithR
Try to get them to switch it to their 6; or is it already in transit?
Îs at nu friend in uk, he have IT, i will talk to IT lets see If he will solve the problems
03:02
The problem îs caz i dont have a lot witness from 100 km, just 5, 6
Avatar
thanks god for this hip, a lot of cheaters from this wallet are trashed now:
💯 2
Avatar
thats why voted yes
03:38
loose some, gain more
Avatar
Avatar
jepp
thanks god for this hip, a lot of cheaters from this wallet are trashed now:
Let's watch what this one does over the next few weeks; https://explorer.helium.com/hotspots/112PocWgFknFoArQpxhaehbAM5umMzSieQFUCxqTo3tAt7m7St9W/ There is no way in hell those witnesses were valid to begin with. It was intentionally incorrectly asserted 760 km away to maximize rewards; looks like it is actually in Sao Paulo. I wonder if they will correctly assert its location in the next few days.
Helium Explorer is a Block Explorer and Analytics Platform for Helium, a decentralized wireless connectivity platform
Avatar
Avatar
KeithR
Let's watch what this one does over the next few weeks; https://explorer.helium.com/hotspots/112PocWgFknFoArQpxhaehbAM5umMzSieQFUCxqTo3tAt7m7St9W/ There is no way in hell those witnesses were valid to begin with. It was intentionally incorrectly asserted 760 km away to maximize rewards; looks like it is actually in Sao Paulo. I wonder if they will correctly assert its location in the next few days.
yep, this wallet also have another like this one, "placed"in Jardim Botanico - Rio de Janeiro
Avatar
Avatar
KeithR
You keep complaining about >100km witnesses; I don't understand why. Such witnessing are no use to the network. They should not be rewarded. I have 30 hotspots, all very well placed. Generally make 3-5 times network average. All but three are custom-installed to maximize coverage. I am good at what I do. All but two have gone up an oddly large amount today since the HIP was implemented. An increase is what is expected; what surprises me is how much I noticed today. My empathy for your witnesses being dropped is bordering on negative; you do understand that as all of these invalids are not rewarded, the counter action is that all of the other rewards increase because fewer tokens were handed out due to the invalids and especially due to the gamers, er, cheating fucks not stealing as many tokens from us? And I don't think you have any moral high ground arguing with Groot about the data. He (or she, I don't know) has asked you to give him/her a hotspot name so that he/she can evaluate your situation but you refuse to give it to him/her. Give it to him/her privately; we don't need to know what it is. If your statements are true about how awfully you are affected, he/she will surely support your statements. (edited)
“You keep complaining about >100km witnesses; I don't understand why. Such witnessing are no use to the network. They should not be rewarded.” PoC in itself is of no use to the network, as you put it. PoC is an algorithm meant to challenge hotspots to prove they provide coverage. That does not equal emulating sensor data transfer. The argument that sensors don’t reach over 100km makes no sense here and is a proof people misunderstand PoC. For the sake of the argument let’s assume sensors don’t reach further than 30km, and there is this hotspot 120km away from other hotspots, and he has at least a decent setup. You certainly couldn’t say it doesn’t provide coverage to potential sensors in a 30km radius around it, because it does. But how can it prove it? Using Proof of Coverage, of course, that’s why it’s there. If it beacons to and witnesses these hotspots 120km away, it can actually prove it’s there and it’s providing the coverage. Because other hotspots have better RF gear and are actually a better indicator of coverage than the sensors themselves. Well, why don’t you place more hotspots between your hotspot and the ones 120km away. That’s just a lazy and ignorant argument. Maybe you don’t want to invest in 10 more hotspots cause you don’t like the direction the network is going with these hips, maybe you can’t afford it, maybe you don’t have access to that land, maybe you got better things to do. (edited)
Avatar
this makes me so happy
05:02
he has a cluster up in the mountains, hope he comes back in town
Avatar
Avatar
belzebut
“You keep complaining about >100km witnesses; I don't understand why. Such witnessing are no use to the network. They should not be rewarded.” PoC in itself is of no use to the network, as you put it. PoC is an algorithm meant to challenge hotspots to prove they provide coverage. That does not equal emulating sensor data transfer. The argument that sensors don’t reach over 100km makes no sense here and is a proof people misunderstand PoC. For the sake of the argument let’s assume sensors don’t reach further than 30km, and there is this hotspot 120km away from other hotspots, and he has at least a decent setup. You certainly couldn’t say it doesn’t provide coverage to potential sensors in a 30km radius around it, because it does. But how can it prove it? Using Proof of Coverage, of course, that’s why it’s there. If it beacons to and witnesses these hotspots 120km away, it can actually prove it’s there and it’s providing the coverage. Because other hotspots have better RF gear and are actually a better indicator of coverage than the sensors themselves. Well, why don’t you place more hotspots between your hotspot and the ones 120km away. That’s just a lazy and ignorant argument. Maybe you don’t want to invest in 10 more hotspots cause you don’t like the direction the network is going with these hips, maybe you can’t afford it, maybe you don’t have access to that land, maybe you got better things to do. (edited)
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 04/15/2022 5:02 AM
I think you might have misunderstood @KeithR
Avatar
Avatar
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪
I think you might have misunderstood @KeithR
Possible, i quoted him as that was the last message that caught my attention regarding the "sensors don't reach over 100km anyway" narrative. It was also directed at all the other hundreds of messages giving what seemed to be the same argument.
Avatar
Avatar
belzebut
Possible, i quoted him as that was the last message that caught my attention regarding the "sensors don't reach over 100km anyway" narrative. It was also directed at all the other hundreds of messages giving what seemed to be the same argument.
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 04/15/2022 5:08 AM
I mean, it's a prevalent argument because it's true...
💯 1
Avatar
Avatar
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪
I mean, it's a prevalent argument because it's true...
Maybe read again my message and say where i'm wrong?
Avatar
Again effected the innocent negatively. Beacons have higher invalids, as do witnesses.. Maybe filtering them out or without increasing beacons not applying the rule until increased would have been a better option..
Avatar
I totally agree on @belzebut arguments and I provided already enough data's and information against the hip58. I already expressed myself about ignoring people who lack towards me respect and I won't tolerate it anymore. Who needs to understand will...
08:31
@akil.evlat absolutely hip58 try to hit gamers but hit without a dinstictions any hotspot with a certain level of setup, as some.of the miners installed for.our clients with a drop in rewards due to the farer witnessing from 7-15%. I think I repeated this concept already 6-7 times and today I could witness in few hours already several invalid witness to setups.which even if they provide great coverage in certain areas, will get invalid witnesses due to their ability of reaching further than 100km... (edited)
08:31
If people believe this incentives expanding the network than we have a different concept of incentive
Avatar
.V. 🇨🇦 04/15/2022 8:43 AM
anyone who can legit hit over 100km, pls post a pic of your setup 🙂
Avatar
Avatar
.V. 🇨🇦
anyone who can legit hit over 100km, pls post a pic of your setup 🙂
Well technically, it would be the other hotspot that can reach that far, they are just capturing the witness.
Avatar
Avatar
Fizzy
Well technically, it would be the other hotspot that can reach that far, they are just capturing the witness.
.V. 🇨🇦 04/15/2022 8:45 AM
They’d still have to have a decent setup
Avatar
Avatar
.V. 🇨🇦
They’d still have to have a decent setup
What's decent? Anything outside is decent imo.
💯 1
Avatar
@.V. 🇨🇦 check this I ve sent already few days ago (edited)
09:10
Avatar
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 04/15/2022 9:20 AM
Why u ppl still here lmfao
09:20
Move your HOTSPOT to a better location
💯 2
Avatar
Avatar
KeithR
I really wish you guys that have these remote set ups were willing to share your hotspot names. I really want to see where you are so that I can understand your selection choice.
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸 04/15/2022 9:20 AM
I have shared my names, pics, business plan and concerns on how this HIP will make it more difficult to expand. I agree, we are a community hopefully sharing the same goals, however, there has been no empathy shared to those with legitimate concerns, only statements of greed and selfishness. It's hard to befriend someone who does that to you. A little empathy goes a long way. Just a day in and I can see a large concern (that does not interfere with my plans), it appears witnesses that become invalid are lost in the system. This effects the beaconer, the witness and the surrounding hotspots that didn't get the witness opportunity. Miners with great setups that are able to reach 100 or more km can not control who they are beaconing/witnessing to. And, I'll say it again, it is clearly understood that sensors are not made to communicate long distances, but this HIP is making it harder for people to place hotspots in those areas. If the same reward system that allowed the network to grow through those distances in the past were still available, then placing a few hotspots in a bare area can be more profitable, and encourage others to install, if there were rewards available across the bare area to populated areas. And before you say the need for sensors is not needed in areas of less population, I will remind you that often, there are well traveled highways connecting these populated areas. Many of the future sensor use will be on vehicles. The HIP has passed. It seems the 7% that are still debating are just passionate because, at least here, there was very little empathy to their concerns, only battles, so they feel their voice was unheard.
Avatar
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 04/15/2022 9:20 AM
Avatar
Avatar
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸
I have shared my names, pics, business plan and concerns on how this HIP will make it more difficult to expand. I agree, we are a community hopefully sharing the same goals, however, there has been no empathy shared to those with legitimate concerns, only statements of greed and selfishness. It's hard to befriend someone who does that to you. A little empathy goes a long way. Just a day in and I can see a large concern (that does not interfere with my plans), it appears witnesses that become invalid are lost in the system. This effects the beaconer, the witness and the surrounding hotspots that didn't get the witness opportunity. Miners with great setups that are able to reach 100 or more km can not control who they are beaconing/witnessing to. And, I'll say it again, it is clearly understood that sensors are not made to communicate long distances, but this HIP is making it harder for people to place hotspots in those areas. If the same reward system that allowed the network to grow through those distances in the past were still available, then placing a few hotspots in a bare area can be more profitable, and encourage others to install, if there were rewards available across the bare area to populated areas. And before you say the need for sensors is not needed in areas of less population, I will remind you that often, there are well traveled highways connecting these populated areas. Many of the future sensor use will be on vehicles. The HIP has passed. It seems the 7% that are still debating are just passionate because, at least here, there was very little empathy to their concerns, only battles, so they feel their voice was unheard.
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 04/15/2022 9:21 AM
I just put a miner in the desert doing 1 hnt a day….
09:21
You don’t need to do this…
09:21
Why are u so determined to have a bad setup
Avatar
Avatar
KeithR
No. Bouncing off the water is unreliable. Awesome as heck that it makes it most of the time; but can not be counted on. Plus the cluster of hotspots near the north will definitely hear any sensors around there before the southern hotspots. (edited)
and what about this?
😆 1
Avatar
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 04/15/2022 9:24 AM
“One of them” 😂
09:26
Avatar
Original message was deleted or could not be loaded.
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 04/15/2022 9:32 AM
how come u think im not legit?
09:32
cause its a legit setup lmfao
09:33
sad tht u dont belive me
Avatar
Because you make more than me, obviously 😂
😆 1
Avatar
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 04/15/2022 9:33 AM
im not trying to trick you
Avatar
Avatar
groot
Because you make more than me, obviously 😂
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 04/15/2022 9:33 AM
ahhhh
Avatar
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸 04/15/2022 9:55 AM
@Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) You make comments like me being determined to make a bad set up. I sent you my info (at your request) and your only comment was that these set ups were up only a month. No empathy, no comment like "I can see how this HIP can hurt people like you, but unfortunately you can't please everyone and right now, our focus needs to be on slowing down cheaters" I get that. I understand that, but it would have been nice to receive some "give" and less "push". Especially if we are a community that has the same wants and goals.
Avatar
@Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸 I give you that push, my friend... In the pain we stick together 😉 👍
👍 1
Avatar
Avatar
valeek
and what about this?
That is awesome but is not helpful to the network. The one reaching east might be <100km though; no?
Avatar
Avatar
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸
@Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) You make comments like me being determined to make a bad set up. I sent you my info (at your request) and your only comment was that these set ups were up only a month. No empathy, no comment like "I can see how this HIP can hurt people like you, but unfortunately you can't please everyone and right now, our focus needs to be on slowing down cheaters" I get that. I understand that, but it would have been nice to receive some "give" and less "push". Especially if we are a community that has the same wants and goals.
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 04/15/2022 10:04 AM
this hip hurt me and a few of my spots but i am ADAPTING to the ever changing network what works good today might not be the META in 6 months u have to learn to adapt/overcome you live in a somewhat rural area i understand that... i live in a apartment complex in a .08 TS scale area downtown i know i cant mine hnt where i live so i have started offgrids you dont see me in #hip-17-hex-based-density-rewards complaining
Avatar
@Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) you.can join our network of happy clients off-grid if you will 😆 😉
Avatar
Avatar
Stefz
@Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) you.can join our network of happy clients off-grid if you will 😆 😉
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 04/15/2022 10:06 AM
might be a tad bit far for me being based in SoCal lmfao
👍 1
😉 1
Avatar
Avatar
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions)
this hip hurt me and a few of my spots but i am ADAPTING to the ever changing network what works good today might not be the META in 6 months u have to learn to adapt/overcome you live in a somewhat rural area i understand that... i live in a apartment complex in a .08 TS scale area downtown i know i cant mine hnt where i live so i have started offgrids you dont see me in #hip-17-hex-based-density-rewards complaining
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸 04/15/2022 10:07 AM
I never complained. I only debated my opinion. Maybe I misunderstood what this post was for. I thought it was to debate HIP 58. I see now it is only to support it and if you are in the 7% that wants another way, then too bad, take your opinion elsewhere. If I would have known that earlier, I would have saved myself a lot of time. Lol
Avatar
Avatar
belzebut
“You keep complaining about >100km witnesses; I don't understand why. Such witnessing are no use to the network. They should not be rewarded.” PoC in itself is of no use to the network, as you put it. PoC is an algorithm meant to challenge hotspots to prove they provide coverage. That does not equal emulating sensor data transfer. The argument that sensors don’t reach over 100km makes no sense here and is a proof people misunderstand PoC. For the sake of the argument let’s assume sensors don’t reach further than 30km, and there is this hotspot 120km away from other hotspots, and he has at least a decent setup. You certainly couldn’t say it doesn’t provide coverage to potential sensors in a 30km radius around it, because it does. But how can it prove it? Using Proof of Coverage, of course, that’s why it’s there. If it beacons to and witnesses these hotspots 120km away, it can actually prove it’s there and it’s providing the coverage. Because other hotspots have better RF gear and are actually a better indicator of coverage than the sensors themselves. Well, why don’t you place more hotspots between your hotspot and the ones 120km away. That’s just a lazy and ignorant argument. Maybe you don’t want to invest in 10 more hotspots cause you don’t like the direction the network is going with these hips, maybe you can’t afford it, maybe you don’t have access to that land, maybe you got better things to do. (edited)
A pretty good try actually. Can you point me to this hotspot? Maybe a picture too. I really want to understand the thinking that went into it.
Avatar
Avatar
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸
I never complained. I only debated my opinion. Maybe I misunderstood what this post was for. I thought it was to debate HIP 58. I see now it is only to support it and if you are in the 7% that wants another way, then too bad, take your opinion elsewhere. If I would have known that earlier, I would have saved myself a lot of time. Lol
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 04/15/2022 10:08 AM
well thats the thing with a decentralized community your not always gonna be it the majority
10:08
ive been against my fair share of hips tht passed
10:09
dont get me wrong it sucks
10:09
and trust me im bummin on HiP 58
Avatar
Avatar
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸
I never complained. I only debated my opinion. Maybe I misunderstood what this post was for. I thought it was to debate HIP 58. I see now it is only to support it and if you are in the 7% that wants another way, then too bad, take your opinion elsewhere. If I would have known that earlier, I would have saved myself a lot of time. Lol
It is for debating the HIP. But repeatedly landing on "but my rewards" doesn't help the argument.
☝️ 2
Avatar
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 04/15/2022 10:09 AM
just wiped out a bunch of sick spots i was planning
Avatar
@Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸 wise words...it seems so. One of the engineer working in my company came here, and escaped...the next day he told me he felt was pretty uncomfortable for the nervous environment (edited)
Avatar
Avatar
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸
I never complained. I only debated my opinion. Maybe I misunderstood what this post was for. I thought it was to debate HIP 58. I see now it is only to support it and if you are in the 7% that wants another way, then too bad, take your opinion elsewhere. If I would have known that earlier, I would have saved myself a lot of time. Lol
From your post earlier; "Miners with great setups that are able to reach 100 or more km can not control who they are beaconing/witnessing to." I like this angle for the argument of not including them as part of the 14. Seems reasonable to say that after some amount of time, we can analyze the data, determine that 100km is fine as the limit, and then stop including the >100km invalids. (edited)
Avatar
Avatar
KeithR
It is for debating the HIP. But repeatedly landing on "but my rewards" doesn't help the argument.
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸 04/15/2022 10:11 AM
Again, was not my argument. It affects my current rewards very little. It does, however, affect my business model to expand into a bare area. I have made that point multiple times.
Avatar
Unfortunately change of rules are not a great thing for investors...of any kind.. especially when it affects them...
Avatar
Avatar
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸
Again, was not my argument. It affects my current rewards very little. It does, however, affect my business model to expand into a bare area. I have made that point multiple times.
Leapfrogging into a bare area is clearly not financially prudent at first. One has no room to complain in the beginning about not being rewarded. As you develop a cluster, then the rewards come.
Avatar
Helium Explorer is a Block Explorer and Analytics Platform for Helium, a decentralized wireless connectivity platform
Avatar
Avatar
Stefz
Unfortunately change of rules are not a great thing for investors...of any kind.. especially when it affects them...
Investors voted in favor, so...
👆 1
Avatar
Avatar
KeithR
A pretty good try actually. Can you point me to this hotspot? Maybe a picture too. I really want to understand the thinking that went into it.
I have to repeat, I am trying to understand the motivations of someone that puts a hotspot so far away from anything else. Never have I gotten any incentive from the network to do this. It has never made sense to me. Expanding outwards 30-50 km makes total sense. You have to be seen by other hotspots in a manner that validates your ability to retrieve sensor data with some small amount of redundancy to the other hotspots. 150km out of town just meet those requirements. Please show me one of these hotspots and why you decided to do it.
Avatar
Avatar
KeithR
Leapfrogging into a bare area is clearly not financially prudent at first. One has no room to complain in the beginning about not being rewarded. As you develop a cluster, then the rewards come.
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸 04/15/2022 10:18 AM
Again not complaining. Three days ago a set up of a few miners in that areas could have been profitable in 3 months, now that same set up can expect to be profitable in a year. When this network was being built, having a small cluster reached profitability very quickly. HNT is much harder to get now. Being able to reach to surrounding cities would have been nice. I will just need to do it "much slower now", which has been my argument all along.
Avatar
You are being sarcastic, right? That farm to your north needs to be assessed.
Avatar
@ricopt5 that doesn't change the fact that investors do not like the rules change on the run... Even if this hip passed with more than 90%. I could provide several examples of it but I d love not to repeat myself and get people bored of that👍
facepalm 1
10:20
@Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸 rules changed on the run.. simple.
Avatar
Investors DO like the rules to change. It is why the HIPs are being formed, voted for, and then implemented. It secures the network's success. The ones that don't help the success of the project are voted down.
💯 1
Avatar
its mountains
10:21
its not easy
Avatar
Avatar
Stefz
@ricopt5 that doesn't change the fact that investors do not like the rules change on the run... Even if this hip passed with more than 90%. I could provide several examples of it but I d love not to repeat myself and get people bored of that👍
If they don't like it, they can vote against HIP's. If a HIP passes, it's because the majority of investors wanted it to pass
Avatar
@ricopt5 absolutely it s exactly as you say. Let me just say that majority of setups do not reach 100km distances so the vote was a obvious yes
Avatar
More importantly, sensors don't reach 100k.
💯 1
👆 2
Avatar
Yes Groot but proofs of.coverages allowed this far away witnessing until now... I m well aware that sensors reach maybe 40-50km at max but we still have other functions in the miners like poc right.. (edited)
Avatar
So those setups that reach those far away distances, do they witness anything in the middle or do they only witness equally 'great' setups?
Avatar
Avatar
Stefz
@ricopt5 absolutely it s exactly as you say. Let me just say that majority of setups do not reach 100km distances so the vote was a obvious yes
True, but there's a reason for that. Those distances are only possible when there's line of sight. But sensors very very rarely have line of sight to a hotspot
Avatar
Avatar
Stefz
Yes Groot but proofs of.coverages allowed this far away witnessing until now... I m well aware that sensors reach maybe 40-50km at max but we still have other functions in the miners like poc right.. (edited)
PoC is meant to simulate sensors while real sensors are not yet in the network, so there's no reason for POC to go distances further than sensors can
💯 1
Avatar
Groot please you keep asking me the same...so I give you same answer: yes they do witness a lot around them in a range of 40-50km. Yes they do provide a great coverage to sensors around them (that s why they were installed). Still due to their specific locations could also witness far away. Now they can't anymore. They got treated as gamers (even if they are not)😉
👎 1
Avatar
I am not treating your hotspots as if you're a gamer, nor do I treat you personally as a gamer, lets get that clear first.
Avatar
@ricopt5 so i would recommend to maintain the initial 10 miles distance and I would be happy about it if from day one this rule wpuld have been setup and mantained👍
10:28
@groot I know you don't. Those miners with further than 100km are treated like that...the analogy gamers can go very far so let's stop them with hip58 put in the same basket those setups which are legit. This is what I m trying to underline
Avatar
I understand they can witness far away, have been looking at some setups in italy lately and I think if you put two hotspots on a mountain top with 15dBi antennas 200km apart you will get a good deal of witnesses but the area between those two hotspots will likely not be 'covered' for the network.
Avatar
I m trying.to say that to stop criminals you arrest also innocent..hope u got my metaphore
Avatar
Avatar
Stefz
@groot I know you don't. Those miners with further than 100km are treated like that...the analogy gamers can go very far so let's stop them with hip58 put in the same basket those setups which are legit. This is what I m trying to underline
Just because a hotspot has invalids due to hip58, does not mean it's a gamer.........
Avatar
@groot let me disagree for personal experience. It s enough a 6-8 dB antenna and you get an amazing coverage...especially around within 50-60km.... Just to give u a insight which surprised me: a.hotspot.i personally installed reached out of the box 105km...original.antenna just near a window. Location was pretty high tbh (edited)
10:31
@ricopt5 I know and that s what I m pointing out...the cut hits without a discrimination
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/15/2022 10:32 AM
legit setup doesn't mean it's a good setup for the network.
Avatar
I can argue with you all day and we will still not agree that your great setups with witnesses of 150km are not showing that you provide coverage for sensors for that 150km and you will still bite my head off so I'm going to stop it here. I respect your opinion, but I don't agree with it.
💯 1
Avatar
Avatar
KeithR
A pretty good try actually. Can you point me to this hotspot? Maybe a picture too. I really want to understand the thinking that went into it.
A pretty good try at what? It was obviously a hypothetical example to make it easier to understand why the 100km sensor motive is wrong. Why even bother responding if you are not going to address my argument?
👎 1
Avatar
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸 04/15/2022 10:36 AM
Wow! Things are changing! I just ordered 2 more hotspots off Amazon with Prime. They will be here tomorrow 😁 Sure beats waiting for months and months. BTW. They are going in the forementioned bare area I have extensively mentioned. Different locations, because of the passage of this HIP, but in the area none the less.
🤘 1
Avatar
@groot we can absolutely stop because I ve already said at least 6-7 times that those hotspots provide coverage for sensors (farmers are using those sensors and asked to install the miners exactly for this reason) so I really don't get why you keep saying they do not provide coverage to sensors.when they got installed exactly for this. It s illogical sentence.. deal we stop
👎 1
Avatar
Never said they don't provide coverage and I would appreciate it if you would stop twisting my words.
Avatar
Your wish = my wish
10:41
@Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸 yeah now you can get hotspots pretty quick even in 1-2 weeks except N...
Avatar
DigitalHuevos🥚 04/15/2022 10:43 AM
You guys do realize the hip has passed and been implemented correct?
👍 1
Avatar
@DigitalHuevos🥚 hell yeah this morning when I saw one miner having 4-5 witnessing invalid. I can confirm it passed and works 100%
Avatar
DigitalHuevos🥚 04/15/2022 10:45 AM
All this time and effort could be put into finding new places and adapting to the change. Complaining in here all day about something that's done already. Kinda wasting your energy.
Avatar
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸 04/15/2022 10:45 AM
I think something that is getting missed in the Hotspot 100km and sensors reading more than 50km argument is you can have that HS set up because at the MOST, no sensor in that area will be further than 50 km from a Hotspot 😉
Avatar
@DigitalHuevos🥚 it s done on a daily base. Let me express that unfortunately some clients are not happy due to hip58...that s all
Avatar
DigitalHuevos🥚 04/15/2022 10:46 AM
Then right another hip. Complaining does nothing.....
Avatar
I m not here all day don't worry😉
10:47
Yes we move.on with what we have we can't change the past
Avatar
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸 04/15/2022 10:47 AM
... Not complaining...
Avatar
DigitalHuevos🥚 04/15/2022 10:48 AM
You are 100% complaining that it affects your "business model" as you stated.
10:48
So change your model?
Avatar
I wanna share with the community this install done this morning I just got picture, and I liked it. It s been built to provide coverage to few weather stations installed for agricultural reason
10:49
👍 4
🤘 1
10:51
This specific install is within a cluster of 12-14 hotsposts.so the main rewards will come.from.there.plus.few DC for data transfer
Avatar
Avatar
DigitalHuevos🥚
You are 100% complaining that it affects your "business model" as you stated.
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸 04/15/2022 10:51 AM
I am complaining now, about you. Read my posts. I even said several times I wasn't complaining. I was debating my position. Have a great day. I'm out. This person just hit my buttons.
prayweary 1
Avatar
Avatar
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸
I am complaining now, about you. Read my posts. I even said several times I wasn't complaining. I was debating my position. Have a great day. I'm out. This person just hit my buttons.
DigitalHuevos🥚 04/15/2022 10:53 AM
Sorry to offend you. But clearly you were complaining. Just saying your not doesn't change that fact.
10:54
I hope you both adapt and move on though. Seems you have great setups.
Avatar
By nature.me.and my company always move.on.... at the present seeing that few clients who wanted to expand decided at the moment not to do.so makes me unhappy... Changing business plan.once the plan is already done (money.from.bank.acquired), work organized, scheduling done, it s not so easy...but still we are fighter and we move on with what we got
💯 1
10:56
As the photo of.the install done this morning by the team clearly shows😉
Avatar
Avatar
Stefz
Click to see attachment 🖼️
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 04/15/2022 11:06 AM
My lord that panel….
⚓ 1
Avatar
Avatar
Stefz
I wanna share with the community this install done this morning I just got picture, and I liked it. It s been built to provide coverage to few weather stations installed for agricultural reason
Zip ties around the 4x4 (I don't know what you call it under the metric system) are for what? The ground wire? I assume the backhaul on this is cellular? (edited)
11:25
Given its remote-ish location, why put it so high up on the pole? Flip the solar panel 90-degrees and the pole only needs to be 5 feet tall; no? And if you really need the height, why not just a pole and the antenna is on it. 3 or 4 meters of LMR400 does not lose that many dbi.
Avatar
@KeithR I assume you are asking why there are those 3-4 zip ties? If so, they hold better a cable on the other side of the pole running from the ground up to the boxes.. 4g router yes
11:34
@KeithR security reason, Even if it s on private property land (edited)
Avatar
Avatar
KeithR
Given its remote-ish location, why put it so high up on the pole? Flip the solar panel 90-degrees and the pole only needs to be 5 feet tall; no? And if you really need the height, why not just a pole and the antenna is on it. 3 or 4 meters of LMR400 does not lose that many dbi.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/15/2022 11:34 AM
The panel is at an angle and needs to be points that direction. Why would you flip the panel?
Avatar
Guys the panel is oriented south 205 degrees for maximum performance
👍 2
Avatar
Avatar
Stefz
Click to see attachment 🖼️
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/15/2022 11:36 AM
Looks like a sturdy setup 🙂
👍 1
Avatar
It was resisting for 6 months and also last week didn t fall down with 111kmh winds.... Another setup unfortunately fell down without damages luckily but it s up again in less than a week...
😢 1
11:37
11:37
Up again
11:38
🤘 1
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
The panel is at an angle and needs to be points that direction. Why would you flip the panel?
I believe keith is referring to flipping it horizontal instead of vertical so that you don't need to have the pole quite as tall to have the same clearing beneath the panel
Avatar
I see. The wind load would be higher and the resistance on the structure as well. We did some testing. The panel also gets fixed better in vertical position due to its very small size 😆
👍 2
11:42
@Radrob the height of the pole is for security reasons and to have a better view when you climb on it😉
Avatar
Avatar
Stefz
@Radrob the height of the pole is for security reasons and to have a better view when you climb on it😉
I'm jealous. I had similar plans in mind early on, but never came to fruition....thanks day job
Avatar
Avatar
Radrob
I believe keith is referring to flipping it horizontal instead of vertical so that you don't need to have the pole quite as tall to have the same clearing beneath the panel
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/15/2022 11:43 AM
Ahhh... different axis 🙂
Avatar
Avatar
Radrob
I'm jealous. I had similar plans in mind early on, but never came to fruition....thanks day job
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/15/2022 11:43 AM
Same
Avatar
@Radrob get a good friend and go for it...it s fun... luckily I have a team building it...or i would surely hurt myself😆
11:44
It s not super cheap but it s fun I can confirm!
Avatar
Avatar
Stefz
It s not super cheap but it s fun I can confirm!
Yea I prototyped one in my backyard. Gets all kinds of questions!
Avatar
Avatar
KeithR
Given its remote-ish location, why put it so high up on the pole? Flip the solar panel 90-degrees and the pole only needs to be 5 feet tall; no? And if you really need the height, why not just a pole and the antenna is on it. 3 or 4 meters of LMR400 does not lose that many dbi.
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 04/15/2022 11:52 AM
Wait… u mean like this???
Avatar
Avatar
Radrob
Yea I prototyped one in my backyard. Gets all kinds of questions!
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/15/2022 11:56 AM
Tell me about it... LOL
11:56
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Tell me about it... LOL
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 04/15/2022 11:57 AM
You should see the crap I pull on my balcony….
😄 1
Avatar
Avatar
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions)
You should see the crap I pull on my balcony….
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/15/2022 12:00 PM
Miiiight have some LOS issues on that one 😉
Avatar
Avatar
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions)
You should see the crap I pull on my balcony….
DigitalHuevos🥚 04/15/2022 12:14 PM
I couldn't live with myself with the lettering on that box upside down heefi. I'm getting itchy looking at it😂 (edited)
😂 3
Avatar
Original message was deleted or could not be loaded.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/15/2022 1:23 PM
Hotspot name?
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Hotspot name?
He’s marginally affected, we went through them in DM. He’s mostly angry about the p2p issues but projecting that anger on anything that moves😐
👍 4
Avatar
Avatar
groot
He’s marginally affected, we went through them in DM. He’s mostly angry about the p2p issues but projecting that anger on anything that moves😐
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/15/2022 1:39 PM
Ah ok 🙂
Avatar
found 2 "good" cases where Hip58 is working, these both appear to have moved recently, and didnt reassert (edited)
16:29
Rough Bubblegum Mouse and Big Mocha Butterfly
16:30
and this beacon that flags a bunch of others that apparently did the same https://heliumtracker.io/beacons/102225463
Avatar
Avatar
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions)
Wait… u mean like this???
Yeah but that seems too low. Too easy for a dog, coyote, etc to come by and piss on the panel. 🙂. But definitely better for height and wind resistance. I really appreciate Stefz explanation that a vertical orientation is easier on the pole. (edited)
Avatar
Avatar
KeithR
Yeah but that seems too low. Too easy for a dog, coyote, etc to come by and piss on the panel. 🙂. But definitely better for height and wind resistance. I really appreciate Stefz explanation that a vertical orientation is easier on the pole. (edited)
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 04/15/2022 4:56 PM
It’s private property on top of a mount… not a lot of dogs just wander up a 6000ft mountain cause they “feel” like it 🤣
Avatar
Avatar
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions)
It’s private property on top of a mount… not a lot of dogs just wander up a 6000ft mountain cause they “feel” like it 🤣
What about those goats that climb the cliffs? Do they not lift their legs when they take a leak? So your concern for vandalism is zero? Seems like Stefz is concerned regardless of private property.
Avatar
Avatar
KeithR
What about those goats that climb the cliffs? Do they not lift their legs when they take a leak? So your concern for vandalism is zero? Seems like Stefz is concerned regardless of private property.
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 04/15/2022 4:59 PM
Stefz doesn’t have Jeff…
😄 1
16:59
Jeff is the gatekeeper
16:59
Unless u want to end up dead
16:59
I wouldn’t go around them
16:59
Lol
17:00
Talkin about a 70 year old man tht just sits in the woods….
17:00
It’s his land
17:00
47 acers
17:00
Soo…
17:03
Avatar
Avatar
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions)
Jeff is the gatekeeper
I was in Boca del Toro in Panama two years ago and we headed out to the bat caves. Was told to bring $1 USD for each person to pay the gatekeeper and not to be scared of him unless we got caught not paying. I 'm thinking, "yeah whatever; funny story to scare the tourists." We ride our bikes out there. Get to the gate, no one is there. So we lock the bikes up figuring he would come out to see us or he doesn't show and it was simply a story. Out comes the most grizzly old Panamanian dude with a 3 foot matcheté and in hard core Spanish asks for our gate fees. My kids speak a little Spanish, so they begin to chat with him. He is mean as hell. So we cough up the $5 in ones. Complete demeanor change! Super nice old man takes us to the gate, unlocks it for us, and wishes us good fortune. (edited)
😂 1
❤️ 1
17:08
So I get the idea of a gatekeeper out in the middle of nowhere!
17:11
When he ultimately passes we can just replace the gatekeeper with a LoRa-enabled gate sensor and a pay-by-phone app. But then no more cool stories for the tourists.
❤️ 1
Avatar
Avatar
KeithR
When he ultimately passes we can just replace the gatekeeper with a LoRa-enabled gate sensor and a pay-by-phone app. But then no more cool stories for the tourists.
Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 04/15/2022 5:14 PM
Yea also it’s just not the kinda place ppl hike it’s a dangerous area very rural lots of bobcats and bears soo ppl don’t go up to hike ur it’s mostly all privately owned where I’m setup the state park is on the other face by the observatory… (edited)
Avatar
This is why I've invested money in top of the range antennas and cables and now I'm getting invalids for my hard work
Avatar
Avatar
GH05TZZ
This is why I've invested money in top of the range antennas and cables and now I'm getting invalids for my hard work
My sympathies that someone wasn't there to mentor you not to do that. Or at least certainly not to count on those witnesses. We are here for you now though. (edited)
Avatar
These rules were not in the game when I joined. Changing the rules while playing in not fair. Dealing with those who are cheating can be done other ways
facepalm 1
Avatar
The rules have been changing most of the time. That is why we are at HIP58. And being >100km from sensors and hotspots has never been the best of ideas.
Avatar
Remember, long before HIP58 it was called LongFi. 😉
😃 1
Avatar
From the Helium documentation; "Depending on the terrain, LongFi signals can travel between 1 and 10 miles (1.6 and 16 kilometers)."
00:40
Shew. I was going to be seriously eating my words if that said >100km. 🙂 Correction; that is Data-Alliance's copy of the Helium information. (edited)
Avatar
Do invalid witnesses account in Witness Reward Units? I have a hotspot with 11 witnesses on the sea and 5 of those are invalid now.... Asking because there is only a handful of us here and this sea ones saved us but now they are invalids and getting nothing for them, will our Witness Reward Units stay the same so we are "worth less" to each other?
Avatar
Avatar
KeithR
From the Helium documentation; "Depending on the terrain, LongFi signals can travel between 1 and 10 miles (1.6 and 16 kilometers)."
i.e. will this stay ore turn to 1?
Avatar
Avatar
maradosev
Do invalid witnesses account in Witness Reward Units? I have a hotspot with 11 witnesses on the sea and 5 of those are invalid now.... Asking because there is only a handful of us here and this sea ones saved us but now they are invalids and getting nothing for them, will our Witness Reward Units stay the same so we are "worth less" to each other?
Yes they do. I think this is definitely the 'no' camp's best complaint. It is needed though to analyze data. I think after a few months of HIP58, there will be room for a HIP to analyze the data, determine if >100km is working and if it is and we don't need to bring it down to >50km, then seems reasonable to not include it in the currently set to 14 max witness list anymore. (edited)
Avatar
Reward units are on a beacon by beacon basis, that's just a dumbed down version with some aggregation.
Avatar
Avatar
KeithR
Yes they do. I think this is definitely the 'no' camp's best complaint. It is needed though to analyze data. I think after a few months of HIP58, there will be room for a HIP to analyze the data, determine if >100km is working and if it is and we don't need to bring it down to >50km, then seems reasonable to not include it in the currently set to 14 max witness list anymore. (edited)
so I should what... replace my 400$ HNTenna with the stock antenna?
😂 1
Avatar
Avatar
maradosev
i.e. will this stay ore turn to 1?
Isn't that transmit scale? That will stay the same as that is based on density of hotspots with the corresponding hexes.
Avatar
Avatar
maradosev
so I should what... replace my 400$ HNTenna with the stock antenna?
If you paid $400 USD, someone cleaned you out. The RAK 5.8 is the most useful antenna ($74). I like the 8 in some situations, but the 5.8 is the hands down default choice. (edited)
Avatar
no, the transmit scale is 1 because there is only a few of us. the worth of the witnesses is the right number i.e. how much ur worth for others witnessing u. (edited)
Avatar
Avatar
maradosev
i.e. will this stay ore turn to 1?
Witness reward units being 0.43 means you actually witness beacons that have 8 witnesses on average. (edited)
Avatar
Avatar
groot
Witness reward units being 0.43 means you actually witness beacons that have 8 witnesses on average. (edited)
Where do you get that number? Can't say I have seen it before.
Avatar
Avatar
KeithR
If you paid $400 USD, someone cleaned you out. The RAK 5.8 is the most useful antenna ($74). I like the 8 in some situations, but the 5.8 is the hands down default choice. (edited)
McGillls bby.
Avatar
Avatar
KeithR
Where do you get that number? Can't say I have seen it before.
Avatar
Avatar
KeithR
Where do you get that number? Can't say I have seen it before.
Helium Improvement Proposals. Contribute to helium/HIP development by creating an account on GitHub.
Avatar
Use < and > around your links to prevent life-sized previews
Avatar
Avatar
Fizzy
McGillls bby.
have 13 mcgills + 1 HNTenna. Nobody cleaned me. Used to have RAK 5.8 but switched to McGill. Ordered from the site but import duties + custom tax + shipping to my country.... just look at McGill, RAK, HNTenna; put a big shipping cost, add 25% for income tax (including the big shipping cost) & add 25$ for customs fee. (edited)
👀 1
Avatar
Avatar
groot
Witness reward units being 0.43 means you actually witness beacons that have 8 witnesses on average. (edited)
yes but if they were 4 (if the invalids weren't included) it would be better for all of us because we would be "worth more" i.e. for every witness we wouldn't get 0.04 but 0.07 (not actual number, just wanted to give some perspective)
Avatar
Invalids aren't included in witness reward unit calculations.
Avatar
for example, on a mountain top I get 0.005 for a witness because the area is main city and oversaturated, and on the sea where there is only a handful of us 0.06-0.07 which is amazing.
Avatar
Avatar
groot
Invalids aren't included in witness reward unit calculations.
let me see.... 0.43 = 8, I have 4 local valid and 4 invalid witnesses. Hmm... (edited)
Avatar
Avatar
maradosev
for example, on a mountain top I get 0.005 for a witness because the area is main city and oversaturated, and on the sea where there is only a handful of us 0.06-0.07 which is amazing.
Exactly the goal of the witness reward units, incentivizing non-redundant coverage 👍 Amount of valid witnesses determine reward unit calcs.
Avatar
I live at the edge of a dense Res4 hex, so my witness units is horrible and thus I just ignore it as I can't do anything about it.
Avatar
Avatar
maradosev
let me see.... 0.43 = 8, I have 4 local valid and 4 invalid witnesses. Hmm... (edited)
That's on average though. You don't know how long the aggregation is so might be some more time before it starts taking into account hip58 invalidated ones. Not on chain, on hotspotty. On chain is instant (edited)
Avatar
So sad...
Avatar
Avatar
groot
That's on average though. You don't know how long the aggregation is so might be some more time before it starts taking into account hip58 invalidated ones. Not on chain, on hotspotty. On chain is instant (edited)
I just turned it on april 4th cuz I had the HNTenna for six months and didn't put it to use. I was thrilled it sees this far but then the HIP came and I saw the that the others witnessing me started getting less rewards for me, and they are my friends xD so I was searching for an explanation... (edited)
Avatar
Avatar
groot
That's on average though. You don't know how long the aggregation is so might be some more time before it starts taking into account hip58 invalidated ones. Not on chain, on hotspotty. On chain is instant (edited)
Thx @groot!, to sum up, my witness reward units will go up because over some time (we're talking days/weeks/months?) the invalid ones will not be included in the calculations?
Avatar
Witness reward units are calculated for each beacon, so one beacon you can get 0.11 witness reward units while the next you get the full 1.0. The aggregated 'average' on hotspotty will go up if a significant portion of your beacons are witnessed by less hotspots.
Avatar
Avatar
groot
Witness reward units are calculated for each beacon, so one beacon you can get 0.11 witness reward units while the next you get the full 1.0. The aggregated 'average' on hotspotty will go up if a significant portion of your beacons are witnessed by less hotspots.
I understand you but we're "in the middle of nowhere" 200m above sea. You have the sea and the nearest city is on the sea which is 0m above sea behind hills etc. so cant see it around 50 km away. so u get the close ones or the ones across the sea that are 150-200km away. If the beacon is always heard by them, even though they will always be invalid, (and no new >100km witnesses show up) will it (the invalids) account in the calculations? (edited)
Avatar
Avatar
maradosev
I understand you but we're "in the middle of nowhere" 200m above sea. You have the sea and the nearest city is on the sea which is 0m above sea behind hills etc. so cant see it around 50 km away. so u get the close ones or the ones across the sea that are 150-200km away. If the beacon is always heard by them, even though they will always be invalid, (and no new >100km witnesses show up) will it (the invalids) account in the calculations? (edited)
They will not be taken into account as they are invalid. For reward calculations it will be like they don't exist. (edited)
Avatar
Avatar
groot
They will not be taken into account as they are invalid. For reward calculations it will be like they don't exist. (edited)
high5!, (they do exist now because of the HIP58 transition period and it will take some time for them to pack their bags and move out of my witness book, I get it!)
Avatar
Avatar
groot
They will not be taken into account as they are invalid. For reward calculations it will be like they don't exist. (edited)
thx a bunch/ a lot / a gazillion! (edited)
👍 1
Avatar
Avatar
KeithR
The rules have been changing most of the time. That is why we are at HIP58. And being >100km from sensors and hotspots has never been the best of ideas.
and that's a fair play?
Avatar
Avatar
GH05TZZ
and that's a fair play?
I think so. HIPs suggest a change to the rules. The ones that pass the vote are deemed by the community to be improvements.
01:48
Most of the HIPs are designed to better align the installation of the hotspots to the purpose and intention of the network. (edited)
Avatar
those running the hotspots with stock antenna and having no clue how a network works
😂 1
01:48
they vote
Avatar
Nowhere has it ever said that it was optimal to place a hotspot >100 km from another one.
Avatar
Avatar
GH05TZZ
those running the hotspots with stock antenna and having no clue how a network works
Also true.
01:49
Mostly true. The stock antenna on the bobcats is rather good actually. Doesn't stop me from upgrading though.
Avatar
but these long gaps between populated area should be covered
Avatar
Avatar
GH05TZZ
but these long gaps between populated area should be covered
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 04/16/2022 1:49 AM
With more hotspots, yes
Avatar
how you sugest to cover if not with high gain antenas?
Avatar
Yes by hotspots that are within the expected parameters distance from sensors. 30-50 km max.
Avatar
Avatar
GH05TZZ
how you sugest to cover if not with high gain antenas?
To be no more than 99 km from each other. Preferably about 50 km.
01:51
I do agree that the middle of nowhere covering a highway between cities is a place where it makes the most sense to be at maximum distance from other hotspots but still be covering sensors that are coming nearby. But covering those scenarios has to be understand to be not profitable.
01:53
I was driving between Phoenix and Yuma (300km) last month pondering hard how to justify being out covering the huge gap.
Avatar
at the moment only those who gaming the system make profit
Avatar
Bullshit. I am doing rather well and this HIP has affect one or two hotspots one or two witnesses.
Avatar
my hotspots are making $1-5 a day
Avatar
No profit was ever promised. The purpose of the network is not to make you rich.
Avatar
Avatar
GH05TZZ
at the moment only those who gaming the system make profit
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 04/16/2022 1:54 AM
Avatar
not to make me rich
Avatar
Avatar
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪
Click to see attachment 🖼️
ouch
Avatar
Avatar
GH05TZZ
my hotspots are making $1-5 a day
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 04/16/2022 1:54 AM
If you don't have any constructive feedback for this hip, i'd suggest you move your "concerns" to #general
Avatar
but to pay for investment
Avatar
Being in the middle of nowhere is going to make you zilch in data credits in the near future; you do realize that, right? And on-ramping sensor data is the purpose of the network.
Avatar
Avatar
GH05TZZ
but to pay for investment
Not to pay for your investment. To provide an incentive to get there early while we wait for the real task of sensor traffic.
Avatar
@Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 not the distance helps fighting the gamer. They are using internet to steal packets for witness, fight it trough internet not trough radio
Avatar
You really should be directing your frustrations at the cheating fucks stealing tokens from us that caused this HIP to be necessary.
01:57
They are using radio to witness and using larger distances to increase their rewards.
01:58
There are other HIPs designed to get them as well.
Avatar
Avatar
GH05TZZ
@Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 not the distance helps fighting the gamer. They are using internet to steal packets for witness, fight it trough internet not trough radio
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 04/16/2022 1:58 AM
I quite see that you have no knowledge how spoofing works and are only here for your own selfish reasons. I won't repeat myself, this is not a channel to complain about your miscalculated risk investment. (edited)
💯 1
Avatar
Avatar
KeithR
You really should be directing your frustrations at the cheating fucks stealing tokens from us that caused this HIP to be necessary.
Not the only reason this was necessary though. Just a bonus.
💯 1
Avatar
Avatar
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪
I quite see that you have no knowledge how spoofing works and are only here for your own selfish reasons. I won't repeat myself, this is not a channel to complain about your miscalculated risk investment. (edited)
And here I was thinking the discords only reason for existing was the ability to complain in hundreds of channels Troll
😄 1
Avatar
Avatar
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪
I quite see that you have no knowledge how spoofing works and are only here for your own selfish reasons. I won't repeat myself, this is not a channel to complain about your miscalculated risk investment. (edited)
This is harsh, "not a channel to complain about your miscalculated risk investment" but kind of spot on.
Avatar
Avatar
groot
And here I was thinking the discords only reason for existing was the ability to complain in hundreds of channels Troll
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 04/16/2022 1:59 AM
Nah, that would be #general 🤭
Avatar
Avatar
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪
Nah, that would be #general 🤭
Well played 🙂
Avatar
Avatar
KeithR
This is harsh, "not a channel to complain about your miscalculated risk investment" but kind of spot on.
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 04/16/2022 2:00 AM
It's saturday, so it's my shift to play "bad cop"
👍 2
Avatar
Where did he go?
02:03
I am still waiting for someone to give me a good reason why the cutoff shouldn't have been set at >50km; other than generosity. 🙂 (edited)
02:04
[crickets]
Avatar
100km is > 50km, just saying.
Avatar
Avatar
groot
100km is > 50km, just saying.
Edited
Avatar
Avatar
KeithR
I am still waiting for someone to give me a good reason why the cutoff shouldn't have been set at >50km; other than generosity. 🙂 (edited)
Meh, that's more debatable. If you have a hotspot really high, it can provide coverage to some sensors above 50km
02:39
High I mean in a tower on top of a mountain 1km above sea level
Avatar
Avatar
ricopt5
Meh, that's more debatable. If you have a hotspot really high, it can provide coverage to some sensors above 50km
Sure. But the analyses done for this HIP was that all of the current use case scenarios for sensors was for a max transmission of 30-50 km. And yes your super high antenna can pick up sensors from further than that but will you be the FIRST hotspot to hear that sensor? It is rather unlikely under most use cases.
02:43
My 120' high hotspot at 590' elevation is not going to pick up a dog collar before the 1000+ hotspots between me and the other side of the city 50 km away. I am going to get the sensors that are closest to me and be hoping the other hotspots <10 km away are not listening at the moment to maybe get the second paid message from some vital sensor. (edited)
Avatar
It will probably not be the first, no. But the sensor operator should still be buying packets from multiple hotspots for reliability, so your hotspot can still be selected
Avatar
You want a value that neither stifles innovation nor incentivizes and rewards unrealistic setups. That value is probably more 100km than 50km. It's a safeguard against those unrealistic setups, not a way to incentivize more hotspots, at least tthat's my opinion. (edited)
👍 1
Avatar
Avatar
KeithR
Sure. But the analyses done for this HIP was that all of the current use case scenarios for sensors was for a max transmission of 30-50 km. And yes your super high antenna can pick up sensors from further than that but will you be the FIRST hotspot to hear that sensor? It is rather unlikely under most use cases.
PoC is an algorithm meant to challenge hotspots to prove they provide coverage. Even if sensors had only a 10km range, and hotspots had a 150km range, there is no reason for PoC not to make use of that 150km range to allow hotspots to prove their position and coverage, and to incentivize expansion. Why would you want to limit the increments to which the network expands to 10km and not make full use of what is available? It’s incredible how many people fail to understand the purpose of PoC and try to make a mix between PoC and sensor data and that sensor range is irrelevant to PoC.
👍 1
Avatar
Avatar
belzebut
PoC is an algorithm meant to challenge hotspots to prove they provide coverage. Even if sensors had only a 10km range, and hotspots had a 150km range, there is no reason for PoC not to make use of that 150km range to allow hotspots to prove their position and coverage, and to incentivize expansion. Why would you want to limit the increments to which the network expands to 10km and not make full use of what is available? It’s incredible how many people fail to understand the purpose of PoC and try to make a mix between PoC and sensor data and that sensor range is irrelevant to PoC.
What you fail to understand is that in your example you need a hotspot every 10km or there is no coverage for that sensor at all between 10km and 140km…
Avatar
Avatar
groot
What you fail to understand is that in your example you need a hotspot every 10km or there is no coverage for that sensor at all between 10km and 140km…
It's a door sensor, it doesn't need that
Avatar
Avatar
belzebut
It's a door sensor, it doesn't need that
You said so yourself, only 10km range so if I put one up 11km from hotspot A there is no coverage regardless whether hotspot A can reach hotspot B 200km away.
Avatar
Sure thing, that’s what 10km range means. But all other hotspots individually have 10km range, so they provide the same coverage, why shouldn’t this guy take part in PoC?
Avatar
Avatar
GH05TZZ
my hotspots are making $1-5 a day
$30-$150 a month? That seems pretty good for a $1000 (my estimate of hotspot + gear) investment.
💯 1
Avatar
Avatar
krby
$30-$150 a month? That seems pretty good for a $1000 (my estimate of hotspot + gear) investment.
Unfortunately you know to get hold of a hotspot when was madness you had to pay overprice… but those who are saying they are doing it for community really piss me off. We are all doing it for money and it is fun also 😜. This is called mining not charity and we all like 💰. I know is hard to stop the gamers but that should not affect honest miners with expensive setups. I’ve invested in solar panels, batteries and top of the range antennas to get links from top of mountains and hills to over 100km and now is all wasted
Avatar
Avatar
GH05TZZ
Unfortunately you know to get hold of a hotspot when was madness you had to pay overprice… but those who are saying they are doing it for community really piss me off. We are all doing it for money and it is fun also 😜. This is called mining not charity and we all like 💰. I know is hard to stop the gamers but that should not affect honest miners with expensive setups. I’ve invested in solar panels, batteries and top of the range antennas to get links from top of mountains and hills to over 100km and now is all wasted
but those who are saying they are doing it for community really piss me off.
Heh, ya. I'm doing it for both, most are if we're honest. In the beginning for me, it was a neat thing I wanted to support and thought had little/some chance of paying for itself, now see it as both a project I want to exist and as a bet to earn quite a bit.
I know is hard to stop the gamers but that should not affect honest miners with expensive setups.
This is a tough standard to meet. Sort of equivalent to "we should let 10 guilty men go free rather than accidentally convict the innocent". Not quite, but feels similar to me. Collateral damage is much easier to talk about if you're not the one being affected (I'm not in this case, so I have a blind spot here, I admit) IMO, the thing people are reacting to most is that the "rules" for PoC are changing on top of it being already kind of difficult to figure out how to optimize a setup and get a good short feedback loop. At some point, I just accepted this is going to be the way things are. It's been true for hotspots since the beginning and validators since they rolled out. Things keep changing. I'm not saying your arguments are automatically invalid, just trying to provide a perspective that things will likely continue to change. Sometimes those changes affect you, sometimes they don't.
Avatar
I support setting some sort of limit that will weed out witness reports that are literally impossible--I've seen a few cases of distances of several hundred km--but penalizing people for having setups that are at the limit of real performance seems crude and stupid. One way for the network to grow would be for there to be long-range hotspots to extend coverage between widely-separated clusters of shorter-range hotspots. This HIP would largely shut that down. I bought my hotspot from a guy who lived in a suburb that was too isolated to get any reasonable number of witness reports. Again, I support the idea of getting rid of cheaters by eliminating those with clearly unreasonable patterns of activity, but surely we could come up with something more sophisticated than this distance limit, which everyone seems to acknowledge is very close to the limit of actual performance. What would make more sense to me would be some sort of traffic analysis to ferret out clusters of mutually-witnessing hotspots with impossible geography. Take a look at a map of the area west of Shanghai, for example, where there are lots of almost perfect hexagons of hotspots, some whose locations are in very hilly areas where not only are their patterns of activity unreasonable, but their physical locations would require feats of engineering that seem highly unlikely. How about we go after those? The current proposal, as I understand it, would do nothing at all to shut down those obvious cheaters.
Avatar
Hey Guys, any chance of having some exceptions to the 100km rule? In particular for coastal countries/locations? I understand that it sounds easier than it is to do, but Cyprus HS regularly talk to Lebanon HS, however, it gets invalidated cause the distance is 200km. Well, radio signal travels this distance over water, so it's legit.
Avatar
Avatar
RGobbel
I support setting some sort of limit that will weed out witness reports that are literally impossible--I've seen a few cases of distances of several hundred km--but penalizing people for having setups that are at the limit of real performance seems crude and stupid. One way for the network to grow would be for there to be long-range hotspots to extend coverage between widely-separated clusters of shorter-range hotspots. This HIP would largely shut that down. I bought my hotspot from a guy who lived in a suburb that was too isolated to get any reasonable number of witness reports. Again, I support the idea of getting rid of cheaters by eliminating those with clearly unreasonable patterns of activity, but surely we could come up with something more sophisticated than this distance limit, which everyone seems to acknowledge is very close to the limit of actual performance. What would make more sense to me would be some sort of traffic analysis to ferret out clusters of mutually-witnessing hotspots with impossible geography. Take a look at a map of the area west of Shanghai, for example, where there are lots of almost perfect hexagons of hotspots, some whose locations are in very hilly areas where not only are their patterns of activity unreasonable, but their physical locations would require feats of engineering that seem highly unlikely. How about we go after those? The current proposal, as I understand it, would do nothing at all to shut down those obvious cheaters.
If you have suspect spots in mind you can report on GitHub
Avatar
I’ve installed some hotspots on top of mountains at 1800m height to cover large area, it was witnessed 4-5 big cities and all surrounding hotspots at over 200km without cheating, now it will be a lonely wolf
Avatar
Avatar
krby
but those who are saying they are doing it for community really piss me off.
Heh, ya. I'm doing it for both, most are if we're honest. In the beginning for me, it was a neat thing I wanted to support and thought had little/some chance of paying for itself, now see it as both a project I want to exist and as a bet to earn quite a bit.
I know is hard to stop the gamers but that should not affect honest miners with expensive setups.
This is a tough standard to meet. Sort of equivalent to "we should let 10 guilty men go free rather than accidentally convict the innocent". Not quite, but feels similar to me. Collateral damage is much easier to talk about if you're not the one being affected (I'm not in this case, so I have a blind spot here, I admit) IMO, the thing people are reacting to most is that the "rules" for PoC are changing on top of it being already kind of difficult to figure out how to optimize a setup and get a good short feedback loop. At some point, I just accepted this is going to be the way things are. It's been true for hotspots since the beginning and validators since they rolled out. Things keep changing. I'm not saying your arguments are automatically invalid, just trying to provide a perspective that things will likely continue to change. Sometimes those changes affect you, sometimes they don't.
I think nobody disputes that rules for PoC should change when an improvement to the algorithm is developed. But this is not an improvement. That’s the problem here. This hip became popular mostly because of fearmongering caused by few hotspots that cheated in the most blatant and ridiculous way with long distance witnesses. I’ve yet to see some numbers on how many cheaters were and what damage were they doing in terms of HNT siphoned, but i would bet there are more legit setups affected by it and more HNT distributed away from them than the HNT stolen. And then, when people realized 3 cheaters is a pretty pathetic excuse for a hip, they pushed forward the aberrant “sensors don’t reach over 100km anyway” excuse.
👎 1
Avatar
Avatar
GH05TZZ
I’ve installed some hotspots on top of mountains at 1800m height to cover large area, it was witnessed 4-5 big cities and all surrounding hotspots at over 200km without cheating, now it will be a lonely wolf
And this makes sense just like in our case of radio signal travelling over water.
Avatar
Avatar
GH05TZZ
I’ve installed some hotspots on top of mountains at 1800m height to cover large area, it was witnessed 4-5 big cities and all surrounding hotspots at over 200km without cheating, now it will be a lonely wolf
Problem is, would a temperature sensor (for example) in one of those cities be able to see your spot (tiny antenna)? even if it did it would use a local one in that city. (edited)
Avatar
but i would bet there are more legit setups affected by it and more HNT distributed away from them than the HNT stolen.
@belzebut : That may be true, I'm not sure. I didn't vote on this because I wasn't sure. I bet the folks on #data-analysis could help determine which likely-gamer hotspots have been zero'd out because of this and how much they made before this change compared to how much the likely-legit spots are getting penalized now. If you have that, another HIP proposing a new limit backed up by this data would probably be very popular!
Avatar
Avatar
12Evgeny
And this makes sense just like in our case of radio signal travelling over water.
Network is built for sensors. They won’t use your hs over 200 km of water.
👆 1
Avatar
Avatar
backtran
Problem is, would a temperature sensor (for example) in one of those cities be able to see your spot (tiny antenna)? even if it did it would use a local one in that city. (edited)
But we also have to think about Tokenization model and network, right?
Avatar
It is what it is, from what I’ve seen after a bad change in here no one reverted it, things are getting worst day by day, rewards are getting lower, network getting slower and more and more cheaters are withdrawn hnt from our pot
Avatar
Avatar
backtran
Network is built for sensors. They won’t use your hs over 200 km of water.
Why not? Plenty of yachts around
Avatar
Avatar
12Evgeny
But we also have to think about Tokenization model and network, right?
Network and rewards have to reflect the possible of sensors. Not giant antennas talking to each other. In my opinion
💯 1
Avatar
Avatar
12Evgeny
Why not? Plenty of yachts around
And plenty forest to monitor
👍 1
Avatar
Avatar
GH05TZZ
And plenty forest to monitor
That’s closer in I guess
Avatar
Avatar
backtran
Network and rewards have to reflect the possible of sensors. Not giant antennas talking to each other. In my opinion
Network has to reflect the white paper and promised business model
Avatar
Avatar
12Evgeny
Network has to reflect the white paper and promised business model
If it ends up giant antennas talking to each other then rewards are skewed to non coverage
💯 1
Avatar
Avatar
GH05TZZ
my hotspots are making $1-5 a day
RosePatents 04/16/2022 8:36 AM
That is $30 to $150/month? Aside from that being an enormous range, why isn't that making you a profit? Say you spent $500 on the hotspot, plus another $250 on stuff. Your fixed cost is $750, and ignoring your variable cost for the moment (electricity, Internet, etc.) your ROI comes at five to 25 months. After your investment is covered, everything is profit, no?
Avatar
Avatar
12Evgeny
Network has to reflect the white paper and promised business model
How is this deviating?
Avatar
Avatar
backtran
How is this deviating?
In a sense that valid witnessing gets invalidated
Avatar
Avatar
12Evgeny
Why not? Plenty of yachts around
This hip does not restrict sensor range. If a sensor comes along that can do that range… (edited)
👆 1
Avatar
Avatar
RosePatents
That is $30 to $150/month? Aside from that being an enormous range, why isn't that making you a profit? Say you spent $500 on the hotspot, plus another $250 on stuff. Your fixed cost is $750, and ignoring your variable cost for the moment (electricity, Internet, etc.) your ROI comes at five to 25 months. After your investment is covered, everything is profit, no?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/16/2022 8:39 AM
No ROI talk please #rules
Avatar
Avatar
12Evgeny
In a sense that valid witnessing gets invalidated
Chapter and verse please. In any case we voted on a HIP… it then becomes part of it (edited)
Avatar
Avatar
krby
but i would bet there are more legit setups affected by it and more HNT distributed away from them than the HNT stolen.
@belzebut : That may be true, I'm not sure. I didn't vote on this because I wasn't sure. I bet the folks on #data-analysis could help determine which likely-gamer hotspots have been zero'd out because of this and how much they made before this change compared to how much the likely-legit spots are getting penalized now. If you have that, another HIP proposing a new limit backed up by this data would probably be very popular!
The minimum amount of reward units for a witness is 0.12, the maximum is 1.0. Less than 1% of all witnesses were hit by this, that includes all the gamers. The maximum reward vs witness amount ratio will be around 10(due to the reward units) so in a perfect world (for the naysayers) at most 10% of the rewards can be rejected due to this hip. Including the gamers. I’m mobile at the moment and can do some more calcs later but I think the effect on the collective is much less than this channel seems to indicate. (edited)
👆 3
💯 2
Avatar
Avatar
backtran
This hip does not restrict sensor range. If a sensor comes along that can do that range… (edited)
08:41
This is what i mean, just that
Avatar
Network is getting changed by people who have no clue what they vote. They vote because they are frustrated with their setup stock antenna and maybe the hotspot in basement and they are thinking let’s stop this guys who make money who have good setup and antennas high on tower, mountains, roofs, top of blocks. But we have made sacrifices to get these installed not only trowing a hotspot near to our routers. I’m paying mobile broadband just for hotspot, I’m having solar panels, battery, pay rent for some locations
👎 2
Avatar
Avatar
groot
The minimum amount of reward units for a witness is 0.12, the maximum is 1.0. Less than 1% of all witnesses were hit by this, that includes all the gamers. The maximum reward vs witness amount ratio will be around 10(due to the reward units) so in a perfect world (for the naysayers) at most 10% of the rewards can be rejected due to this hip. Including the gamers. I’m mobile at the moment and can do some more calcs later but I think the effect on the collective is much less than this channel seems to indicate. (edited)
Right, but my point is that the folks with legit setups who are affected could bring another HIP backed with data that to change the on chain variable.
Avatar
Avatar
12Evgeny
Click to see attachment 🖼️
This one would likely also be ‘rssi too high’
Avatar
Avatar
12Evgeny
Click to see attachment 🖼️
That’s not a sensor. You seem to be confused about the difference between sensors and hotspots
💯 1
Avatar
Avatar
GH05TZZ
Network is getting changed by people who have no clue what they vote. They vote because they are frustrated with their setup stock antenna and maybe the hotspot in basement and they are thinking let’s stop this guys who make money who have good setup and antennas high on tower, mountains, roofs, top of blocks. But we have made sacrifices to get these installed not only trowing a hotspot near to our routers. I’m paying mobile broadband just for hotspot, I’m having solar panels, battery, pay rent for some locations
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/16/2022 8:43 AM
You assume what people are thinking. You built for poc, not for the end goal of the network. The network rewards those that provide useful coverage.
👎 1
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
You assume what people are thinking. You built for poc, not for the end goal of the network. The network rewards those that provide useful coverage.
And what? I build for poc like 99% others
Avatar
Avatar
backtran
That’s not a sensor. You seem to be confused about the difference between sensors and hotspots
What I'm talking about here is poc concept, right?
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
You assume what people are thinking. You built for poc, not for the end goal of the network. The network rewards those that provide useful coverage.
Define useful coverage please?
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
You assume what people are thinking. You built for poc, not for the end goal of the network. The network rewards those that provide useful coverage.
I built because I can and not lied like others who are doing it for community. It is called mining not charity
Avatar
Avatar
GH05TZZ
Network is getting changed by people who have no clue what they vote. They vote because they are frustrated with their setup stock antenna and maybe the hotspot in basement and they are thinking let’s stop this guys who make money who have good setup and antennas high on tower, mountains, roofs, top of blocks. But we have made sacrifices to get these installed not only trowing a hotspot near to our routers. I’m paying mobile broadband just for hotspot, I’m having solar panels, battery, pay rent for some locations
Yup, you are in a community that has a variety of people with varying levels of effort and expectation. It sucks sometimes. Voting/Rules/Governance is hard when such a variety exists.
🤝 1
Avatar
Avatar
12Evgeny
Define useful coverage please?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/16/2022 8:45 AM
Sensors
Avatar
Avatar
GH05TZZ
And what? I build for poc like 99% others
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/16/2022 8:46 AM
Milking poc
🤮 1
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Sensors
Is it a part of the white paper?
Avatar
Avatar
12Evgeny
Is it a part of the white paper?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/16/2022 8:46 AM
Have you read it? 🙂
Avatar
Avatar
12Evgeny
Is it a part of the white paper?
You’re just going to skip over the fact that you provided a beacon that was invalid anyway?😂
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Have you read it? 🙂
Yes, before soending 1k euro on setup. But why i joined is not for immediate gains, but future possibilities
Avatar
Avatar
12Evgeny
What I'm talking about here is poc concept, right?
I’m done😀 Try the white paper again. Though I do understand your frustration.
Avatar
Avatar
12Evgeny
Yes, before soending 1k euro on setup. But why i joined is not for immediate gains, but future possibilities
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/16/2022 8:47 AM
Glad to hear you're on board with this hip then. 🙂
👍 1
Avatar
Avatar
groot
You’re just going to skip over the fact that you provided a beacon that was invalid anyway?😂
I'm not that familiar with all tech details, but every time Cyprus talks to neighbour, it gets invalidated based on distance
Avatar
I’ll have to look at the code but I think witness too far comes before rssi too high.
Avatar
Avatar
12Evgeny
I'm not that familiar with all tech details, but every time Cyprus talks to neighbour, it gets invalidated based on distance
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/16/2022 8:50 AM
The sensors in your neighbor will never be heard by you, so why do you feel like you should be rewarded for that "coverage"?
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Glad to hear you're on board with this hip then. 🙂
But the question remains - distance based invalidation where it is valid by the phisics
Avatar
Avatar
12Evgeny
But the question remains - distance based invalidation where it is valid by the phisics
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/16/2022 8:51 AM
Again, the physics dictate that you will never hear the sensors over there (edited)
Avatar
Would be great to understand this one please
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Again, the physics dictate that you will never hear the sensors over there (edited)
I understand...but HS does what it has to do, right?
Avatar
Avatar
12Evgeny
Would be great to understand this one please
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/16/2022 8:52 AM
Your hotspot "yells". Sensors "whisper". Unless you're closer, you won't hear them. (edited)
Avatar
My only concern is that valid signal gets invalidated, full stop=) I'm not against hip-58, but there are situations where 100km distance is valid, right?
Avatar
Avatar
12Evgeny
My only concern is that valid signal gets invalidated, full stop=) I'm not against hip-58, but there are situations where 100km distance is valid, right?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/16/2022 8:53 AM
Poc is " proof of coverage of sensors".
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Poc is " proof of coverage of sensors".
But then we can say exactly the same about 50km, 30 km etc...depends how far you want to take it
Avatar
Avatar
12Evgeny
But then we can say exactly the same about 50km, 30 km etc...depends how far you want to take it
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/16/2022 8:55 AM
Sensors can only be heard from so far.
08:55
The point of the network it's to hear those sensors
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Sensors can only be heard from so far.
yes, thats exactly my point with distances=)
08:56
We can limit all signals to just the neighbourhood of 5km...right?
👎 1
Avatar
Avatar
12Evgeny
yes, thats exactly my point with distances=)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/16/2022 8:56 AM
Your hotspot on cypress will never hear a sensor 100km away
Avatar
Code will do that easily
Avatar
Avatar
12Evgeny
We can limit all signals to just the neighbourhood of 5km...right?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/16/2022 8:57 AM
Why would we do that? Sensors reach farther than that
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Why would we do that? Sensors reach farther than that
What's the sensor's limit?
Avatar
Avatar
12Evgeny
What's the sensor's limit?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/16/2022 8:57 AM
Read the hip
Avatar
I haven't seen Nebra talking about this distance
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/16/2022 8:57 AM
The data is there
Avatar
Avatar
12Evgeny
I haven't seen Nebra talking about this distance
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/16/2022 8:58 AM
Nebra has nothing to do with this 🤨 (edited)
Avatar
In any way, I see that raising a question got a lot of resistance rather than open mindness...
08:59
Thanks any way guys...
Avatar
Avatar
12Evgeny
In any way, I see that raising a question got a lot of resistance rather than open mindness...
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/16/2022 8:59 AM
Resistances based on facts
Avatar
Set mind is a closed one...
Avatar
Avatar
12Evgeny
We can limit all signals to just the neighbourhood of 5km...right?
For PoC I honestly think res 8 or 7 should be the max witness distance but people are annoyed with 100km so no chance in hell they’d want that restriction….
👍 2
Avatar
At some point Earth was thought of as Flat
Avatar
Avatar
12Evgeny
Set mind is a closed one...
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/16/2022 9:00 AM
Facts...
Avatar
Avatar
Anthonyra
For PoC I honestly think res 8 or 7 should be the max witness distance but people are annoyed with 100km so no chance in hell they’d want that restriction….
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/16/2022 9:01 AM
Lol yeah, that would never fly, and frankly I have never gotten your logic on that one. 😉
Avatar
I figured that=)
09:01
Enjoy your days gentlemen=)
🙂 1
Avatar
Avatar
12Evgeny
Enjoy your days gentlemen=)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/16/2022 9:01 AM
You as well 🙂
Avatar
Avatar
Anthonyra
For PoC I honestly think res 8 or 7 should be the max witness distance but people are annoyed with 100km so no chance in hell they’d want that restriction….
Res 8 is only 950 meters or something right?
Avatar
Avatar
groot
Res 8 is only 950 meters or something right?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/16/2022 9:03 AM
Sounds about right
Avatar
Avatar
groot
Res 8 is only 950 meters or something right?
It’d be a ring of res 8 but yea super small.. but it’s really all that’s needed for sensors to work. If all res 7 are ensured to be covered then all hexes would eventually be covered 😅 (edited)
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/16/2022 9:05 AM
If I had to guess, a res 7 limit would basically screw anyone outside of a major city
Avatar
One hotspot per res 8 like what HIP 17 suggests would be fine. I actually think cities would be hit harder.
Avatar
I think res 7 is so small it promotes clusters, but that’s just one man’s opinion
💯 1
Avatar
Avatar
Anthonyra
One hotspot per res 8 like what HIP 17 suggests would be fine. I actually think cities would be hit harder.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/16/2022 9:06 AM
Well that's a different matter. That's a hip 17 edit :)
09:08
100km seems a sweet spot between useful coverage and rewarding network expansion
Avatar
Avatar
Anthonyra
It’d be a ring of res 8 but yea super small.. but it’s really all that’s needed for sensors to work. If all res 7 are ensured to be covered then all hexes would eventually be covered 😅 (edited)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/16/2022 9:09 AM
That would be a lot of offgrids lol
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
That would be a lot of offgrids lol
🤷🏻‍♂️ I have a feeling we are just delaying the inevitable and once PoC is gone so will Helium. I have yet to see a hotspot average 225k DC a day (which is needed to replace the 0.9% challenger reward).. (edited)
Avatar
Avatar
Anthonyra
🤷🏻‍♂️ I have a feeling we are just delaying the inevitable and once PoC is gone so will Helium. I have yet to see a hotspot average 225k DC a day (which is needed to replace the 0.9% challenger reward).. (edited)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/16/2022 9:13 AM
Perhaps, but poc is not gone until about 20 years from now, so I think there is time. 😉
09:14
But yes, we need more dc for sure.
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Perhaps, but poc is not gone until about 20 years from now, so I think there is time. 😉
Sure the pot doesn't disappear for 20 years but enough halvenings will make it go away quicker in regards to each operator
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/16/2022 9:14 AM
True
09:14
We need 5g to take off
Avatar
We have probably 3 by the time next token halvening happens at this current pace and 5G roll out
👍 2
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/16/2022 9:16 AM
And also, lower token rewards are fine long as token value keeps up.
Avatar
Avatar
Anthonyra
Sure the pot doesn't disappear for 20 years but enough halvenings will make it go away quicker in regards to each operator
Thing is, in 5-20 years. Why would people not still have these running, there is no advantage to disconnect them.... there is still coverage in most critical areas. Areas where businesses are actually using the hotspots will stay alive. Will they go out of their way to fix? Maybe not as they have become disinterested, and rewards will slowly stabilize as the hotspot death rate exceeds the setup of new hotspots (assuming gaming is not out of control still) (edited)
Avatar
Avatar
Fizzy
Thing is, in 5-20 years. Why would people not still have these running, there is no advantage to disconnect them.... there is still coverage in most critical areas. Areas where businesses are actually using the hotspots will stay alive. Will they go out of their way to fix? Maybe not as they have become disinterested, and rewards will slowly stabilize as the hotspot death rate exceeds the setup of new hotspots (assuming gaming is not out of control still) (edited)
I only see this as true for self hosted hotspots. If it makes less then what's being paid out per month it'd be cheaper to retire them.
Avatar
Avatar
Anthonyra
I only see this as true for self hosted hotspots. If it makes less then what's being paid out per month it'd be cheaper to retire them.
Then out of no where THIS HUGE THING HAPPENS; and then everyone is wishing they had more HNT in their wallet.
Avatar
Doesn't everyone already wishes they had more? 😅 I'm seeing a much shorter runway is all then some it seems. I also can just see operators following the new protocol on the block while dumping the old but we will just have to wait and see... I hope I'm wrong
Avatar
Avatar
Anthonyra
I only see this as true for self hosted hotspots. If it makes less then what's being paid out per month it'd be cheaper to retire them.
I mean, you were early enough to see that happen once, whos to say it can not happen again lol.
Avatar
Avatar
Anthonyra
Doesn't everyone already wishes they had more? 😅 I'm seeing a much shorter runway is all then some it seems. I also can just see operators following the new protocol on the block while dumping the old but we will just have to wait and see... I hope I'm wrong
Well imo, all new protocols will have lora as a base, so it will always be a "Shinny Penny, but not as good as a shiny Quarter". is the best way to put it. But HNT is HNT, will scoop it up no matter what protocol it comes from.
👍 1
Avatar
Avatar
Anthonyra
For PoC I honestly think res 8 or 7 should be the max witness distance but people are annoyed with 100km so no chance in hell they’d want that restriction….
I don't think you actually meant what you said here, Res 7 is like 2,5km side to side, you would have no network with such rules.
Avatar
Avatar
Anthonyra
I only see this as true for self hosted hotspots. If it makes less then what's being paid out per month it'd be cheaper to retire them.
Depends on the setup with the host doesn’t it? If you are paying them in fiat, sure, but if you just do a split then it’s something different, esp if there are friendly.
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Poc is " proof of coverage of sensors".
Really?! Then Helium network is a "scam". 😦
🤷‍♂️ 1
facepalm 1
👎 1
🤡 1
Avatar
Avatar
Milan
Really?! Then Helium network is a "scam". 😦
Don't mind him, he is totally clueless about everything. And it seems many people here don't know what PoC is. "The Helium blockchain uses a novel work algorithm called “Proof of Coverage” (PoC) to verify that Hotspots are located where they claim. Put another way, PoC tries to verify, on an ongoing basis, that Hotspots are honestly representing their location and the wireless network coverage they are creating from that location."
10:21
https://docs.helium.com/blockchain/proof-of-coverage/ you won't even find the word sensor in there
The Helium blockchain uses a novel work algorithm called “Proof of Coverage”
facepalm 1
Avatar
Avatar
Milan
Really?! Then Helium network is a "scam". 😦
Don’t know how you got there 🤷‍♂️
Avatar
Avatar
belzebut
Don't mind him, he is totally clueless about everything. And it seems many people here don't know what PoC is. "The Helium blockchain uses a novel work algorithm called “Proof of Coverage” (PoC) to verify that Hotspots are located where they claim. Put another way, PoC tries to verify, on an ongoing basis, that Hotspots are honestly representing their location and the wireless network coverage they are creating from that location."
And that “wireless network coverage” use case is for sensors. Instead of using the “sensor” word it says “connected devices”, in the same document you linked. (edited)
👆 2
Avatar
Avatar
GH05TZZ
Network is getting changed by people who have no clue what they vote. They vote because they are frustrated with their setup stock antenna and maybe the hotspot in basement and they are thinking let’s stop this guys who make money who have good setup and antennas high on tower, mountains, roofs, top of blocks. But we have made sacrifices to get these installed not only trowing a hotspot near to our routers. I’m paying mobile broadband just for hotspot, I’m having solar panels, battery, pay rent for some locations
Why you have to be insulting so many of us? I am not sure I could be more involved, more engaged, or putting much more effort into good setups. I only use a stock antenna while I am staging the hotspots before install (well, because you need to have one on there). I climb roofs, make deals with commercial buildings, and fly out of town to do a string of installs. I have hotspots in four states and two countries. And I voted for this HIP enthusiastically. And every time I had a chance to milk the PoC algorithm, I took the path that kept my hotspots within range of where the future sensor data will be; knowing full well that a dog collar, Lime bike, garden sensor, door sensor do not go further than 10km. And guess what, only one or two of my hotspots have been affected one or two times so far by this HIP.
💯 2
❤️ 2
Avatar
Avatar
backtran
And that “wireless network coverage” use case is for sensors. Instead of using the “sensor” word it says “connected devices”, in the same document you linked. (edited)
Look, i made this argument over and over. It’s completely irrelevant what the range of the sensor is. The white paper states clearly that PoC’s purpose is to prove location and coverage. What importance does a sensor’s range play in that ???
👍 3
facepalm 1
🤦‍♂️ 1
👎 1
Avatar
Just passing to say happy Easter everyone regardles hip58 opinions!😉 👍
Avatar
Repeating an refuted argument over and over doesn’t make it true, nor change peoples minds😉
💯 4
👆 4
Avatar
Avatar
Milan
Really?! Then Helium network is a "scam". 😦
Don’t know how you got there 🤷‍♂️
Avatar
Avatar
belzebut
Look, i made this argument over and over. It’s completely irrelevant what the range of the sensor is. The white paper states clearly that PoC’s purpose is to prove location and coverage. What importance does a sensor’s range play in that ???
You said the linked document did not use the word sensor. You overlook it uses a phrase that means the same thing. To wit: „Why Proof of Coverage? The Helium Network is a physical wireless network that succeeds based on the amount of reliable coverage it can create for users deploying connected devices on it.“ Connected Devices.
Avatar
Avatar
belzebut
Look, i made this argument over and over. It’s completely irrelevant what the range of the sensor is. The white paper states clearly that PoC’s purpose is to prove location and coverage. What importance does a sensor’s range play in that ???
It is harder to prove hotspots from long distances. Its like you guys have not seen a movie with triangulation before.
12:44
😂 2
❤️ 4
Avatar
The Hip-58 100km limit may be correct, but the 100km and above signals being added to the 14-man bounty list is ridiculous. Half of the beacons are wasted and it's unfair.. Signals over 100 km should definitely be removed from the award list..
Avatar
Avatar
Herzlos
The Hip-58 100km limit may be correct, but the 100km and above signals being added to the 14-man bounty list is ridiculous. Half of the beacons are wasted and it's unfair.. Signals over 100 km should definitely be removed from the award list..
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/16/2022 3:14 PM
Write a hip amendment 🙂
Avatar
Original message was deleted or could not be loaded.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/16/2022 3:16 PM
Wasn't useful coverage. You get rewarded for useful coverage. 🤷‍♂️
Avatar
Avatar
Fizzy
It is harder to prove hotspots from long distances. Its like you guys have not seen a movie with triangulation before.
Triangulation? Where did you are seeing hotspots with directed antennas that are able to rotate at demand? Maybe you mean 'Trilateration' instead? Educate yourself about RF things.
Avatar
Avatar
Milan
Triangulation? Where did you are seeing hotspots with directed antennas that are able to rotate at demand? Maybe you mean 'Trilateration' instead? Educate yourself about RF things.
Nope, I did not mean that. As I said, harder to measure long distances.
Avatar
Original message was deleted or could not be loaded.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/16/2022 3:23 PM
You're not going to pick up a sensor from there...
Avatar
Original message was deleted or could not be loaded.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/16/2022 3:24 PM
Decentralized means it's not all about you.
💯 2
Avatar
Original message was deleted or could not be loaded.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/16/2022 3:30 PM
Yes. And on the off chance you do happen to pick up the signal, someone else will have already gotten the reward for that data.
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Yes. And on the off chance you do happen to pick up the signal, someone else will have already gotten the reward for that data.
How? By shorter distance measuring in nanoseconds? Or by 'already' you mean someone has better internet with low latency (ping time)? Or the whole system picking up the best reported signals? (edited)
Avatar
Avatar
Milan
How? By shorter distance measuring in nanoseconds? Or by 'already' you mean someone has better internet with low latency (ping time)? Or the whole system picking up the best reported signals? (edited)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/16/2022 3:42 PM
First to report gets DC rewards. a 130km and a 30km... 30km wins
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
First to report gets DC rewards. a 130km and a 30km... 30km wins
Not always. Sometimes receiver antenna does not receive no matter at which distance. Considering emitting device in a radio shadow, or receiver receiving direct and reflected wave out of phase, so cancelling out. Also, I am mapping a lot, and in front of my house where is my hotspot - usually someone else picking up signal rather than my hotspot. And that other hotspot can be far away.
facepalm 1
Avatar
İts very bad. How can we stop the witnessing with far hotspots. İt ok about 200 km but 100 is too low
👎 1
Avatar
Avatar
Milan
Not always. Sometimes receiver antenna does not receive no matter at which distance. Considering emitting device in a radio shadow, or receiver receiving direct and reflected wave out of phase, so cancelling out. Also, I am mapping a lot, and in front of my house where is my hotspot - usually someone else picking up signal rather than my hotspot. And that other hotspot can be far away.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/16/2022 3:46 PM
Yes, we know edge cases exist. We do not build the network to accommodate them all.
Avatar
Avatar
Bcagatay53
İts very bad. How can we stop the witnessing with far hotspots. İt ok about 200 km but 100 is too low
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/16/2022 3:46 PM
Read the HIP
Avatar
Avatar
Bcagatay53
İts very bad. How can we stop the witnessing with far hotspots. İt ok about 200 km but 100 is too low
Why is it ok? Why is 100 too low? If you say your hotspots... 🖐 (edited)
😄 1
Avatar
Avatar
Fizzy
Why is it ok? Why is 100 too low? If you say your hotspots... 🖐 (edited)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/16/2022 3:51 PM
Avatar
Avatar
belzebut
Look, i made this argument over and over. It’s completely irrelevant what the range of the sensor is. The white paper states clearly that PoC’s purpose is to prove location and coverage. What importance does a sensor’s range play in that ???
this is why PoC should be changed to be device/sensor based. a network of hotspots pinging each other is useless if sensors don't have the same coverage area. i've never understood this argument or why people keep making it
💯 4
Avatar
Avatar
capcom
this is why PoC should be changed to be device/sensor based. a network of hotspots pinging each other is useless if sensors don't have the same coverage area. i've never understood this argument or why people keep making it
That is okay if device/sensor has GPS in it. I have Glamos testing device with GPS and reporting RSSI and SNR of the hotspots that received that signal. Then there is table where it is Glamos device providing PoC, but only down to -124 dBm.
16:13
Then, what is with devices that has no GPS in it? What is with those devices/sensors missing in my area? So far, in my town there is four (4) devices owned by me. Where are those devices/sensors?
Avatar
Sensitivity will depend on the SF used
Avatar
Avatar
capcom
Sensitivity will depend on the SF used
I know that. I am arguing about missing amount of devices/sensors available at the moment. All I have is Draguino tracker, two TTGO TTN mappers and one Glamos device. Once there will be more devices/sensors with GPS, current PoC by 'pinging' hotspot to hotspot' maybe no longer needed. Until then, please remove that HIP58, it hurt people.
👎 2
Avatar
Avatar
capcom
this is why PoC should be changed to be device/sensor based. a network of hotspots pinging each other is useless if sensors don't have the same coverage area. i've never understood this argument or why people keep making it
Then make it 50 km for transmit scale 1.00, 25 km for 0.50...etc
Avatar
Avatar
Nian
Then make it 50 km for transmit scale 1.00, 25 km for 0.50...etc
I didn’t write this HIP, if you have better ideas you should write them up
Avatar
Writing it is easy, but convincing others that its actually better for them isn't
😏 1
Avatar
Avatar
Nian
Writing it is easy, but convincing others that its actually better for them isn't
True.
Avatar
Avatar
Milan
True.
It'll be better for you and the network if we targeted the dense areas. More hotspots will appear in your area
Avatar
HIP58 will not stop gamers. They will assert their virtual hotspots at big cities and change software to accommodate to new 'rules'. It just hurt people with good setups.
👍 2
👎 1
Avatar
And my idea will make it 'not worth it' for most gamers
👍 1
Avatar
Avatar
Nian
And my idea will make it 'not worth it' for most gamers
Would love to see it
👍 2
Avatar
Avatar
Fizzy
Why is it ok? Why is 100 too low? If you say your hotspots... 🖐 (edited)
Agreeable Honeysuckle Barbel is my hotspot. I order 8dbi antenna for the me between Hotspots in Georgia seaside hotspots. In my city there are 9 hotspots. Now i witnessed batumis hotspots but they are all invalid. And cheaters witness distance mostly starts at 200 km. How can i stop witness from far hotspot and why must i do it.
Avatar
Avatar
Bcagatay53
Agreeable Honeysuckle Barbel is my hotspot. I order 8dbi antenna for the me between Hotspots in Georgia seaside hotspots. In my city there are 9 hotspots. Now i witnessed batumis hotspots but they are all invalid. And cheaters witness distance mostly starts at 200 km. How can i stop witness from far hotspot and why must i do it.
Most cheater are 200km+? Do you have data on that? The people that made this hip think otherwise.
Avatar
Avatar
Fizzy
Most cheater are 200km+? Do you have data on that? The people that made this hip think otherwise.
And after the hip58. My and nearest hotspots just witnessed with far away hotspots and make invalid witness (edited)
Avatar
Avatar
Bcagatay53
And after the hip58. My and nearest hotspots just witnessed with far away hotspots and make invalid witness (edited)
:))
Avatar
Avatar
Bcagatay53
Agreeable Honeysuckle Barbel is my hotspot. I order 8dbi antenna for the me between Hotspots in Georgia seaside hotspots. In my city there are 9 hotspots. Now i witnessed batumis hotspots but they are all invalid. And cheaters witness distance mostly starts at 200 km. How can i stop witness from far hotspot and why must i do it.
This is excellent case where device/sensor might be on the sinking boat, broadcasting 'SOS' signals, and there is no hotspots in between as someone here claims.
Avatar
Avatar
Herzlos
:))
Bunlarla konusuyoruz ama bi ise yarar mi bilemedm
Avatar
Avatar
Bcagatay53
And after the hip58. My and nearest hotspots just witnessed with far away hotspots and make invalid witness (edited)
This has been posted before, this is not your data.
Avatar
Avatar
Bcagatay53
Bunlarla konusuyoruz ama bi ise yarar mi bilemedm
Az önce bende yazdım ama sanmıyorumki bi yetkili baksın buraya..
Avatar
Avatar
Bcagatay53
And after the hip58. My and nearest hotspots just witnessed with far away hotspots and make invalid witness (edited)
someone with 300-350 km is just going to come along and say that it is not fair, what then?
Avatar
Avatar
Fizzy
This has been posted before, this is not your data.
What kind of data do you need. You can look my and nearest hotspots activity. You will understand.
Avatar
Avatar
Bcagatay53
What kind of data do you need. You can look my and nearest hotspots activity. You will understand.
"Most cheating hotspots are over 200km"; What if I say, Most NON-cheating hotspots are UNDER 100km? (edited)
👆 2
Avatar
Avatar
Fizzy
someone with 300-350 km is just going to come along and say that it is not fair, what then?
300-350 is impossible with normal hotspot system. But there are too much place which distance 100 km.
Avatar
Avatar
Fizzy
"Most cheating hotspots are over 200km"; What if I say, Most NON-cheating hotspots are UNDER 100km? (edited)
So now can they stop the cheaters. Dont u see the chart. You can see the denylist mostly over 200 (edited)
Avatar
Avatar
Bcagatay53
So now can they stop the cheaters. Dont u see the chart. You can see the denylist mostly over 200 (edited)
1 HIP at a time.
Avatar
HIP58 is made to punish honest people. Instead, there should be 'too far hotspot' warning notifications to the validators that can quickly review this results.
👎 2
Avatar
Avatar
Fizzy
"Most cheating hotspots are over 200km"; What if I say, Most NON-cheating hotspots are UNDER 100km? (edited)
Find another way to fight cheating not by cutting the poc from legit transactions
👍 1
👎 1
Avatar
Avatar
Milan
HIP58 is made to punish honest people. Instead, there should be 'too far hotspot' warning notifications to the validators that can quickly review this results.
oooof, caught em. thats what they were planning all along. hurt honest people. 🙄
😆 1
Avatar
Avatar
Fizzy
1 HIP at a time.
Can u tell me how can i stop the witness with the far hotspots. Why are they invalid. They can make it no witness no invalid.
17:29
My english is not good sorry about that
Avatar
Avatar
Fizzy
oooof, caught em. thats what they were planning all along. hurt honest people. 🙄
The Hip-58 100km limit may be correct, but adding signals of 100km and above to the 14-man reward list is ridiculous. Half of the signs are wasted and it's unfair. Signals over 100 km should definitely be removed from the award list. Or the limit should be 200 km.
Avatar
Make another hip and pay everyone equal let’s say 2usd a day. Then you will get no cheaters and 50 meters coverage from all hotspots. No one will bother to build powerful antennas and high towers (edited)
Avatar
Avatar
GH05TZZ
Make another hip and pay everyone equal let’s say 2usd a day. Then you will get no cheaters and 50 meters coverage from all hotspots. No one will bother to build powerful antennas and high towers (edited)
I am not sure about that. I am HAM radio enthusiast, and it is my passion to make the best setup possible.
Avatar
Avatar
Herzlos
The Hip-58 100km limit may be correct, but adding signals of 100km and above to the 14-man reward list is ridiculous. Half of the signs are wasted and it's unfair. Signals over 100 km should definitely be removed from the award list. Or the limit should be 200 km.
İ participate him. My hotspot will be trash
Avatar
You will be able to track the dogs more precisely
Avatar
Avatar
Milan
I am not sure about that. I am HAM radio enthusiast, and it is my passion to make the best setup possible.
Same for me, every hour I loose one whiteness 110-220km
17:34
But if they want all of us to put the hotspot next to the router in basement we can do
17:35
We can also remove the antennas to make the tracking more accurate
17:35
😂😂😂
Avatar
I want to tell my trouble about the distance to helium team. Can you help me about that. Distance is ok but it wouldnt 100 km. İt will 150-200. Where can i write it
Avatar
Last week I’ve had 260km witness
17:37
But that happen once in a year
17:37
120-150 happens every day
Avatar
DigitalHuevos🥚 04/16/2022 5:39 PM
You guys realize this is a done deal already yes? I get voicing opinion once but over and over on something that's done. Just kinda wasting energy imo. (edited)
👍 1
Avatar
Avatar
DigitalHuevos🥚
You guys realize this is a done deal already yes? I get voicing opinion once but over and over on something that's done. Just kinda wasting energy imo. (edited)
You are right
17:40
Unfortunately
Avatar
DigitalHuevos🥚 04/16/2022 5:40 PM
Time to optimize for current conditions.... Move forward.
💯 1
Avatar
Same like other stupid hips
👎 1
Avatar
Avatar
DigitalHuevos🥚
You guys realize this is a done deal already yes? I get voicing opinion once but over and over on something that's done. Just kinda wasting energy imo. (edited)
Yess but it can be improved
Avatar
The game goes from bad to very bad
Avatar
Avatar
Bcagatay53
Yess but it can be improved
DigitalHuevos🥚 04/16/2022 5:41 PM
Not by complaining. By writing another hip yes. (edited)
17:41
It was voted on. You have to remember that.
👆 2
Avatar
Rewards getting lower and lower
17:42
Looks like a ponzi scheme
👎 2
facepalm 2
17:42
Soon will be no rewards
Avatar
DigitalHuevos🥚 04/16/2022 5:42 PM
Pull the chute and check out if you aren't happy then?
Avatar
I’m in already, hope I’m wrong thinking that
Avatar
DigitalHuevos🥚 04/16/2022 5:43 PM
Things that stress me out in life I get rid of personally. (edited)
17:43
Hense my first wife
😂 4
Avatar
Avatar
Herzlos
The Hip-58 100km limit may be correct, but adding signals of 100km and above to the 14-man reward list is ridiculous. Half of the signs are wasted and it's unfair. Signals over 100 km should definitely be removed from the award list. Or the limit should be 200 km.
I agree to this. The code is not right, and 100km should be ignored and the witness go to someone under 100km.
Avatar
Avatar
DigitalHuevos🥚
Not by complaining. By writing another hip yes. (edited)
İ dont complain. Just want to improve the km
Avatar
Avatar
Bcagatay53
İ dont complain. Just want to improve the km
DigitalHuevos🥚 04/16/2022 5:44 PM
You can't buy talking about it saying it's no good.
Avatar
Avatar
Fizzy
I agree to this. The code is not right, and 100km should be ignored and the witness go to someone under 100km.
Then we have to announce this to the authorities, but how?
😄 1
Avatar
Avatar
DigitalHuevos🥚
You can't buy talking about it saying it's no good.
İm telling the desicions about problem
Avatar
Avatar
Bcagatay53
İm telling the desicions about problem
DigitalHuevos🥚 04/16/2022 5:46 PM
Write a new hip proposal to increase the limit. That's the only way.
👆 1
Avatar
150 will be fair
Avatar
Avatar
DigitalHuevos🥚
Write a new hip proposal to increase the limit. That's the only way.
Where must i write?
Avatar
In my opinion
Avatar
Hoe can i write new hip. İ dont now it
Avatar
Avatar
Bcagatay53
Hoe can i write new hip. İ dont now it
DigitalHuevos🥚 04/16/2022 5:47 PM
Helium Improvement Proposals. Contribute to helium/HIP development by creating an account on GitHub.
Avatar
But grandma with the hotspot in her window will not vote for increase. If she earn low why should we earn more?
🙄 1
Avatar
It is matter of time when new gamer will appear with adapted software for gaming, in which will be included 100 km limit. Known gamer did not yet implemented it, but maybe will soon: https://explorer.helium.com/hotspots/11hsyViz32idrBHSrX4V5rdwwQJaZB4YnyV5vCkXVcfRTS8uYhj
Helium Explorer is a Block Explorer and Analytics Platform for Helium, a decentralized wireless connectivity platform
Avatar
Avatar
GH05TZZ
But grandma with the hotspot in her window will not vote for increase. If she earn low why should we earn more?
DigitalHuevos🥚 04/16/2022 5:48 PM
She won't vote at all to be honest. 95 percent dont. (edited)
👆 1
Avatar
I’ve had my beacon stolen by someone at 800km few days ago. Maybe 4 were from nearly same location around France and they all were on deny list alteady
Avatar
Avatar
GH05TZZ
But grandma with the hotspot in her window will not vote for increase. If she earn low why should we earn more?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/16/2022 6:07 PM
The same people that voted for 58 will be the same ones voting on your amendment.
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
The same people that voted for 58 will be the same ones voting on your amendment.
Give up… play somewhere else with your small antenna you are boring
Avatar
Avatar
GH05TZZ
Give up… play somewhere else with your small antenna you are boring
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/16/2022 6:09 PM
Give up... play somewhere else with your useless coverage area you are tedious.
Avatar
Your advise is not relevant
Avatar
Avatar
GH05TZZ
Your advise is not relevant
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/16/2022 6:10 PM
*advice
18:10
That doesn’t make u smarter
😆 1
Avatar
Avatar
GH05TZZ
That doesn’t make u smarter
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/16/2022 6:11 PM
You ignoring facts makes you something though...
Avatar
At least I can speak your language, you don’t know a word on mine
Avatar
Avatar
GH05TZZ
At least I can speak your language, you don’t know a word on mine
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/16/2022 6:11 PM
That is relevant to this HIP how exactly?
Avatar
What you are talking is not relevant either
18:12
Don’t know who you are and what u want but not interested
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/16/2022 6:12 PM
Look... you made your argument. The community disagreed with you (by a lot). If you don't like a decentralized project, maybe you should fork it and make your own.
💯 1
Avatar
Which community
18:13
Read all the others comments
Avatar
Avatar
GH05TZZ
Which community
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/16/2022 6:13 PM
The ones that voted over 90% for this HIP
Avatar
Avatar
GH05TZZ
Read all the others comments
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/16/2022 6:13 PM
A few loud voices does not make for a majority
Avatar
The ones with small antenna like yours
Avatar
Avatar
GH05TZZ
The ones with small antenna like yours
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/16/2022 6:14 PM
I have many antennas. Many sizes. Doesn't matter 🙂
Avatar
Avatar
GH05TZZ
Read all the others comments
we are looking at votes
💯 1
Avatar
Avatar
GH05TZZ
Read all the others comments
not the upset people after the fact.
Avatar
I know that
Avatar
Even the voting, turn out is sad.
👍 2
Avatar
Avatar
GH05TZZ
I know that
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/16/2022 6:15 PM
We've shown the the way. Make a hip. See if people will vote for it. It's that simple. 🙂
☝️ 2
Avatar
But tusk is full of arguments
Avatar
Avatar
GH05TZZ
But tusk is full of arguments
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/16/2022 6:16 PM
Yes. I debate my position just the same as you. What is wrong with that?
Avatar
HIP58 - 4,985 For ; 711 against. VS (edited)
18:17
And not all people join discord, sooo...
18:17
BUT; they do get that push notification on the app. (edited)
👍 2
Avatar
DigitalHuevos🥚 04/16/2022 6:18 PM
Basically the most hardcore users will vote😀. Others can't be bothered.
Avatar
Avatar
DigitalHuevos🥚
Basically the most hardcore users will vote😀. Others can't be bothered.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/16/2022 6:28 PM
Pretty much same with any voting 🙂
💯 2
Avatar
Avatar
Fizzy
we are looking at votes
Are you in helium team?
Avatar
Avatar
Bcagatay53
Are you in helium team?
No
Avatar
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸 04/16/2022 7:42 PM
Some voters were here trying to get their voices heard on the nay side. It appears that now it's passed people are becoming aware what HIP 58 was and now they are here voicing their displeasure. Unfortunately it doesn't work that way. Keep current on what is in the works and try to protect your rights as a Helium miner. Then vote and make sure your concerns are heard 😁👍😉
20:57
48:45 in case the timestamped link doesn't work right.
Avatar
Almost feels like they were listening into the conversation here. OR...what they, and us, are saying is simply the truth. 🙂
Avatar
Avatar
Fizzy
I agree to this. The code is not right, and 100km should be ignored and the witness go to someone under 100km.
Not sure hotspots have the means to even calc the distance for incoming witness receipts.
Avatar
Avatar
groot
Not sure hotspots have the means to even calc the distance for incoming witness receipts.
Good point. They don't since they don't store the entire Blockchain, so they don't have the location of all hotspots. I guess this is only doable after #hip-55-validator-challenges (edited)
Avatar
But my opinion is that no witness should be invalid, regardless of the reason. Instead that witness should be dropped. Yeah, we would lose some visibility, so we would need some off chain solution to store all witnesses of a beacon
Avatar
With enough witnesses it doesn’t really matter in the long run. Seeing how fast the db grows already I doubt you’re going to find people interested in storing those witnesses😉
Avatar
feuerkralle2011 04/17/2022 3:17 AM
You need to reason why we should increase it to 200km. Only because you've lost witnesses isn't a good argument 😉 (edited)
👍 1
Avatar
Avatar
feuerkralle2011
You need to reason why we should increase it to 200km. Only because you've lost witnesses isn't a good argument 😉 (edited)
Yes i try to find correct words 🙂
Avatar
Title of the hip maybe needs improvement too. Maybe „PoC distance limit increase to 200km“
Avatar
İ wrote in github the reason
Avatar
Avatar
Bcagatay53
İ wrote in github the reason
Was that in response to my comment? I was referring to clarity of the title, not the reason. (edited)
Avatar
Doomsday13🇺🇸 04/17/2022 7:45 AM
07:45
Okay I get it. We don't want this.
07:46
But you're incentivizing us to do this.
👎 1
07:46
07:46
Why don't we incentivize to do what we want it to do which is this?
Avatar
Doomsday13🇺🇸 04/17/2022 8:14 AM
For sensors I believe it's 50 km. They up it to a 100km. I'm pretty sure sensors can only reach in between 50 and 100. Km
Avatar
your run of the mill sensor will TX at approx 0.17w
08:24
which will reach about 50km across a flat area unobstructed (edited)
08:26
but regardless of this hip if you have a custom sensor with max wattage and great antenna you can still use the network at over 100km
Avatar
Avatar
backtran
Can’t find where it says range?
the range on that device depends on what aerial(is detachable) you use to your receivable floor around -130db and the receivers antenna of course. (edited)
08:55
the point being made that their generalization of the distance 30-50 is incorrect, comparing cheaper sensors without external aerials vs quality sensors with external aerial is not a legitimate comparison. (edited)
Avatar
There's a new HIP sort of being proposed as a github issue: https://github.com/helium/HIP/issues/389 For folks that care about raising the limit, that HIP could use help being a more formal proposal with more evidence and arguments laid out. Right now, a few comments have good info, but the whole thing really needs to follow the HIP process if it stands of chance of making it to a vote: https://github.com/helium/HIP/blob/main/0007-managing-hip-process.md#submitting-a-hip (edited)
Avatar
All I see is "MY hotspot. MY rewards." as an argument, which is not valid reason. Didn't see any of that in HIP-58.
☝️ 3
Avatar
One important consideration and a motivator for this HIP in the first place is that the FSPL calculation, that’s used to approximately determine whether a signal has valid physical characteristics, becomes very unreliable as distance increases. Even though the logical argument might be that 200km makes sense, the FSPL calc is basically useless at that distance and almost any signal is deemed valid. So how would you address that?
👍 4
Avatar
Avatar
capcom
One important consideration and a motivator for this HIP in the first place is that the FSPL calculation, that’s used to approximately determine whether a signal has valid physical characteristics, becomes very unreliable as distance increases. Even though the logical argument might be that 200km makes sense, the FSPL calc is basically useless at that distance and almost any signal is deemed valid. So how would you address that?
feuerkralle2011 04/17/2022 10:13 AM
How much load would there be if we send our coordinates with the witness receipt so the miner can calculation the distance based on these figures? With the move to light hotspot firmware we might have enough power to run those calculations (edited)
Avatar
It might be worth looking at, but it would only give you relative position (pretty inaccurately) not absolute position as almost no hotspots have gps on board
Avatar
Avatar
capcom
It might be worth looking at, but it would only give you relative position (pretty inaccurately) not absolute position as almost no hotspots have gps on board
feuerkralle2011 04/17/2022 10:15 AM
We would take the asserted values... these values already exist and it's fine to be a little of there if we allow for some km tolerance I would say (edited)
Avatar
Avatar
capcom
It might be worth looking at, but it would only give you relative position (pretty inaccurately) not absolute position as almost no hotspots have gps on board
th3j0ker🛰♾ 04/17/2022 10:36 AM
Having gps on miner would stop the gaming? If yes it's something that novalab should require...
👎 1
Avatar
Just add a tiny cheap gps and we are ready to go!
👎 1
Avatar
Avatar
th3j0ker🛰♾
Having gps on miner would stop the gaming? If yes it's something that novalab should require...
GPS is easy to modify, it’s not very reliable. Also it’s not up to us to require things, it’s defined in HIP19
👍 2
Avatar
Avatar
Stefz
Just add a tiny cheap gps and we are ready to go!
DigitalHuevos🥚 04/17/2022 10:40 AM
Super easy to spoof GPS location.. (edited)
☝️ 4
💯 1
Avatar
Doomsday13🇺🇸 04/17/2022 10:55 AM
Yes, GPS super easy to spoof. However, human intervention in seeing configurations that are only used for gaming and have no inherent positivity to the network at all. Should be looked at by a human. If there's accountability on the insertion side where MOC has some kind of insight or regulation of new manufacturers? I think that would be very helpful in eliminating gaming.
Avatar
I believe what was not taken into account with this hip58 is the frequency of the farther witnessing. To explain it better a normal and legit miner could do witnessing farther than 100km but randomly let s say every 2-3 hours..gamers do that constantly even every 10 minutes. A limit based on consistency of this kind of farther witnessing could do the work
11:02
Not a new hip just a slight improvement of it
Avatar
Avatar
Stefz
I believe what was not taken into account with this hip58 is the frequency of the farther witnessing. To explain it better a normal and legit miner could do witnessing farther than 100km but randomly let s say every 2-3 hours..gamers do that constantly even every 10 minutes. A limit based on consistency of this kind of farther witnessing could do the work
if "legit" miners only pick up 100km+ packets every few hours, wouldn't this be an argument that the coverage is not reliable?
👆 2
Avatar
Doomsday13🇺🇸 04/17/2022 11:03 AM
Do Nova labs in helium have anybody specialized in AI that anybody is aware?
Avatar
@ediewald I manage several of them...and they are all legit and legal I can tell...that s why I spoke about the frequency of those farther witnessing
Avatar
Avatar
Doomsday13🇺🇸
Do Nova labs in helium have anybody specialized in AI that anybody is aware?
I'm not on the nova team but I'd be curious to hear your AI idea
Avatar
@DigitalHuevos🥚 also very true but we all know that gamers are not newbies...
Avatar
Doomsday13🇺🇸 04/17/2022 11:06 AM
Okay, I'm not too sure what they are but I've used them. I'll have to find them again. There are several programs that are actually coding better than I do in AI. If the parameters are set correctly, AI can find it eliminate it immediately. They're just has to be a solid algorithm as to who, what, where, when and how.
Avatar
Avatar
feuerkralle2011
How much load would there be if we send our coordinates with the witness receipt so the miner can calculation the distance based on these figures? With the move to light hotspot firmware we might have enough power to run those calculations (edited)
How do you mean this? The location is already known based on the asserted location.
Avatar
Avatar
Stefz
@ediewald I manage several of them...and they are all legit and legal I can tell...that s why I spoke about the frequency of those farther witnessing
sorry, what I meant is, I think one of the core arguments of the HIP is not that occasional 100km+ lora transmissions exist, but that coverage is pretty unreliable at these ranges. sure, you may pick up 5, 10, 25% of long-distance packets with a fantastic setup, but that doesn't provide much utility to device users
Avatar
Avatar
groot
How do you mean this? The location is already known based on the asserted location.
feuerkralle2011 04/17/2022 11:16 AM
If the recipient of the witness knows these values already thats ok and we could use them to calculate the distance. But I thought that it might be necessary to send the coordinates via the witness receipt to avoid database requests / blockchain searches for the miner specifics
Avatar
Avatar
feuerkralle2011
If the recipient of the witness knows these values already thats ok and we could use them to calculate the distance. But I thought that it might be necessary to send the coordinates via the witness receipt to avoid database requests / blockchain searches for the miner specifics
Ah I see, the ledger already contains that information so sending it with isn’t useful I think.
Avatar
Avatar
groot
Ah I see, the ledger already contains that information so sending it with isn’t useful I think.
feuerkralle2011 04/17/2022 11:18 AM
That would be great and could be used to verify the distances then... far better then using rf based calculations
Avatar
Avatar
Doomsday13🇺🇸
Okay, I'm not too sure what they are but I've used them. I'll have to find them again. There are several programs that are actually coding better than I do in AI. If the parameters are set correctly, AI can find it eliminate it immediately. They're just has to be a solid algorithm as to who, what, where, when and how.
ML definitely has a place in the anti-gaming problem, but you have to narrow down the scope. for instance, I've used it to help flag "dubious" poc receipts, given the reported signal characteristics AND the topography between the radios. helps pick up cases where the hotspot is fabricating witness activity
Avatar
Avatar
feuerkralle2011
That would be great and could be used to verify the distances then... far better then using rf based calculations
That is used for distances?
11:20
Distance calculations are based on the res 12 hexagon that the hotspot is asserted at.
Avatar
Avatar
groot
That is used for distances?
feuerkralle2011 04/17/2022 11:21 AM
https://discord.com/channels/404106811252408320/960583430612070420/965293912140972092 capcom talked about these rf calculations above thats why I came up with using coordinates instead
Avatar
Avatar
feuerkralle2011
https://discord.com/channels/404106811252408320/960583430612070420/965293912140972092 capcom talked about these rf calculations above thats why I came up with using coordinates instead
I think something was lost there. The problem with FSPL isn't that we don't know the distance, it is that the asymptotic behaviour of FSPL makes it unsuitable for use at far distances. (edited)
👍 2
Avatar
I believe that was in response to the idea using FSPL to determine the "max theoretical distance" given your regional tx power & freq
Avatar
There is almost no difference in FSPL for 100km and 200km while the difference in FSPL between 10km and 20km is much larger. (edited)
11:25
@feuerkralle2011 See diagram for FSPL calculations at distances using different antennas. 😉 (edited)
Avatar
Avatar
groot
@feuerkralle2011 See diagram for FSPL calculations at distances using different antennas. 😉 (edited)
feuerkralle2011 04/17/2022 11:28 AM
Isn't FSPL also ignoring weather conditions?
👍 1
Avatar
FSPL is ignoring everything. FSPL is Free-Space Path Loss, e.g. what it would do in a vacuum hindered by nothing.
Avatar
feuerkralle2011 04/17/2022 11:29 AM
That's what I thought and why I said we probably should use the coordinates instead... capcom sounded like FSPL is still in use ^^
Avatar
The original activation of FSPL with PoCv11 set an extra decay of 0.7 to FSPL, that was removed and is now at 1.0 so pure FSPL. If you're too close, you are really, really too close. (edited)
Avatar
Avatar
feuerkralle2011
That's what I thought and why I said we probably should use the coordinates instead... capcom sounded like FSPL is still in use ^^
But I misunderstand, what does distance have to do with it? We have some distance X, at this distance the FSPL should be -120dBm yet you receive it at -110dBm. You are performing better than theoretically possible thus it is invalid. This is how it currently works. FSPL doesn't replace distance, you need distance for it to make sense. Just distance is also useless as it says nothing about the radio signal.
Avatar
Avatar
groot
But I misunderstand, what does distance have to do with it? We have some distance X, at this distance the FSPL should be -120dBm yet you receive it at -110dBm. You are performing better than theoretically possible thus it is invalid. This is how it currently works. FSPL doesn't replace distance, you need distance for it to make sense. Just distance is also useless as it says nothing about the radio signal.
feuerkralle2011 04/17/2022 11:34 AM
I reread his comment and probably misunderstood the connection here. You are right. We would need both to work properly 🙂
Avatar
Original message was deleted or could not be loaded.
Simple, you miss that you only look at 3 decimals instead of the full precision hnt.
11:36
Not sure, probably was faster than you. Set it up to get all packets and not just fastest to see if you also get packets. Also do this somewhere else please, this is not the channel.
Avatar
Doomsday13🇺🇸 04/17/2022 11:37 AM
Inherently I believe we have a insertion problem. I always look at everything like I'm going to steal it. Sounds bad but it's all security. I knew we had a problem when I first inserted my first hotspot. I was able to place it anywhere. No ifs, ands or butts. I could put it wherever I want. That's a hole. A big hole. My first thought was why not get a hundred miners and have them ping all themselves. If the goal is to have decentralized whole world coverage. We have to solve that problem.
Avatar
Original message was deleted or could not be loaded.
Console only buys packets from a few hotspots by default. If your hotspot was not on the list, it means that the other hotspots were faster to deliver the data packet. You can change a setting in console so it buys packets from all hotspots that received the packet, that way you can check if your hotspot received the packet or not.
Avatar
Original message was deleted or could not be loaded.
is it normal to have lorawan sensors around you?
😆 1
Avatar
So is the limit 100km? I’ve spent a fair amount of time, effort and money on my set up which is on the coast in the UK. It actually reaches the Netherlands and Belgium on several occasions as well as hitting distant coastal parts of the UK due to the shape of the coastline. This happened again a few hours ago and it’s showing 10 of these witnesses as invalid.
Avatar
Avatar
BNZi24
So is the limit 100km? I’ve spent a fair amount of time, effort and money on my set up which is on the coast in the UK. It actually reaches the Netherlands and Belgium on several occasions as well as hitting distant coastal parts of the UK due to the shape of the coastline. This happened again a few hours ago and it’s showing 10 of these witnesses as invalid.
Yes. HIP-58 was passed and the chain variables controlling this were activated. (edited)
Avatar
Acidic Wool Dragonfly. Was a lone wolf so I paid for a decent installation to improve the range. 8dbi, LMR400, 3 meter pole above my roof height. I now get lower rewards for it. Losing interest in this project now.
Avatar
Avatar
BNZi24
Acidic Wool Dragonfly. Was a lone wolf so I paid for a decent installation to improve the range. 8dbi, LMR400, 3 meter pole above my roof height. I now get lower rewards for it. Losing interest in this project now.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/17/2022 4:48 PM
Avatar
13 witness out of the last 90 days . ... wow massive loss
😄 1
Avatar
Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 04/17/2022 6:06 PM
The more I see the chart the more I think it should be lowered to 60-75km range and probably the lower in that range the better. (edited)
👍 1
Avatar
nooooooooo, 200, 300, 400, 500km
😆 1
Avatar
The best is 10 meters, let's communicate with smoke..
Avatar
Avatar
BiggieJohn
13 witness out of the last 90 days . ... wow massive loss
90 days ago this was sitting on a ground floor windowsill of a bungalow. Only around 1 month ago did I relocate it and have it fully installed properly. It’s has gone from maxing out witnesses occasionally to having 10 invalids, so yeah, it is a big difference isn’t it? Cheers for being condescending though, it really helps. 👍🏻
Avatar
actually, no, 4 is the ideal number, more, reduces the per witness reward
💯 2
Avatar
Avatar
BNZi24
90 days ago this was sitting on a ground floor windowsill of a bungalow. Only around 1 month ago did I relocate it and have it fully installed properly. It’s has gone from maxing out witnesses occasionally to having 10 invalids, so yeah, it is a big difference isn’t it? Cheers for being condescending though, it really helps. 👍🏻
I hate to disappoint, but if your interest in the project is linked to losing out on rewards with every passing day... (edited)
18:35
🥲 2
Avatar
Avatar
Fizzy
Click to see attachment 🖼️
Hopefully data tranfers fill that void gradually.
Avatar
Avatar
Fizzy
I hate to disappoint, but if your interest in the project is linked to losing out on rewards with every passing day... (edited)
I’ve got several of these set up since early last year so I’m well aware of the reducing rewards. That’s not the problem at all. I’m more annoyed that I wasted money on increasing the range for no reason. What’s the point in increasing the range if it’s invalid? How does that help to expand the network? I appreciate this was done to try and stop people cheating the system, but at the same time it causes other issues for units which aren’t in big cities and have good set ups. I made effort to locate a unit in a quiet area as a lone wolf, (others have popped up since) I spent money on the install and it actually worked really well until this HIP passed.
Avatar
Avatar
BNZi24
I’ve got several of these set up since early last year so I’m well aware of the reducing rewards. That’s not the problem at all. I’m more annoyed that I wasted money on increasing the range for no reason. What’s the point in increasing the range if it’s invalid? How does that help to expand the network? I appreciate this was done to try and stop people cheating the system, but at the same time it causes other issues for units which aren’t in big cities and have good set ups. I made effort to locate a unit in a quiet area as a lone wolf, (others have popped up since) I spent money on the install and it actually worked really well until this HIP passed.
Acidic Wool Dragonfly; when was the last invalid?
19:32
Cuz I don't see any going back 1 month (edited)
Avatar
Avatar
BNZi24
90 days ago this was sitting on a ground floor windowsill of a bungalow. Only around 1 month ago did I relocate it and have it fully installed properly. It’s has gone from maxing out witnesses occasionally to having 10 invalids, so yeah, it is a big difference isn’t it? Cheers for being condescending though, it really helps. 👍🏻
I only see invalids for others witnessing you from over the sea. And because you have been in since early last year, you know that sending a beacon doesn't reward much regardless of invalid. If you want to compare: https://explorer.helium.com/txns/SBCjVKGsmadJ8-v_2UE4r61lbDkICXPISoz0UCHs_ls Your HNT reward for 14 other witnessing your beacon. Reaching over the sea, over 100km. = 0.03038 HNT https://explorer.helium.com/txns/D4jLs_UKzgovMk5njP7S1DoIYtEQG_os-UaXreDgC4s Your beacon that happened 24 hours ago, 7 witnesses, none over 100km. = +0.05523 HNT 🤔 Not share where your seeing a "Big difference"; where's your data? I hardly see anything supporting "worked really well until this HIP passed"; your more likely effected by the recent overall network slowing down until we get light hotspots. (edited)
Avatar
Avatar
Fizzy
Acidic Wool Dragonfly; when was the last invalid?
If you guys don't stop these beat downs, no one is going to tell us their hotspot names any more!
Avatar
@BiggieJohn why are you smiling on this person? That s not nice at all! People come here to raise concerns, debate and express their ideas on favour or against the hip58 which passed. I believe respect should always due! (edited)
Avatar
Hip58 victim. Cyprus.
Avatar
Avatar
Stefz
@BiggieJohn why are you smiling on this person? That s not nice at all! People come here to raise concerns, debate and express their ideas on favour or against the hip58 which passed. I believe respect should always due! (edited)
feuerkralle2011 04/18/2022 12:50 AM
If it would just be real concern. Seeing the data posted above doesn't back his claims to being really affected at all🤣
Avatar
Invalid witnessing party!
00:56
Congratulations # hip58. Thanks for punishing good coverage setups. 👏 at next hip please remove PoC completely and leave only data.
Avatar
Avatar
mixtri
Congratulations # hip58. Thanks for punishing good coverage setups. 👏 at next hip please remove PoC completely and leave only data.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/18/2022 12:58 AM
That is not good coverage.
Avatar
Avatar
Fizzy
I hate to disappoint, but if your interest in the project is linked to losing out on rewards with every passing day... (edited)
Is this sustainable? 🙂 you don’t disappoint anyone. I’m just wondering where this project goes. From all the activated hotspots if people don’t earn much they will simply trash or sell their equipment. If we reach this curve point then network should give alternatives to keep it up and running. Is there any plan for this?
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
That is not good coverage.
Ships with containers cross the Mediterranean. How is this coverage not useful….
Avatar
Avatar
mixtri
Ships with containers cross the Mediterranean. How is this coverage not useful….
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/18/2022 1:02 AM
How far do you think those sensors can transmit?
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
How far do you think those sensors can transmit?
It depends on the sensor I guess? The guy in the example has 8dBi receiving antenna. We are talking about sea so line of sight... I guess that's the best transmission scenario... Again you direct the discussion where you want. I don't play this game with you. The guy has a great setup that offers the maximum coverage at sea level between Cyprus and Lebanon. And this hideous hip is punishing him. If I were him I would switch off my setup and send it to hell. That I would do, not him :)
Avatar
Avatar
mixtri
It depends on the sensor I guess? The guy in the example has 8dBi receiving antenna. We are talking about sea so line of sight... I guess that's the best transmission scenario... Again you direct the discussion where you want. I don't play this game with you. The guy has a great setup that offers the maximum coverage at sea level between Cyprus and Lebanon. And this hideous hip is punishing him. If I were him I would switch off my setup and send it to hell. That I would do, not him :)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/18/2022 1:10 AM
The myth of "the great setup". This HIP didn't affect data, only POC.
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
The myth of "the great setup". This HIP didn't affect data, only POC.
Nice! He is punished in PoC level and he will transfer data if any. Double standard. Anyhow, the hip58 is amazing. It solved all the issues that the network had. No gamers, no bad setups, perfect coverage and all. I was looking forward to this hip since the beginning of the project. Genius idea and implementation. I'm really looking forward to the next hip 🙂
facepalm 2
Avatar
Avatar
mixtri
Nice! He is punished in PoC level and he will transfer data if any. Double standard. Anyhow, the hip58 is amazing. It solved all the issues that the network had. No gamers, no bad setups, perfect coverage and all. I was looking forward to this hip since the beginning of the project. Genius idea and implementation. I'm really looking forward to the next hip 🙂
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/18/2022 1:18 AM
Please learn how data transfer works.
Avatar
@feuerkralle2011 I agree with you but we should all behave respectful otherwise this becomes like the jungle...
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Please learn how data transfer works.
Thanks for the advice.
Avatar
@mixtri the only way to fight this hip is to create a new hip. If you wish to know more DM me
Avatar
Avatar
Stefz
@mixtri the only way to fight this hip is to create a new hip. If you wish to know more DM me
Deleted User 04/18/2022 1:27 AM
Sounds futile given the vote’s results (edited)
👆 1
Avatar
@Deleted User futile?? So if people disagree and express some concerns and try to do something to change or improve is futile for you? Ok got it. Thanks to explain your point of view. (edited)
01:43
In any case regardless which action will be taken it s to be noted down that several people are coming in this channel to complain about this hip58 and should lead to some deeper analysis or thought. At least I would think this is the way to go
01:45
Instead of this I see a general behave towards people raising concerns or critics which is not really constructive...and also smiling at some people s statement (wrong or right) is the peak of disrespect which should not exist in any community. My 2 cents
Avatar
Avatar
Stefz
Instead of this I see a general behave towards people raising concerns or critics which is not really constructive...and also smiling at some people s statement (wrong or right) is the peak of disrespect which should not exist in any community. My 2 cents
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/18/2022 1:45 AM
smiling?
Avatar
@ElonTusk | 5Gchipped yes some guy last night was smiling at some statement of some person...you can see it above that was sad...
01:46
But yes hip58 passed and we move on. Period
Avatar
Avatar
Stefz
@ElonTusk | 5Gchipped yes some guy last night was smiling at some statement of some person...you can see it above that was sad...
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/18/2022 1:46 AM
Must be a translation error. Nothing wrong with smiling. 🙂
Avatar
@ElonTusk | 5Gchipped you can check..but just to point out that s not very respectful but yeah I m nobody s lawyer, guys👍
Avatar
Avatar
Stefz
@ElonTusk | 5Gchipped you can check..but just to point out that s not very respectful but yeah I m nobody s lawyer, guys👍
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/18/2022 1:47 AM
I don't know what message you mean
Avatar
It was last night now I m not searching it again..but still.. community should behave as such
01:49
I was considering if antenna seller would approve this hip58 with the 8-10db antennas? They could get a hit in sales too
01:50
And this could lead to some decrease in price which should not go bad at all
Avatar
Avatar
Stefz
I was considering if antenna seller would approve this hip58 with the 8-10db antennas? They could get a hit in sales too
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/18/2022 1:50 AM
Dbi does not equal distance
Avatar
@ElonTusk | 5Gchipped in this I partially disagree
01:51
Usually diagrams of irradiation of such antennas are thinner and reach farther..
👎 1
Avatar
Avatar
Stefz
@ElonTusk | 5Gchipped in this I partially disagree
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/18/2022 1:51 AM
dbi is about shape and field density, not distance. Line of sight is distance.
Avatar
Shape means diagrams thinner..
01:52
I m not sure but maybe we say the same...
01:52
Sorry for my bad wording
Avatar
Avatar
Stefz
Shape means diagrams thinner..
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/18/2022 1:53 AM
Thinner does not mean it reaches farther
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
dbi is about shape and field density, not distance. Line of sight is distance.
You can’t disagree with the fact that if the signal is in the cone of a high dBi antenna it will be amplified more than with a low dBi antenna right? Sure high dBi with a concrete wall in front isn’t going to much, that’s also true.
Avatar
@ElonTusk | 5Gchipped sorry but with a 3db I never reached 150km with a 8 or 10 db yes (edited)
Avatar
Avatar
groot
You can’t disagree with the fact that if the signal is in the cone of a high dBi antenna it will be amplified more than with a low dBi antenna right? Sure high dBi with a concrete wall in front isn’t going to much, that’s also true.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/18/2022 1:53 AM
Inverse square law still applies 🙂
Avatar
The diagram of irradiation is thinner spreads narrower
Avatar
Avatar
Stefz
@ElonTusk | 5Gchipped sorry but with a 3db I never reached 150km with a 8 or 10 db yes (edited)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/18/2022 1:54 AM
A 3dbi hit 200km. 🤷‍♂️
Avatar
@ElonTusk | 5Gchipped sorry but where and when?
01:54
Never seen it
01:54
I could reach that distances in same location only with 8db or. More....
Avatar
Avatar
Stefz
@ElonTusk | 5Gchipped sorry but where and when?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/18/2022 1:54 AM
Gristleking
Avatar
@ElonTusk | 5Gchipped I have a perfect test field..my pole...
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/18/2022 1:55 AM
HNTennta, 3dbi
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Inverse square law still applies 🙂
If we put a high dBi antenna in the FSPL formula you’ll see the difference.
Avatar
3 dB max distance 120km, 8db reached 180km same place
👎 1
01:55
This are real datas not calculations
Avatar
Avatar
Stefz
This are real datas not calculations
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/18/2022 1:56 AM
So is mine.
Avatar
Well ok I m fine with that
Avatar
BoroMiner870 04/18/2022 1:56 AM
Alot of folks are looking at this from an earnings point of view. I would like to challenge folks that we are going to stifle Innovation in this space by limiting one of the great benefits of lorawan, which is long distance coverage. Take for example coverage across bodies of water that happen to be 100 to 150, even 200 km. It's a perfect application for coverage due to line of sight being so great. https://imgur.com/a/vlqYq6r If we disincentivize this kind of coverage, the folks working on solutions to use this network, would lose the opportunity to provide solutions for recreational boaters, shippers, fishing industry, remote weather monitoring, emergency beaconing.....ect
Avatar
@BoroMiner870 unfortunately this statement is true
Avatar
Avatar
BoroMiner870
Alot of folks are looking at this from an earnings point of view. I would like to challenge folks that we are going to stifle Innovation in this space by limiting one of the great benefits of lorawan, which is long distance coverage. Take for example coverage across bodies of water that happen to be 100 to 150, even 200 km. It's a perfect application for coverage due to line of sight being so great. https://imgur.com/a/vlqYq6r If we disincentivize this kind of coverage, the folks working on solutions to use this network, would lose the opportunity to provide solutions for recreational boaters, shippers, fishing industry, remote weather monitoring, emergency beaconing.....ect
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/18/2022 1:57 AM
A 100km radius area is huge. No one is being "Stifled"
Avatar
What is commonly being said here is that hip58 could slow down some deployments. I was mentioning this 1 week ago...now after hip58 passed more and more people are saying this. Guys this deserves some deeper analysis (edited)
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
A 100km radius area is huge. No one is being "Stifled"
BoroMiner870 04/18/2022 1:59 AM
So if the body of water Just happens to be over 100kms we just don't offer coverage? Even though the tech works perfectly fine? (edited)
Avatar
Avatar
BoroMiner870
So if the body of water Just happens to be over 100kms we just don't offer coverage? Even though the tech works perfectly fine? (edited)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/18/2022 2:00 AM
Install hotspot on the other side.
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Install hotspot on the other side.
BoroMiner870 04/18/2022 2:00 AM
But it's over 100kms
facepalm 1
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/18/2022 2:00 AM
You're not going to get the data from sensors over there.
Avatar
@ElonTusk | 5Gchipped but you do poc of the other miner on the other side, no?
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
You're not going to get the data from sensors over there.
BoroMiner870 04/18/2022 2:01 AM
That's false. There are sensors that work perfectly fine. They would be built specifically for these applications
Avatar
Avatar
BoroMiner870
But it's over 100kms
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/18/2022 2:01 AM
If the body of water is 100km wide, each hotspot on each side only has to reach 50km...
Avatar
Guys I live in Italy. There are ships.using lorawan devices which can reach farther than 100km due to water reflections.....
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
If the body of water is 100km wide, each hotspot on each side only has to reach 50km...
BoroMiner870 04/18/2022 2:02 AM
I don't think that's how it works
Avatar
Avatar
BoroMiner870
That's false. There are sensors that work perfectly fine. They would be built specifically for these applications
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/18/2022 2:02 AM
This hip does not limit data distance...
Avatar
Avatar
BoroMiner870
I don't think that's how it works
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/18/2022 2:02 AM
Dude... it's simple. Draw a 100km radius circle...
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
This hip does not limit data distance...
BoroMiner870 04/18/2022 2:03 AM
It disinsentivizes providing this coverage
facepalm 1
Avatar
I m mentioning specifically devices mounted on ships...
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Dude... it's simple. Draw a 100km radius circle...
BoroMiner870 04/18/2022 2:03 AM
Did you even look at the pictures in my post? (edited)
facepalm 1
Avatar
So the statement that sensors do not reach.farther than 100km is not correct
02:04
Let s just hear what we are saying....👍
Avatar
Avatar
BoroMiner870
Did you even look at the pictures in my post? (edited)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/18/2022 2:04 AM
Make sense now?
02:06
(frankly i made the circles too small, but you get the idea)
Avatar
@ElonTusk | 5Gchipped I think he or she tries to say that with one sensor you can cover that 108km...now you need 2...
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Make sense now?
BoroMiner870 04/18/2022 2:06 AM
No, it's still greater than 100kms hotspot to hotspot. That's how it's measured. You would need one in the middle of the water
Avatar
Avatar
BoroMiner870
No, it's still greater than 100kms hotspot to hotspot. That's how it's measured. You would need one in the middle of the water
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/18/2022 2:06 AM
No... we're talking about sensor coverage
Avatar
@ElonTusk | 5Gchipped please check my messages sent before...I mentioned some sensors on the boat due to water reflection can reach over 50km easily...
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
No... we're talking about sensor coverage
BoroMiner870 04/18/2022 2:07 AM
We don't get rewarded for that until the solutions come and ppl start using them. Right now we are rewarded for hotspot to hotspot coverage (edited)
Avatar
@BoroMiner870 POC...
Avatar
Avatar
BoroMiner870
We don't get rewarded for that until the solutions come and ppl start using them. Right now we are rewarded for hotspot to hotspot coverage (edited)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/18/2022 2:08 AM
You are rewarded for building to do useful coverage of sensors. Why would the network reward you for coverage that isn't useful?
Avatar
Avatar
BoroMiner870
We don't get rewarded for that until the solutions come and ppl start using them. Right now we are rewarded for hotspot to hotspot coverage (edited)
BoroMiner870 04/18/2022 2:09 AM
If the coverage doesn't exist, the data rewards won't come, because no one will build on a network without coverage
Avatar
Avatar
BoroMiner870
If the coverage doesn't exist, the data rewards won't come, because no one will build on a network without coverage
BoroMiner870 04/18/2022 2:10 AM
It's the entire reason POC even exists
Avatar
@BoroMiner870 exactly i explained it several times especially for some bare or remote areas.where we deployed sensors and miners but seems people.dont wanna get this simple concept and stick only with this 50km sensors arguments
Avatar
Avatar
BoroMiner870
It's the entire reason POC even exists
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/18/2022 2:10 AM
POC is Proof of Coverage of sensors
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
POC is Proof of Coverage of sensors
BoroMiner870 04/18/2022 2:10 AM
False,
Avatar
@ElonTusk | 5Gchipped where do you get that "of sensors"?
02:11
It s proof of coverage that a miner is in that locations
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
POC is Proof of Coverage of sensors
feuerkralle2011 04/18/2022 2:11 AM
I would use the word "for" instead of "of". Makes more sense for the idea that we try to narrow down that the hotspot is in the correct position for sensors to reach 🙂
Avatar
Avatar
Stefz
@ElonTusk | 5Gchipped where do you get that "of sensors"?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/18/2022 2:12 AM
Avatar
But that s a.message from yesterday???
facepalm 1
Avatar
BoroMiner870 04/18/2022 2:13 AM
But that's not the system we have today
Avatar
Or do I see wrong?
Avatar
BoroMiner870 04/18/2022 2:13 AM
Make that part of the HIP
Avatar
Because that was not in before yesterday as far as I know.....so again...I m speechless
Avatar
Avatar
Stefz
But that s a.message from yesterday???
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/18/2022 2:14 AM
It's always been the point of the network. Read the white paper...
Avatar
Until now POC meant proof of coverage to provide a proof that a miner is in the position asserted. Now from yesterday the CEO is writing that it s proof of coverage for sensors and all of the sudden we change that? Seriously??? Is that normal??? I m speechless
02:15
@ElonTusk | 5Gchipped check my last message thank you
Avatar
Avatar
Stefz
Until now POC meant proof of coverage to provide a proof that a miner is in the position asserted. Now from yesterday the CEO is writing that it s proof of coverage for sensors and all of the sudden we change that? Seriously??? Is that normal??? I m speechless
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/18/2022 2:15 AM
Wrong
02:15
sort of
02:16
You are proving the coverage area
Avatar
@ElonTusk | 5Gchipped so listen you are the.truth here...about 3db antenna, about poc, and probably about many more things. It s pointless to discuss than. I m done
Avatar
Avatar
Stefz
@ElonTusk | 5Gchipped so listen you are the.truth here...about 3db antenna, about poc, and probably about many more things. It s pointless to discuss than. I m done
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/18/2022 2:17 AM
Sorry, translation is weird, so I'm not sure what you mean 🙂
Avatar
BoroMiner870 04/18/2022 2:24 AM
Bottom line for me is that the reward structure to built out the coverage needs to be based on the limitations of the technology which is greater than 100kms In many situations. Limiting this will limit coverage in these edge cases where had it not been for the limitation, someone would have provided coverage and now they wont. The whole point of this phase of the project is to build a network with the best coverage possible so that the next phase, the one where the actual utility of the network will be based on will have reliable coverage to support it. (edited)
Avatar
Avatar
BoroMiner870
Bottom line for me is that the reward structure to built out the coverage needs to be based on the limitations of the technology which is greater than 100kms In many situations. Limiting this will limit coverage in these edge cases where had it not been for the limitation, someone would have provided coverage and now they wont. The whole point of this phase of the project is to build a network with the best coverage possible so that the next phase, the one where the actual utility of the network will be based on will have reliable coverage to support it. (edited)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/18/2022 2:26 AM
The network does not care about edge cases.
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
The network does not care about edge cases.
BoroMiner870 04/18/2022 2:26 AM
I guess I'm not part of the network then. Bye
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/18/2022 2:26 AM
Where there is a gap in coverage, people will be incentivized to install hotspots.
Avatar
@ElonTusk | 5Gchipped capcom is clearly in favour of raising the limit, "this is why PoC should be changed to be device/sensor based. a network of hotspots pinging each other is useless if sensors don't have the same coverage area. i've never understood this argument or why people keep making it" its a fact there are many sensors capable of over 100km so he is clearly for the limit being raised above 100km.
02:28
as he describes it should be device/sensor based and they go over 100km from device to sensor .
Avatar
Avatar
MoreDPS
@ElonTusk | 5Gchipped capcom is clearly in favour of raising the limit, "this is why PoC should be changed to be device/sensor based. a network of hotspots pinging each other is useless if sensors don't have the same coverage area. i've never understood this argument or why people keep making it" its a fact there are many sensors capable of over 100km so he is clearly for the limit being raised above 100km.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/18/2022 2:28 AM
Do not put words in his mouth. He never said that.
Avatar
thats a cpoypasta
02:29
its his own words
02:29
otherwise he wouldnt be in favor of the change being device/sensor based and just arbitrary number based
Avatar
Avatar
MoreDPS
otherwise he wouldnt be in favor of the change being device/sensor based and just arbitrary number based
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/18/2022 2:31 AM
You've failed to read the context of what he was responding to and are trying to twist his words.
Avatar
no your assertation only holds true if you go on the false premise of 30-50km (edited)
facepalm 1
Avatar
Avatar
MoreDPS
no your assertation only holds true if you go on the false premise of 30-50km (edited)
You posted a sensor that supposedly can reach further but I couldn't find any distance statement on your link.
Avatar
Avatar
MoreDPS
no your assertation only holds true if you go on the false premise of 30-50km (edited)
BoroMiner870 04/18/2022 2:33 AM
If a hotspot can see 150km or 200km. Then a sensor with the same radio and antenna will too
facepalm 2
👎 1
Avatar
Avatar
groot
You posted a sensor that supposedly can reach further but I couldn't find any distance statement on your link.
BoroMiner870 04/18/2022 2:33 AM
If a hotspot can see 150km or 200km. Then a sensor with the same radio and antenna will too
👎 2
facepalm 1
Avatar
@groot the point is it has external aerial attachment , its going to go that distance with a adequate setup (edited)
Avatar
Avatar
MoreDPS
@groot the point is it has external aerial attachment , its going to go that distance with a adequate setup (edited)
If I put some racing stripes on my car it doesn't turn into a Ferrari. If you are going to argue the point of distance based on a sensor you'd better pick a sensor where you have data to back up that it actually goes the distance.
Avatar
Avatar
BoroMiner870
If a hotspot can see 150km or 200km. Then a sensor with the same radio and antenna will too
Given the same infinite power source and big fat antenna as a hotspot, with the same radio, true. Fact is sensors have neither of those things.
👆 1
Avatar
Avatar
groot
If I put some racing stripes on my car it doesn't turn into a Ferrari. If you are going to argue the point of distance based on a sensor you'd better pick a sensor where you have data to back up that it actually goes the distance.
BoroMiner870 04/18/2022 2:36 AM
What Is a sensor?
Avatar
Avatar
groot
Given the same infinite power source and big fat antenna as a hotspot, with the same radio, true. Fact is sensors have neither of those things.
BoroMiner870 04/18/2022 2:36 AM
What is a sensor?
🤨 1
Avatar
@groot you have failed to refute the fact that it will transmit over 100km and this HIP is limiting sensors, i can link other models , but a simple google suffices https://www.google.com/search?q=lora+sensor+with+external+aerial&
Avatar
Avatar
BoroMiner870
What is a sensor?
BoroMiner870 04/18/2022 2:38 AM
The reality is a sensor can be anything including something with access to more power and powerfull antenna (edited)
02:39
It's up to the folks developing a product to determine what the sensor will be (edited)
Avatar
Avatar
MoreDPS
@groot you have failed to refute the fact that it will transmit over 100km and this HIP is limiting sensors, i can link other models , but a simple google suffices https://www.google.com/search?q=lora+sensor+with+external+aerial&
I'm going to state that sensor reaches 33.781 centimeters, with the same level of proof as you have.
😄 1
Avatar
Avatar
groot
I'm going to state that sensor reaches 33.781 centimeters, with the same level of proof as you have.
do the math on its TX power , frequency loss on FSPL yourself , im sure your capable.
Avatar
@BoroMiner870 exactly
Avatar
Avatar
MoreDPS
do the math on its TX power , frequency loss on FSPL yourself , im sure your capable.
BoroMiner870 04/18/2022 2:41 AM
I agree
Avatar
Avatar
MoreDPS
do the math on its TX power , frequency loss on FSPL yourself , im sure your capable.
BoroMiner870 04/18/2022 2:41 AM
This only supports my point
Avatar
Avatar
MoreDPS
do the math on its TX power , frequency loss on FSPL yourself , im sure your capable.
Maybe, also not how it works, you claim something, you should back it up.
💯 1
Avatar
Guys the 100km is based on the assumption that sensors reach maximum of 50km. Than they doubled up this number. The latter operation is kind of try to do a change without making too many helium owners unhappy...why not doing X3, or X4? If we stick with the reality sensors in the sea can reach farther than 50km easily...
Avatar
@groot , here is the backup fspl for AU915, 30db limit, the loss is 101.7db which is well under the receive floor of ~-130db , i acknowledge FSPL is a perfect case situation, but you should acknowledge when your incorrect
Avatar
Again.the Hip58 try to stop the gamers can be seen as a method which is hitting without any dinstictions legit and legal miners together with gamers....
Avatar
Avatar
Stefz
Guys the 100km is based on the assumption that sensors reach maximum of 50km. Than they doubled up this number. The latter operation is kind of try to do a change without making too many helium owners unhappy...why not doing X3, or X4? If we stick with the reality sensors in the sea can reach farther than 50km easily...
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/18/2022 2:47 AM
Not assumptions. Data.
Avatar
@ElonTusk | 5Gchipped I ve already expressed myself about talking with you. Respect it!
Avatar
Avatar
Stefz
@ElonTusk | 5Gchipped I ve already expressed myself about talking with you. Respect it!
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/18/2022 2:47 AM
Demanding respect earns you none.
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Not assumptions. Data.
your data is skewed or flawed obviously and the existence of a whole page of https://www.google.com/search?q=lora+sensor+with+external+aerial& results agrees
Avatar
@ElonTusk | 5Gchipped respect is due. And now you just confirmed you disrespect people. For me you can just be ignored! Full stop!
🤨 1
Avatar
Avatar
MoreDPS
@groot , here is the backup fspl for AU915, 30db limit, the loss is 101.7db which is well under the receive floor of ~-130db , i acknowledge FSPL is a perfect case situation, but you should acknowledge when your incorrect
Avatar
Use cases of sensors used on boats can reach farther than 50km...sea Los and reflection in the water helps a lot...
Avatar
Avatar
MoreDPS
your data is skewed or flawed obviously and the existence of a whole page of https://www.google.com/search?q=lora+sensor+with+external+aerial& results agrees
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/18/2022 2:51 AM
Your google search is not data, and the community overwhelmingly disagrees with you.
💯 1
Avatar
Avatar
groot
Click to see attachment 🖼️
even if you use 17 as your first figure (the limit is 30db anyay) its 114.7db still lots of room under ~-130
Avatar
Nobody really realizes the fact that this hip58 hits without a dinstictions gamers and legit setups? Don't you really see that? Gamers reach amazing earnings not only due to farther witnessing but especially for.the frequency of their POC....
02:53
They witness every 2-3 minutes guys....😉
Avatar
china @433 mhz is even worse off @ 100km their frequency attenuates 6db less than 928mhz for 100km , thats only 4x stronger
Avatar
Avatar
MoreDPS
even if you use 17 as your first figure (the limit is 30db anyay) its 114.7db still lots of room under ~-130
Why would I care about what the limit is, you show me a sensor and say 'this proves you're wrong' and the fact is that sensor doesn't do 30dBm, something you should've figured out instead of having me go through the datasheets. Using FSPL to prove you are right is also stretching it since FSPL works in space, not in some desert in Australia. The fact stays, give some good data on sensors reaching insane distances in your HIP to revise the limit and I'm sure people will agree if the data is any good.
👆 1
💯 1
Avatar
i showed you a whole page of sensors. its not hard to look at the google link
facepalm 1
Avatar
Avatar
groot
Why would I care about what the limit is, you show me a sensor and say 'this proves you're wrong' and the fact is that sensor doesn't do 30dBm, something you should've figured out instead of having me go through the datasheets. Using FSPL to prove you are right is also stretching it since FSPL works in space, not in some desert in Australia. The fact stays, give some good data on sensors reaching insane distances in your HIP to revise the limit and I'm sure people will agree if the data is any good.
and the fact remains that there are many sensors that will go over 100km and your assertation otherwise is incorrect (edited)
Avatar
Avatar
MoreDPS
i showed you a whole page of sensors. its not hard to look at the google link
DigitalHuevos🥚 04/18/2022 2:55 AM
Why would he go look. Your the one trying to argue the point?
👆 1
Avatar
I'm not going to make your argument for you, you made the claim, you should back it up. I've already went out of my way to refute on of your sensors and now you expect me to go through every potential sensor to prove you are wrong? That's not how this works.
💯 1
Avatar
Avatar
Stefz
Nobody really realizes the fact that this hip58 hits without a dinstictions gamers and legit setups? Don't you really see that? Gamers reach amazing earnings not only due to farther witnessing but especially for.the frequency of their POC....
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/18/2022 2:56 AM
1%... shrug
Avatar
BoroMiner870 04/18/2022 2:56 AM
Anyway I didn't come here to argue with anyone. I have made my point and feel it's valid. Will leave it to the community. Decisions will be made based on the majority view which seems to be based on earnings and gamers of the system and not the technology.
Avatar
Avatar
MoreDPS
even if you use 17 as your first figure (the limit is 30db anyay) its 114.7db still lots of room under ~-130
feuerkralle2011 04/18/2022 2:56 AM
FSPL isn't including weather, atmosphere or anything else we have on earth (obstructions). So it seems that, with 15db to max, we have hit a good range with 100km max POC (not max data range!)
Avatar
Avatar
BoroMiner870
Anyway I didn't come here to argue with anyone. I have made my point and feel it's valid. Will leave it to the community. Decisions will be made based on the majority view which seems to be based on earnings and gamers of the system and not the technology.
DigitalHuevos🥚 04/18/2022 2:57 AM
Decisions were already made. But always welcome to voice opinions
Avatar
Avatar
groot
I'm not going to make your argument for you, you made the claim, you should back it up. I've already went out of my way to refute on of your sensors and now you expect me to go through every potential sensor to prove you are wrong? That's not how this works.
physics proves you wrong , this is 3db of power most device more powerful.
facepalm 1
Avatar
Are you deploying those sensors out in space or some other vacuum? Otherwise it proves nothing.
👍 1
☝️ 1
Avatar
Avatar
MoreDPS
physics proves you wrong , this is 3db of power most device more powerful.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/18/2022 2:58 AM
Well you better start deploying these magical devices so you have some data to back up your claims.
Avatar
Avatar
groot
Are you deploying those sensors out in space or some other vacuum? Otherwise it proves nothing.
feuerkralle2011 04/18/2022 2:58 AM
Hyperloop speed sensor 😄
Avatar
All FSPL wil ever be useful for is providing an upper bound, e.g. it won't ever get any better than this. You can't use it to show feasibility.
💯 1
Avatar
My question is: what does it change even in the case that someone will prove his or her datas here? Isn't it irrelevant? Isn't it the only way to go to propose a new hip? I must agree with the people who say that probably it s just a waste of time keep discussing something which clearly passed
Avatar
@groot you asked you receive https://dwmzone.com/en/dragino/795-lsn50-v2-ip68-waterproof-long-range-wireless-lora-sensor-node-with-external-antenna.html LoRa Spec 168 dB maximum link budget. +20 dBm - 100 mW constant RF output vs. +14 dBm high efficiency PA.
LSN50-V2 IP68 Waterproof Long Range Wireless LoRa Sensor Node with external antenna,It is designed for outdoor use and powered by Li/SOCl2 battery for long term use.
🤣 1
Avatar
20 isn't 30, it's not even close. Actually it shows more my point than yours. (edited)
Avatar
Avatar
Stefz
My question is: what does it change even in the case that someone will prove his or her datas here? Isn't it irrelevant? Isn't it the only way to go to propose a new hip? I must agree with the people who say that probably it s just a waste of time keep discussing something which clearly passed
feuerkralle2011 04/18/2022 3:01 AM
You need to convince the community that your HIP is an improvement to the current state of the network. Without valid data you can not convince someone
Avatar
127 dB Dynamic Range RSSI.
😆 1
Avatar
Avatar
groot
20 isn't 30, it's not even close. Actually it shows more my point than yours. (edited)
@groot you couldnt be more incorrect, agin you asked for the numbers and now you have a device , with specs, and the distance it will go , will you still ignore it?
🤣 1
Avatar
@feuerkralle2011 I m gonna take the way of probably trying to write a new one. I may be wrong but I see some people with closed mind here even in front of evidence. Allow me not to go further😉
Avatar
Avatar
MoreDPS
@groot you couldnt be more incorrect, agin you asked for the numbers and now you have a device , with specs, and the distance it will go , will you still ignore it?
feuerkralle2011 04/18/2022 3:03 AM
FSPL is still ignoring our atmosphere tho
Avatar
Avatar
MoreDPS
@groot you couldnt be more incorrect, agin you asked for the numbers and now you have a device , with specs, and the distance it will go , will you still ignore it?
Sure, I'm incorrect, you are some magnificent being that achieves perfect FSPL. Have it your way, propose it in your HIP. Do some field testing too, NASA might contract you after your breakthroughs.
😂 1
Avatar
Guys this is really not the way to go..this chat lack of respect too much. Sorry to see that. This is against helium community spirit!
🤣 1
Avatar
Avatar
Stefz
@feuerkralle2011 I m gonna take the way of probably trying to write a new one. I may be wrong but I see some people with closed mind here even in front of evidence. Allow me not to go further😉
feuerkralle2011 04/18/2022 3:04 AM
To be fair. It's good to argue about the max distance but I haven't seen any valid data on the case that we NEED a higher distance then 100km at this point
💯 1
☝️ 1
Avatar
@feuerkralle2011 I will take care of that with some engineers working in my company and will keep you updated with some results achieved. I don't wanna talk to much here. This chat became a jungle.
Avatar
Avatar
feuerkralle2011
To be fair. It's good to argue about the max distance but I haven't seen any valid data on the case that we NEED a higher distance then 100km at this point
It amazes me that 'data is just data and not real world' when it suits the outcome, yet when we need FSPL to justify our point the real world doesn't matter anymore?
😏 1
Avatar
Avatar
groot
It amazes me that 'data is just data and not real world' when it suits the outcome, yet when we need FSPL to justify our point the real world doesn't matter anymore?
feuerkralle2011 04/18/2022 3:07 AM
We have a say here in germany, even if our point is stupid, that is: "Passt mir in den Kram" which translates to something like "it fits for me so I dont care" 😄
😄 1
Avatar
Avatar
Stefz
@feuerkralle2011 I will take care of that with some engineers working in my company and will keep you updated with some results achieved. I don't wanna talk to much here. This chat became a jungle.
feuerkralle2011 04/18/2022 3:08 AM
If you get your HIP ready, with data that proves the point, then I'm more then willing to support it
Avatar
@feuerkralle2011 that s exactly the wrong approach I see in this chat. If the point is not agreed it s treated as ridiculous or stupid. Again lack of respect towards other s opinion. It s bad to see that.
Avatar
Avatar
groot
Sure, I'm incorrect, you are some magnificent being that achieves perfect FSPL. Have it your way, propose it in your HIP. Do some field testing too, NASA might contract you after your breakthroughs.
exactly why hip-59 was started , so it could be done without the head in the sand attitude from HIP58 , acknowledge there is no technical merit to the arbitrary number 100km , when HIP58 shouldve been under HIP-49 to begin with (edited)
Avatar
@feuerkralle2011 thank you I need to work on that and I let you know how it goes. I m not able to provide it in 2-3 days. First some data's and technical arguments than we move on
Avatar
Avatar
Stefz
@feuerkralle2011 that s exactly the wrong approach I see in this chat. If the point is not agreed it s treated as ridiculous or stupid. Again lack of respect towards other s opinion. It s bad to see that.
feuerkralle2011 04/18/2022 3:10 AM
Thats because we here the same "evidence" here over and over and after some digging into the numbers this evidence was just invalid mumbling
💯 1
Avatar
@feuerkralle2011 that s not the right approach there is no justification on that. Sorry to say and to see this (nothing against you don't take me wrong)
Avatar
Avatar
Stefz
@feuerkralle2011 that s exactly the wrong approach I see in this chat. If the point is not agreed it s treated as ridiculous or stupid. Again lack of respect towards other s opinion. It s bad to see that.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/18/2022 3:11 AM
lack of respect for non-existent data.
Avatar
@ElonTusk | 5Gchipped you lack respect towards people. So you should not even talk!
facepalm 1
Avatar
Avatar
Stefz
@feuerkralle2011 that s not the right approach there is no justification on that. Sorry to say and to see this (nothing against you don't take me wrong)
feuerkralle2011 04/18/2022 3:12 AM
Yeah it's not the best approach but it's still human to be annoyed at some point if you hear the same phrases over and over. It's of best interest to be respectful but coping with a lot of nonsense makes it difficult (edited)
Avatar
Avatar
Stefz
@ElonTusk | 5Gchipped you lack respect towards people. So you should not even talk!
No offence, but that is not exactly respectful either.
Avatar
Avatar
Stefz
@ElonTusk | 5Gchipped you lack respect towards people. So you should not even talk!
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/18/2022 3:12 AM
So you want to silence me because you don't like what I say?
Avatar
@groot I told him already several time..enough is enough!
03:13
@feuerkralle2011 understand and I ve already said my opinions, ideas and move from now on😉
03:13
Have a good Monday everyone!
03:14
👍
Avatar
Avatar
Stefz
@groot I told him already several time..enough is enough!
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/18/2022 3:14 AM
I'm allowed to disagree with incorrect info.
Avatar
The LoRa Alliance has specified two frequency bands for LoRa technology in China. These bands are the CN470-510 from 470 to 510 MHz and the CN779-787 from 779 to 787 MHz.
03:21
it is affecting not just one region or particular device (edited)
03:24
limiting the ability of lots of legitimate sensors and thats the networks customers.
03:27
sensors dont always use onmi directional , it would be better to use a directional yagi or parabolic in long distance if that is has LOS to the nearest hotspot over 100km. (edited)
Avatar
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 04/18/2022 3:27 AM
That's ignoring buildings, atmosphere , hills etc
03:27
Just because it says it can doesn't mean it will in real life (edited)
💯 1
03:27
I suggest trying to get 100km+ with a sensor to learn
03:27
I struggle to get them to do 20km
Avatar
no but 22 db difference @433mhz is alot
03:28
its not a small amount
Avatar
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 04/18/2022 3:28 AM
We have 16dbm in europe
03:28
And that works just fine
Avatar
i can find you a europe example?
03:29
the right antenna makes all the difference and the placement. but i agree FSPL is perfect case
03:29
its not realistic and more loss is to be expected
👍 1
03:29
but not that much , especially in rural areas where there is no channel noise
03:30
and thats the areas where the hotspots goint to be visible over 100km predominantly
Avatar
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 04/18/2022 3:30 AM
Sure, but again, little sensors with tiny antennas won't reach that far
👆 1
Avatar
Avatar
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
Sure, but again, little sensors with tiny antennas won't reach that far
dont use the tiny anytennas
facepalm 1
Avatar
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 04/18/2022 3:31 AM
Walk around with an 8dbi in my hands?
Avatar
3db is easily manageable. or a 6db i do it on the roof daily
Avatar
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 04/18/2022 3:32 AM
These are typical sensors, incase you havnt seen any
Avatar
Avatar
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
Walk around with an 8dbi in my hands?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/18/2022 3:32 AM
8ft comet. lol
Avatar
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 04/18/2022 3:32 AM
03:32
I can't add a 3dbi...
Avatar
Avatar
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
These are typical sensors, incase you havnt seen any
typical sensors are fixed location
Avatar
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 04/18/2022 3:33 AM
Nor would I want to
Avatar
Avatar
MoreDPS
typical sensors are fixed location
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 04/18/2022 3:33 AM
Not true
03:33
One of heliums biggest use cases is asset tracking (edited)
👍 1
Avatar
Avatar
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
Not true
light posts , and council monitoring devices like manholes etc are fixed.
Avatar
Soil moisture sensor, thermometer etc etc
Avatar
i agree there is both
Avatar
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 04/18/2022 3:34 AM
Sure, so we go with the AVG of what sensors are
Avatar
I go all day long in my hands walking through the city with a thermometer I must admit
Avatar
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 04/18/2022 3:34 AM
And the AVG sensor will do 50km
03:34
So it was doubled to 100km for headroom
👍 1
Avatar
But I also use in in farms...
Avatar
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 04/18/2022 3:35 AM
PoC is a simulation of sensors
👆 1
💯 1
passed 1
Avatar
Why double and not triple?
facepalm 1
03:35
Less headaches I believe...
Avatar
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 04/18/2022 3:35 AM
Because it's too much and won't help with what it was for
💯 1
Avatar
Avatar
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
So it was doubled to 100km for headroom
average sensor shouldnt be a metric of cheaper products ability versus quality products
Avatar
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 04/18/2022 3:35 AM
If anything let's lower it to 75
😅 1
Avatar
So I suggest to stick with 50km and not double that would be more coherent
Avatar
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 04/18/2022 3:35 AM
Yeah
03:36
Imagine the uproar, that's why they doubled it
👍 1
Avatar
Normal sensors don't reach more than 20-30km
👍 1
03:36
Let s be logical than. No randoms!
03:36
But from day 1...now bit late no?
👎 1
Avatar
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 04/18/2022 3:36 AM
100km was seen as sensible
Avatar
100km was seen as a random number
facepalm 1
👎 1
Avatar
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 04/18/2022 3:37 AM
It wasn't just plucked from thin air , I and many believe it's the right call so voted for it
💯 1
Avatar
Therefore let s do it 166km I like this
🙄 1
Avatar
my point is a one distance limit for all is the worst approach there are differnt regions with diff TX and diff freq, its should be under HIP-49 regional
Avatar
Hip49 passed or not?
Avatar
Avatar
MoreDPS
my point is a one distance limit for all is the worst approach there are differnt regions with diff TX and diff freq, its should be under HIP-49 regional
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 04/18/2022 3:37 AM
Write a hip
👆 1
Avatar
it didnt do the one thing it claimed to do either and that was stop gamers, because the gamers simply asserted themselves inside 100km
😆 1
Avatar
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 04/18/2022 3:38 AM
Or ask the authors of 49 to consider a regional limit , but anyone with a lower limit will kick off and probably not vote for it
Avatar
Agree. The writing of the hip is the only way to go. Spending hours here doesn't help
👍 1
03:38
Gamers have high consistency.jn witness
Avatar
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 04/18/2022 3:38 AM
Hip58 is passed
03:38
We can alter it with a new hip
Avatar
Not only distance....
Avatar
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 04/18/2022 3:38 AM
Or replace it with a hip
03:39
Writing here doesn't help
Avatar
@BFGNeil - Trackpac.io yeah mate
03:39
Agreed
03:39
The gamers have huge witnessing consistency every 2-3 minutes...which account for huge reward.... Hip58 killed the distance not the frequency
Avatar
Avatar
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
Or ask the authors of 49 to consider a regional limit , but anyone with a lower limit will kick off and probably not vote for it
If 49 gets approved…
👍 2
Avatar
Avatar
Stefz
The gamers have huge witnessing consistency every 2-3 minutes...which account for huge reward.... Hip58 killed the distance not the frequency
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/18/2022 3:40 AM
HIP42 & 44
Avatar
I’m not a fan as it seems primarily focused on milking PoC. Sensors aren’t going to think, oh well now I’m in this subregion, let me drain my battery just because I can. (ed: hip 49 for clarity) (edited)
👆 1
Avatar
and putting the limit under HIP-49 to be governed by complaince of what local devices are legally allowed to do in their region , it would help discourage people breaking EIRP.
Avatar
Avatar
MoreDPS
and putting the limit under HIP-49 to be governed by complaince of what local devices are legally allowed to do in their region , it would help discourage people breaking EIRP.
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 04/18/2022 3:42 AM
Suggest that in 49 then see what the authors think
03:42
Personally I think any hip that says you can have a 100km limit here but 200 there (for example) won't pass
👆 1
Avatar
its simply whats allowed in your country based on frequency and TX strength
😆 1
Avatar
Avatar
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
Personally I think any hip that says you can have a 100km limit here but 200 there (for example) won't pass
The whole rules for thee but not for me crowd will go wild, that’s for sure.
Avatar
its the best soltuon for network coverage and performance
Avatar
Avatar
MoreDPS
its simply whats allowed in your country based on frequency and TX strength
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 04/18/2022 3:43 AM
Provide data to prove it then
Avatar
I suggest based on the argument of the sensors to write a hip for real sensors which means max 30km... We will destroy helium expansion but sensors will be heared 100%
Avatar
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 04/18/2022 3:43 AM
Go out with a irl sensor
Avatar
And people who now defend sensors coverage will turn against it all of a sudden
Avatar
Avatar
MoreDPS
its simply whats allowed in your country based on frequency and TX strength
Disregarding SF, SF12 can handle approx 8dB more than SF9.
Avatar
Avatar
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
Go out with a irl sensor
i agree with the point your making on FSPL there needs to be an added loss.
Avatar
Avatar
MoreDPS
i agree with the point your making on FSPL there needs to be an added loss.
I might be putting some effort in getting fspl_decay reinstated. Bye bye wrongly asserted hotspots😀 (talking kms here not meters) (edited)
Avatar
Avatar
groot
I might be putting some effort in getting fspl_decay reinstated. Bye bye wrongly asserted hotspots😀 (talking kms here not meters) (edited)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/18/2022 3:46 AM
Not like it really ever worked... (edited)
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Not like it really ever worked... (edited)
It was put at 0.7 at start of pocv11 but that appeared to be to harsh
Avatar
Avatar
groot
It was put at 0.7 at start of pocv11 but that appeared to be to harsh
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/18/2022 3:48 AM
maybe I'm thinking of when it was turned off, but it seemed to have no effect.
Avatar
Avatar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
maybe I'm thinking of when it was turned off, but it seemed to have no effect.
Its not turned on now, and has never been for longer than 3 hours.
Avatar
Avatar
groot
Its not turned on now, and has never been for longer than 3 hours.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/18/2022 3:49 AM
ahhh very short lived
03:49
That explains a lot
Avatar
Avatar
groot
I might be putting some effort in getting fspl_decay reinstated. Bye bye wrongly asserted hotspots😀 (talking kms here not meters) (edited)
this may also adversly affect legal pre-amps , the custom antenna section leaves ALOT to be desired such as seperate TX &RX gain , pre-amp field for gain.
Avatar
Avatar
MoreDPS
this may also adversly affect legal pre-amps , the custom antenna section leaves ALOT to be desired such as seperate TX &RX gain , pre-amp field for gain.
It doesn’t, you can’t output more than your regions max. If you go over by pre-amp, not legal.
👆 1
Avatar
receive pre-amp only
03:51
not power amp
Avatar
To be frank, why would you need such a thing with the insane sensitivity a lora concentrator has.
Avatar
you can easily use circulators to split RX & TX into seperate antennas.
❌ 1
Avatar
If you want to use a amp, use the highest gain of any of your paths, be that tx or rx.
Avatar
too high gain on pre-amp will make invalid witness if the RSSI comes in to high afaik. also a potential limiting point.
Avatar
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 04/18/2022 3:56 AM
All that's being said here is I want to earn more from PoC, not focusing on sensor usage in the slightest, it's going to be a culture shock as DC usage grows , and when some of the spillover goes to 5g
👆 1
Avatar
i stay within legal EIRP if anyones wondering , ive got a license in the industry its not worth breaking
Avatar
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 04/18/2022 3:57 AM
You want to be focusing this attention on growing usage in your area
💯 1
Avatar
If you have a 8dBi rx antenna with 3dBi pre amp you put in 11 dBi, it’s not rocket science. If you go the custom route it is your responsibility to figure these things out.
Avatar
yes but seperate aerials may have different gain for RX and TX , as one aerial may not be omnidirectional always either.
03:58
sensors it better to use yagi direct to nearest (generally depending on terrain) (edited)
Avatar
Actually we use a panel antenna to direct better the coverage in remote areas where sensors are deployed
Avatar
Avatar
MoreDPS
sensors it better to use yagi direct to nearest (generally depending on terrain) (edited)
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 04/18/2022 4:00 AM
Not every sensor will be fixed place
Avatar
not but those installation that are a directinal to the nearest fixed hotspot would be
04:01
ill agree mobile sensors omnis better
04:02
fixed not so always
Avatar
We can't make statement that sensor is only one kind...there are both options available and used...
Avatar
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 04/18/2022 4:03 AM
I'd say directional is overkill in most places, but sure, for remote static placements, yes it could be good
Avatar
We need to think for all use cases to be clear
04:06
What i was highlighting several times is that this hip58 killed some farther than100km witnessing done by miners deployed to provide sensor coverage which due to location could witness Farther than 100km. Some of the clients owning them decided not to expand further after hip58 passed cause they felt betrayed (forgive me.the.expression)... So it should always be taken into consideration all.the pros.and cons not only from technical.side (there are investments done for existing installs which need to be paid back)...it s worthed a deeper thought (edited)
👍🏼 1
👆 1
👎 1
Avatar
legal receive only pre amp could increase the actual witness range further, as long as signal doesnt get too much noise in the process. and is currently adversly affected by its lack of input field by potentially having RSSI too high , because there only one field for gainand receive and they will be different (edited)
Avatar
Who speaks hate gamers and cheaters but i need to testify that in reality some hotspots in certain areas (mainly on hills, rural lands, on poles) due to their exceptional location used to provide sensor coverage got penalized by this hip... And yeah people weren't happy..in a phase where we need to expand it s controversial this move...
04:11
I believe this consequence was not deeply taken into consideration as.who wrote this hip.wrote in githup "very few hotspots will be affected by non relevant reduction"... I Ve already provided some numbers.. averaging 7-15% reduction due to witnessing farthen than 100km... Worthed a deeper look from the community... The GitHub statement was simply wrong.
👍🏼 1
👎 1
Avatar
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 04/18/2022 4:14 AM
A whole 15%
04:15
Damn
Avatar
Avatar
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
A whole 15%
i dont think anyone would be happy if their bank called and said if you deposit $100 , were keeping $15, and if it was only 1% of a bnks customers it affected it would still not be good
Avatar
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 04/18/2022 4:17 AM
I also don't think it's fair to dictate that it needs changing based on it being fine 85% of the time
04:17
And how many hotspots is this 15% coming from
04:17
Could you show the stats?
04:18
And I don't mean just based on a few hotspots
Avatar
Avatar
Stefz
Who speaks hate gamers and cheaters but i need to testify that in reality some hotspots in certain areas (mainly on hills, rural lands, on poles) due to their exceptional location used to provide sensor coverage got penalized by this hip... And yeah people weren't happy..in a phase where we need to expand it s controversial this move...
thats why the vote information pages need a pro and con section by different authors.
04:18
were only getting one side in the vote information by the proponent
04:19
the info wasnt entirely accuarate and was the infomation most people only read to make a decision
Avatar
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 04/18/2022 4:21 AM
The vote is meant to be impartial
04:21
No pros or cons
Avatar
its not if only one side presents information
Avatar
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 04/18/2022 4:21 AM
Just the reasons for doing it
Avatar
@BFGNeil - Trackpac.io i manage a fleet of 22 miners. Losses average from 7 to 15% in accounting of the last 90 days period (i used Groot app). The miner more affected is on top of a tower...but yeah I provided those data's here and i just wanted to point out that reduction won't be irrelevant....
Avatar
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 04/18/2022 4:21 AM
The hip on the other hand
Avatar
if you vent to political vote and only one party was able to advertise on the offical ballot who would likely win?
Avatar
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 04/18/2022 4:21 AM
Is meant to be both
Avatar
Avatar
Stefz
@BFGNeil - Trackpac.io i manage a fleet of 22 miners. Losses average from 7 to 15% in accounting of the last 90 days period (i used Groot app). The miner more affected is on top of a tower...but yeah I provided those data's here and i just wanted to point out that reduction won't be irrelevant....
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 04/18/2022 4:21 AM
So we base this off 22/700k (edited)
04:22
Makes sense
Avatar
@MoreDPS totally agree
04:23
@BFGNeil - Trackpac.io hahahah well that s me don't make such a statement you.are more intelligent than that!
04:23
Just check what others wrote here on the channel...
04:24
There are not only 1-2 people unhappy and i don't call them gamers....
Avatar
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 04/18/2022 4:24 AM
What others have written is they want to earn more from poc
04:24
And not focusing on what the networks for, data usage
04:25
Which will mean they'll always be unhappy earning less
Avatar
@BFGNeil - Trackpac.io no. The information you are.providing is not complete. There have been people argumenting.and debating with numbers and datas. Don't talk like there are only those avidity on their ideas...that s not nice not correct
04:26
Just check better the messages in the previous days to have a better idea
Avatar
I have a background in RF so lots of network side things i havent learnt yet, but once light hotspots are up and network load is shifted, a reduction in beacon interval to provide more reliable earning would be good if possible (edited)
Avatar
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 04/18/2022 4:26 AM
I've been keeping tabs
Avatar
So if you kept tabs you can see some numbers
Avatar
Avatar
MoreDPS
I have a background in RF so lots of network side things i havent learnt yet, but once light hotspots are up and network load is shifted, a reduction in beacon interval to provide more reliable earning would be good if possible (edited)
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 04/18/2022 4:26 AM
Should be
Avatar
Avatar
Stefz
So if you kept tabs you can see some numbers
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 04/18/2022 4:26 AM
It's not 15%
Avatar
Avatar
mixtri
Hip58 victim. Cyprus.
Same scenario with my miners in Limassol any suggestions on my next move .... maybe move my miners to a basement and forget the coverage part....
Avatar
I can tell you one of miner i m managing could have a reduction of 16%
04:27
Based on Groot's app 90 days period. Numbers are numbers
Avatar
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 04/18/2022 4:27 AM
1/700k? Didn't we just go over this? (edited)
Avatar
Do you really believe it s only one out of 700k? (edited)
04:27
Ok feel free....
04:28
If you don't wanna see the problem i believe i expressed myself enough
04:28
For the last week....so enough is enough...
Avatar
most of my hotspots ive put out their owners dont know how to conect to wifi , they arent going to be on discord complaining
Avatar
Avatar
Stefz
For the last week....so enough is enough...
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 04/18/2022 4:29 AM
Sounds good! We're just wasting effort here
04:29
If you want to talk about data I'd love to help, you know actually keep this network alive so there is a point to having them
Avatar
Avatar
firecy
Same scenario with my miners in Limassol any suggestions on my next move .... maybe move my miners to a basement and forget the coverage part....
I would go for a panel antenna to NOT cover the sea towards Turkey, Lebanon and Israel. At the end you want to make PoC work the best if there is not much data yet. (edited)
Avatar
I just feel unfair speaking of people not agreeing on this hip like they are full of avidity thinking only about their rewards. And with data's i showed the statements in githup were wrong which could have lead to a not correct interpretation of the vote....that s all i say... (edited)
Avatar
and the gamers werent affected if that hurt their setup their reasserted within 100km
Avatar
@MoreDPS not at all. They have huge consistentcy.in the frequency of witnessing regardless the distance
04:32
This hasn't been addressed as far as i know
04:32
They just shoot a lot more than a normal hotspot...just a metaphore..
04:34
Being able to witness much more than a normal and legit hotspot
Avatar
Avatar
Stefz
Being able to witness much more than a normal and legit hotspot
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 04/18/2022 4:37 AM
#hip-54-h3dex-poc-targeting #hip-55-validator-challenges will both help fix that
Avatar
Thanks
Avatar
Avatar
mixtri
I would go for a panel antenna to NOT cover the sea towards Turkey, Lebanon and Israel. At the end you want to make PoC work the best if there is not much data yet. (edited)
Thanks!
Avatar
on anothr note were more likely too see more people taking avantage of light hotspots and using a 4g mobile solution since it will be alot cheaper to make a solar deployment on top of a hill
Avatar
Original message was deleted or could not be loaded.
Basically cheating to get ‘your’ rewards?
Avatar
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 04/18/2022 5:01 AM
no one forced you to get a bad deal on a tower
05:01
thats on you
Avatar
You will have to invest more when they are on the denylist.
Avatar
hill/mountain for unit once light hotspots go live, so steep the 4wd didnt make it had to use a tractor. (edited)
😂 1
Avatar
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 04/18/2022 5:02 AM
thats over the average for 1 hotspot a month, so yes its a bad deal
☝️ 1
05:04
thats the idea
05:04
as more come on, we will earn less
05:04
it will never increase
05:04
data usage on the other hand
05:04
we will earn more
05:04
so why do you have hotspots then
05:04
you know thats what the hotspots are for right
Avatar
Original message was deleted or could not be loaded.
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 04/18/2022 5:04 AM
Are you trolling again? 🤭
Avatar
Original message was deleted or could not be loaded.
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 04/18/2022 5:05 AM
Yup
Avatar
Original message was deleted or could not be loaded.
Deleted User 04/18/2022 5:06 AM
You’re whining, please be quiet
Avatar
Original message was deleted or could not be loaded.
Promoting cheating is also an option, ban instead of mute?
👍 1
Avatar
Original message was deleted or could not be loaded.
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 04/18/2022 5:06 AM
Filecoin and Helium have been far outpacing other blockchain technologies that provide Web 3 infrastructure. According to Messari's Web3 Index, Filecoin and Helium generated $9.4 million and $14.5 mi...
05:06
quite a bit
Avatar
What do you think is it going to change distance limit?
Avatar
Why did you mute Stinkende Gilbert#5106
Avatar
@Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 don't ban or mute people it s not the way to go
Avatar
Avatar
Stefz
@Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 don't ban or mute people it s not the way to go
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 04/18/2022 5:18 AM
He is been trolling here for a long time. Just saying that you too should take one or to steps back (edited)
Avatar
@Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 i don't allow u to talk to me like that. I express my ideas and opinions. If u wanna do any censorship feel.free it s your call!
Avatar
Avatar
Stefz
@Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 i don't allow u to talk to me like that. I express my ideas and opinions. If u wanna do any censorship feel.free it s your call!
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 04/18/2022 5:20 AM
Houserules, try if you dare
Avatar
Feel free.to mute or ban me to express my opinion and we call it a real community
Avatar
Avatar
Stefz
Feel free.to mute or ban me to express my opinion and we call it a real community
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 04/18/2022 5:20 AM
You have the right of free speech,. not the right to shit talk
Avatar
Never done it. Shit talk it s on you now!
Avatar
Avatar
Stefz
Never done it. Shit talk it s on you now!
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 04/18/2022 5:21 AM
Final warning mate, don't provoke it
Avatar
I repeat i only express my opinion. And with respect always. Stop treating people!
Avatar
Avatar
Stefz
I repeat i only express my opinion. And with respect always. Stop treating people!
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 04/18/2022 5:22 AM
You are free, but if i catch you whining here one more time, Oh it's done (edited)
Avatar
Whining?
Avatar
It sounds like folks are looking at their day-to-day drop in earnings to assess the impact of HIP 58, but the better metric is to look at the number of witness events > 100km as a fraction of the total number of witness events. there is a great dashboard for this in ETL that ElonTusk shared earlier. daily earnings will fluctuate significantly based on the entropy in the network, as well as overall block processing times. when you look at > 100km events, it's usually 1) not that many compared to all the witnessing you do < 50km or so 2) extremely sparse. your tower may witness another tower once every couple weeks, but this doesn't really indicate reliability in coverage at this distance https://discord.com/channels/404106811252408320/960583430612070420/965398293096042557
Avatar
I repeat to stop threaten people. I express my opinion freely with all the respect!
Avatar
Avatar
Stefz
I repeat to stop threaten people. I express my opinion freely with all the respect!
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 04/18/2022 5:22 AM
Final warning
Avatar
Stinkende Gilbert#5106. Why did you mute him. You cant mute who talks excelt you
Avatar
Avatar
Bcagatay53
Stinkende Gilbert#5106. Why did you mute him. You cant mute who talks excelt you
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 04/18/2022 5:23 AM
He is trolling, just as always
Avatar
My.opinions are expressed with respect. Always. Any threaten won't be accepted.
Avatar
Avatar
Stefz
My.opinions are expressed with respect. Always. Any threaten won't be accepted.
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 04/18/2022 5:23 AM
Okay
Avatar
Respect is always due. Simple. I apply and expect same rule👍
Avatar
Avatar
Stefz
Respect is always due. Simple. I apply and expect same rule👍
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 04/18/2022 5:24 AM
If you respect the rules and the netiquette we cool (edited)
Avatar
Absolutely. If you.check my.messages.they are always polite and respectful. I express ideas and opinions with respect. Always.
Avatar
Avatar
Stefz
Absolutely. If you.check my.messages.they are always polite and respectful. I express ideas and opinions with respect. Always.
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 04/18/2022 5:25 AM
I alright, i hold you on to that 😉
Avatar
There is no need to threat Stefz, as i m able to express them politely😉
05:26
If u help me.to maintain this discussion clean and neat you.get an ally (me)
Avatar
Why is this channel still open?
Avatar
Unfortunately not always when people come.complaining.for.their rewards they get treated with respect (i m not talking about me)
Avatar
Avatar
Nian
Why is this channel still open?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 04/18/2022 5:27 AM
because we have to wait for an admin to close them
05:27
coolcry
coolcry 3
Avatar
@Nian agree with you!
👍 1
05:33
As said before it s pointless to keep discussing about hip58 which passed. Now it s time.to move with a new hip if people disagree. Period
kek 1
Avatar
So much hotspot owner was gaming with this exploit. With this HIP, hacker will stop to install false hotspot and we will have more reel witness
06:00
I had a beacon with 14 witness and only one was reel. All other 13 was over 1000km! And one in Hawaii. Man.. i'm on the east canada lol
06:00
All this fake witness will become true witness to my neighboor
Avatar
Avatar
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪
You are free, but if i catch you whining here one more time, Oh it's done (edited)
BoroMiner870 04/18/2022 6:10 AM
I'm new to helium.....it seems this is not the community for me anymore...the folks in leadership here seem to have had the power go-to their heads. Glad I have not invested heavily yet.
Avatar
Avatar
BoroMiner870
I'm new to helium.....it seems this is not the community for me anymore...the folks in leadership here seem to have had the power go-to their heads. Glad I have not invested heavily yet.
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 04/18/2022 6:11 AM
You've been here for a year...
😅 2
Avatar
Avatar
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪
You've been here for a year...
BoroMiner870 04/18/2022 6:11 AM
Just got my miner last month
👍 3
Avatar
As said this morning this channel became a jungle... hope It will improve with time...sad to see such a show
Avatar
archiving this channel, thanks all
👍 7
Exported 4,752 message(s)